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#1: AL GM's leery about obtaining NL pitchers

Posted on 2006-07-18 18:42:20 by jwragusa

Due to the relative strengths of the leagues, it seems being a "pretty
good" pitcher in the NL might only translate to "getting rocked" in the
AL:

<a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=2521701&amp;lpos=spotlight&amp;lid=tab4pos1" target="_blank"> http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=2521701&amp;l pos=spotlight&amp;lid=tab4pos1</a>

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#2: Re: AL GM's leery about obtaining NL pitchers

Posted on 2006-07-18 23:14:03 by Raymond DiPerna

<a href="mailto:jwragusa&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">jwragusa&#64;aol.com</a> wrote:
&gt; Due to the relative strengths of the leagues, it seems being a &quot;pretty
&gt; good&quot; pitcher in the NL might only translate to &quot;getting rocked&quot; in the
&gt; AL:
&gt;
&gt; <a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=2521701&amp;lpos=spotlight&amp;lid=tab4pos1" target="_blank"> http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=2521701&amp;l pos=spotlight&amp;lid=tab4pos1</a>

The problem is that the writer doesn't present a systematic study of
the pitching/hitting in the two leagues; he simply cherry picks some
pitchers in the AL (Clement, Pavano, Randy Johnson, and Loaiza) who
have pitched worse than they did recently in the NL, and proclaims that
this means that the NL is hugely inferior to the AL.

Even if we examine those four pitchers, it's hard to draw the
conclusion that the AL is so much better:

Pavano had a career year in 2003 and didn't have great peripherals that
year anyway, which meant that some decline was expected. More
importantly, he's been hurt for the last year and a half.

Johnson is 42 years old.

Clement (6.61 ERA this year) did have a 3.68 ERA in the NL in 2004; but
the writer neglects to mention that Clement wasn't nearly this bad
_last year_ in the AL (4.57 ERA).

He mentions that Loaiza has gone from a 3.77 ERA in the NL last year to
a 6.34 ERA in the AL this year. But is the writer _really_ claiming
that the AL affects pitchers _that_ much? Note the ERA increases from
2005 to 2006 for the following pitchers who have NOT switched leagues:

Pettitte: 2.39 to 4.99
Peavy: 2.88 to 4.78
L. Hernandez: 3.98 to 5.87
Lieber: 4.20 to 5.56
D. Willis: 2.63 to 3.80

The only interesting thing I can see that is happening between the two
leagues is that the NL is scoring as many runs as the AL now for the
first time in this era of offense.

--Ray

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#3: Re: AL GM's leery about obtaining NL pitchers

Posted on 2006-07-18 23:23:32 by sfb

A more reasonable interpretation would be the difficulty of assessing an NL
pitcher because they believe the NL teams are as strong at the plate as the
Al teams.

&lt;<a href="mailto:jwragusa&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">jwragusa&#64;aol.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1153240940.432416.85890&#64;75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153240940.432416.85890&#64;75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; Due to the relative strengths of the leagues, it seems being a &quot;pretty
&gt; good&quot; pitcher in the NL might only translate to &quot;getting rocked&quot; in the
&gt; AL:
&gt;
&gt; <a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=2521701&amp;lpos=spotlight&amp;lid=tab4pos1" target="_blank"> http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=2521701&amp;l pos=spotlight&amp;lid=tab4pos1</a>
&gt;

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#4: Re: AL GM's leery about obtaining NL pitchers

Posted on 2006-07-19 04:16:09 by jwragusa

sfb wrote:
&gt; A more reasonable interpretation would be the difficulty of assessing an NL
&gt; pitcher because they believe the NL teams are as strong at the plate as the
&gt; Al teams.
&gt;
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:jwragusa&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">jwragusa&#64;aol.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:1153240940.432416.85890&#64;75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153240940.432416.85890&#64;75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; &gt; Due to the relative strengths of the leagues, it seems being a &quot;pretty
&gt; &gt; good&quot; pitcher in the NL might only translate to &quot;getting rocked&quot; in the
&gt; &gt; AL:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; <a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=2521701&amp;lpos=spotlight&amp;lid=tab4pos1" target="_blank"> http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=2521701&amp;l pos=spotlight&amp;lid=tab4pos1</a>
&gt; &gt;

Whether any of it is true, that's becoming the perception among
management. Best case: Bronson Arroyo. And Denny Neagle is the
opposite. A guy that needs that weak 8th and 9th hitter as a rally
killer. No rally killer in the AL. It's harder to pitch against 9
real hitters. That's what makes Clemens 20 strikeouts (twice yet) more
impressive than Wood's 20.

How many of Wood's strikeouts that game were of the pitcher? Ray,
that's the kind of thing you know about.

Joe

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#5: Re: AL GM's leery about obtaining NL pitchers

Posted on 2006-07-19 15:46:17 by Harold Brooks

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153275369.011233.297450&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153275369.011233.297450&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
<a href="mailto:jwragusa&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">jwragusa&#64;aol.com</a> says...
&gt;
&gt; sfb wrote:
&gt; &gt; A more reasonable interpretation would be the difficulty of assessing an NL
&gt; &gt; pitcher because they believe the NL teams are as strong at the plate as the
&gt; &gt; Al teams.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:jwragusa&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">jwragusa&#64;aol.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt; news:<a href="mailto:1153240940.432416.85890&#64;75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153240940.432416.85890&#64;75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Due to the relative strengths of the leagues, it seems being a &quot;pretty
&gt; &gt; &gt; good&quot; pitcher in the NL might only translate to &quot;getting rocked&quot; in the
&gt; &gt; &gt; AL:
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=2521701&amp;lpos=spotlight&amp;lid=tab4pos1" target="_blank"> http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=2521701&amp;l pos=spotlight&amp;lid=tab4pos1</a>
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt; Whether any of it is true, that's becoming the perception among
&gt; management. Best case: Bronson Arroyo. And Denny Neagle is the
&gt; opposite. A guy that needs that weak 8th and 9th hitter as a rally
&gt; killer. No rally killer in the AL. It's harder to pitch against 9
&gt; real hitters. That's what makes Clemens 20 strikeouts (twice yet) more
&gt; impressive than Wood's 20.
&gt;
&gt; How many of Wood's strikeouts that game were of the pitcher? Ray,
&gt; that's the kind of thing you know about.
&gt;


One. Wood's game came against a team that struck out less than the
teams that Clemens faced.

From retrosheet (<a href="http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B05060CHN1998.htm" target="_blank">http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B05060CHN1998.htm</a>),
Wood's strikeouts were:

Biggio (1)
Bell (2)
Bagwell (3)
Howell (3)
Alou (3)
Clark (2)
Gutierrez (2)
Ausmus (2)
Reynolds (p) (1)
Spiers (1)

Houston finished 4th in the NL for most strikeouts that year (6.93/g,
league average 6.72). They led the NL in scoring (5.40 r/g, league
4.60.)

Clemens's two games

Seattle (<a href="http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B04290BOS1986.htm" target="_blank">http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B04290BOS1986.htm</a>)

Owen (2)
Bradley (4)
Phelps (3)
Thomas (1)
Presley (2)
Calderon (3)
Tartabull (1)
Henderson (3)
Yeager (1)

Seattle led AL for most strikeouts that year (7.09/g, league-5.76).
They were 10th in the league in scoring (4.43 r/g, league-4.61).

Detroit (<a href="http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B04290BOS1986.htm" target="_blank">http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B04290BOS1986.htm</a>)

Higginson (2)
Trammell (1)
Sierra (2)
Clark (3)
Fryman (4)
Nieves (2)
Nevin (2)
Ausmus (1)
Bartee (2)
Hiatt (1)

Detroit led AL for most strikeouts that year (7.83/g, league-6.20).
They were 11th in the league in scoring (4.83 r/g, league=5.39).

Harold
--
Harold Brooks
<a href="mailto:hebrooks87&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">hebrooks87&#64;hotmail.com</a>

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#6: Re: AL GM's leery about obtaining NL pitchers

Posted on 2006-07-19 15:54:26 by David

--
&gt;
&gt; Whether any of it is true, that's becoming the perception among
&gt; management. Best case: Bronson Arroyo. And Denny Neagle is the
&gt; opposite. A guy that needs that weak 8th and 9th hitter as a rally
&gt; killer. No rally killer in the AL. It's harder to pitch against 9
&gt; real hitters. That's what makes Clemens 20 strikeouts (twice yet) more
&gt; impressive than Wood's 20.
&gt;
&gt; How many of Wood's strikeouts that game were of the pitcher? Ray,
&gt; that's the kind of thing you know about.
&gt;
&gt; Joe

Kerry Wood struck the pitcher once. Bagwell &amp; Moises Alo fanned 3 times
each.

Dave Q
&gt;

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#7: Re: AL GM's leery about obtaining NL pitchers

Posted on 2006-07-19 17:13:47 by Raymond DiPerna

Harold E Brooks wrote:
&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153275369.011233.297450&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153275369.011233.297450&#64;s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt; <a href="mailto:jwragusa&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">jwragusa&#64;aol.com</a> says...
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; sfb wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; A more reasonable interpretation would be the difficulty of assessing an NL
&gt; &gt; &gt; pitcher because they believe the NL teams are as strong at the plate as the
&gt; &gt; &gt; Al teams.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:jwragusa&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">jwragusa&#64;aol.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt; &gt; news:<a href="mailto:1153240940.432416.85890&#64;75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153240940.432416.85890&#64;75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Due to the relative strengths of the leagues, it seems being a &quot;pretty
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; good&quot; pitcher in the NL might only translate to &quot;getting rocked&quot; in the
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; AL:
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=2521701&amp;lpos=spotlight&amp;lid=tab4pos1" target="_blank"> http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=2521701&amp;l pos=spotlight&amp;lid=tab4pos1</a>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Whether any of it is true, that's becoming the perception among
&gt; &gt; management. Best case: Bronson Arroyo. And Denny Neagle is the
&gt; &gt; opposite. A guy that needs that weak 8th and 9th hitter as a rally
&gt; &gt; killer. No rally killer in the AL. It's harder to pitch against 9
&gt; &gt; real hitters. That's what makes Clemens 20 strikeouts (twice yet) more
&gt; &gt; impressive than Wood's 20.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; How many of Wood's strikeouts that game were of the pitcher? Ray,
&gt; &gt; that's the kind of thing you know about.
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; One. Wood's game came against a team that struck out less than the
&gt; teams that Clemens faced.
&gt;
&gt; From retrosheet (<a href="http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B05060CHN1998.htm" target="_blank">http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B05060CHN1998.htm</a>),
&gt; Wood's strikeouts were:
&gt;
&gt; Biggio (1)
&gt; Bell (2)
&gt; Bagwell (3)
&gt; Howell (3)
&gt; Alou (3)
&gt; Clark (2)
&gt; Gutierrez (2)
&gt; Ausmus (2)
&gt; Reynolds (p) (1)
&gt; Spiers (1)
&gt;
&gt; Houston finished 4th in the NL for most strikeouts that year (6.93/g,
&gt; league average 6.72). They led the NL in scoring (5.40 r/g, league
&gt; 4.60.)
&gt;
&gt; Clemens's two games
&gt;
&gt; Seattle (<a href="http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B04290BOS1986.htm" target="_blank">http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B04290BOS1986.htm</a>)
&gt;
&gt; Owen (2)
&gt; Bradley (4)
&gt; Phelps (3)
&gt; Thomas (1)
&gt; Presley (2)
&gt; Calderon (3)
&gt; Tartabull (1)
&gt; Henderson (3)
&gt; Yeager (1)
&gt;
&gt; Seattle led AL for most strikeouts that year (7.09/g, league-5.76).
&gt; They were 10th in the league in scoring (4.43 r/g, league-4.61).
&gt;
&gt; Detroit (<a href="http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B04290BOS1986.htm" target="_blank">http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B04290BOS1986.htm</a>)
&gt;
&gt; Higginson (2)
&gt; Trammell (1)
&gt; Sierra (2)
&gt; Clark (3)
&gt; Fryman (4)
&gt; Nieves (2)
&gt; Nevin (2)
&gt; Ausmus (1)
&gt; Bartee (2)
&gt; Hiatt (1)
&gt;
&gt; Detroit led AL for most strikeouts that year (7.83/g, league-6.20).
&gt; They were 11th in the league in scoring (4.83 r/g, league=5.39).

And here's Johnson's 20K game:

Sadler (2)
Castro (2)
Larkin (3)
Ochoa (3)
Boone (1)
Rivera (2)
Reese (2)
Stinnett (2)
Reitsma (2)
Sanders (1)

So he got the pitcher twice.

Cincinnati was 3rd in the NL for most strikeouts that year (7.2/g,
league-6.9).
They were 12th in the league in scoring (4.5 r/g, league-4.70).

What I find interesting is that in each of the four games (Clemens
twice, Wood, Johnson), nobody walked a batter.

Was the home plate umpire calling a particularly large strikezone those
days? Here are what the opposing teams' pitchers did for
walks-strikeouts:

Seattle (Clemens 1): 4 BB, 5 K
Tigers (Clemens 2): 4 BB, 6 K
Reds (Johnson): 4 BB, 6 K
Astros (Wood): 2 BB, 10 K (Reynolds threw a complete game)

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#8: Re: AL GM's leery about obtaining NL pitchers

Posted on 2006-07-20 00:20:10 by Tom MacIntyre

On 18 Jul 2006 19:16:09 -0700, <a href="mailto:jwragusa&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">jwragusa&#64;aol.com</a> wrote:

&gt;
&gt;sfb wrote:
&gt;&gt; A more reasonable interpretation would be the difficulty of assessing an NL
&gt;&gt; pitcher because they believe the NL teams are as strong at the plate as the
&gt;&gt; Al teams.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:jwragusa&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">jwragusa&#64;aol.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; news:<a href="mailto:1153240940.432416.85890&#64;75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153240940.432416.85890&#64;75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Due to the relative strengths of the leagues, it seems being a &quot;pretty
&gt;&gt; &gt; good&quot; pitcher in the NL might only translate to &quot;getting rocked&quot; in the
&gt;&gt; &gt; AL:
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=2521701&amp;lpos=spotlight&amp;lid=tab4pos1" target="_blank"> http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=2521701&amp;l pos=spotlight&amp;lid=tab4pos1</a>
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt;Whether any of it is true, that's becoming the perception among
&gt;management. Best case: Bronson Arroyo. And Denny Neagle is the
&gt;opposite. A guy that needs that weak 8th and 9th hitter as a rally
&gt;killer. No rally killer in the AL. It's harder to pitch against 9
&gt;real hitters. That's what makes Clemens 20 strikeouts (twice yet) more
&gt;impressive than Wood's 20.
&gt;
&gt;How many of Wood's strikeouts that game were of the pitcher? Ray,
&gt;that's the kind of thing you know about.
&gt;
&gt;Joe

Six of Nolan Ryan's seven no-hitters were against DHing teams.

I wish I had the time to research how many no-hitters have been
pitched in each league in the past 33 seasons.

Tom

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#9: Re: AL GM's leery about obtaining NL pitchers

Posted on 2006-07-20 05:40:25 by Don McC

&quot;Tom MacIntyre&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:tom__macintyre&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">tom__macintyre&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; I wish I had the time to research how many no-hitters
&gt; have been pitched in each league in the past 33 seasons.

They are listed on Baseball Almanac:
<a href="http://baseball-almanac.com/pitching/pinohit1.shtml" target="_blank">http://baseball-almanac.com/pitching/pinohit1.shtml</a>
39 in the A.L.
<a href="http://baseball-almanac.com/pitching/pinohit2.shtml" target="_blank">http://baseball-almanac.com/pitching/pinohit2.shtml</a>
33 in the N.L.

You might want to adjust for the number of teams per league
each season. I believe the inter-league no-hitters have been
by the home team.

--
Don

Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are much more pliable.
~ Mark Twain

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#10: Re: AL GM's leery about obtaining NL pitchers

Posted on 2006-07-20 14:08:48 by Roger Manyard

<a href="mailto:jwragusa&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">jwragusa&#64;aol.com</a> trolled:
&gt; sfb wrote:

Please do not respond to sfb until he learns how to post correctly.

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#11: Re: AL GM's leery about obtaining NL pitchers

Posted on 2006-07-20 17:10:18 by artyw2

<a href="mailto:jwragusa&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">jwragusa&#64;aol.com</a> wrote:
&gt; Due to the relative strengths of the leagues, it seems being a &quot;pretty
&gt; good&quot; pitcher in the NL might only translate to &quot;getting rocked&quot; in the
&gt; AL:
&gt;
&gt; <a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=2521701&amp;lpos=spotlight&amp;lid=tab4pos1" target="_blank"> http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=2521701&amp;l pos=spotlight&amp;lid=tab4pos1</a>

Are they leery about the batters too? Or is only the NL pitchers that
are overrated?
hmmmm
(Abreu? Soriano?)

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#12: Re: AL GM's leery about obtaining NL pitchers

Posted on 2006-07-20 22:08:19 by Tom MacIntyre

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 23:40:25 -0400, &quot;Don McC&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:DonMcC&#64;adelphia.net" target="_blank">DonMcC&#64;adelphia.net</a>&gt;
wrote:

&gt;&quot;Tom MacIntyre&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:tom__macintyre&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">tom__macintyre&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I wish I had the time to research how many no-hitters
&gt;&gt; have been pitched in each league in the past 33 seasons.
&gt;
&gt;They are listed on Baseball Almanac:
&gt;<a href="http://baseball-almanac.com/pitching/pinohit1.shtml" target="_blank">http://baseball-almanac.com/pitching/pinohit1.shtml</a>
&gt;39 in the A.L.
&gt;<a href="http://baseball-almanac.com/pitching/pinohit2.shtml" target="_blank">http://baseball-almanac.com/pitching/pinohit2.shtml</a>
&gt;33 in the N.L.
&gt;
&gt;You might want to adjust for the number of teams per league
&gt;each season. I believe the inter-league no-hitters have been
&gt;by the home team.

Thanks Don. :-)

Tom

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#13: Re: AL GM's leery about obtaining NL pitchers

Posted on 2006-07-21 00:16:43 by Shoeless Joe

On 18 Jul 2006 14:14:03 -0700, &lt;<a href="mailto:rdiperna&#64;nyc.rr.com" target="_blank">rdiperna&#64;nyc.rr.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; Even if we examine those four pitchers, it's hard to draw the
&gt; conclusion that the AL is so much better:

Yeah, guess I settle for All-Star games and World Series.

&gt; The only interesting thing I can see that is happening between the two
&gt; leagues is that the NL is scoring as many runs as the AL now for the
&gt; first time in this era of offense.

10% more runs scored this year than matching period last year.

--
Detroit FTW

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from <a href="http://www.teranews.com" target="_blank">http://www.teranews.com</a>

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#14: Re: AL GM's leery about obtaining NL pitchers

Posted on 2006-07-21 20:25:42 by jwragusa

<a href="mailto:artyw2&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">artyw2&#64;yahoo.com</a> wrote:
&gt; <a href="mailto:jwragusa&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">jwragusa&#64;aol.com</a> wrote:
&gt; &gt; Due to the relative strengths of the leagues, it seems being a &quot;pretty
&gt; &gt; good&quot; pitcher in the NL might only translate to &quot;getting rocked&quot; in the
&gt; &gt; AL:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; <a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=2521701&amp;lpos=spotlight&amp;lid=tab4pos1" target="_blank"> http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=2521701&amp;l pos=spotlight&amp;lid=tab4pos1</a>
&gt;
&gt; Are they leery about the batters too? Or is only the NL pitchers that
&gt; are overrated?
&gt; hmmmm
&gt; (Abreu? Soriano?)

There are clearly individuals in the NL that are as good as any in the
AL. It just appears that a large number of good NL players came over
to AL teams trying to stock up in recent years. ARod said that he
thought the AL could have fielded several more all star teams that
could have competed with the NL all star team. I guess the implication
was that there are more good position players in the AL.

The interleague numbers were so one sided that there has to be
something to it.
I would take Jason Schmitt and Dantrell Willis without reservation.
There are obviously other great pitchers in the NL. But their ERA's
would probably go up in the AL, due to the extra hitters being faced
every day and no &quot;rally killers&quot; (8th and 9th place hitters in the NL)
to prevent so many big innings.

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