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#1: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-11 11:55:38 by Charles Beauchamp

FERRANTE wrote:
> Someone has posted last night's UFC PPV match between Shamrock and
> Ortiz:
>
&gt; <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GojZtWxw2-4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GojZtWxw2-4</a>
&gt;
&gt; Mark

And this is the sort of thing which is why I won't ever buy a UFC PPV.
--
v/r Dread Pirate Rackham

&quot;You know one things that's wrong with this country? Everybody gets a
chance to have their fair say.&quot; - President Clinton 28 May 1993

&quot;There is nothing patriotic about hating your country, or pretending
that you can love your country but despise your government.&quot; -
President Clinton 5 May 1995

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#2: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-11 15:05:25 by deadandrestless

Charles Beauchamp wrote:
&gt; FERRANTE wrote:
&gt; &gt; Someone has posted last night's UFC PPV match between Shamrock and
&gt; &gt; Ortiz:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GojZtWxw2-4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GojZtWxw2-4</a>
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Mark
&gt;
&gt; And this is the sort of thing which is why I won't ever buy a UFC PPV.
&gt; --

And I assume you wouldn't buy a boxing PPV for the same reason, right?

Report this message

#3: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-11 17:28:07 by ACE HOLE

&quot;Charles Beauchamp&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:C.E.Beauchamp&#64;NOSPAMcomcast.net" target="_blank">C.E.Beauchamp&#64;NOSPAMcomcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:nIednbqKyIE96C7ZnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d&#64;comcast.com..." target="_blank">nIednbqKyIE96C7ZnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d&#64;comcast.com...</a>
&gt; FERRANTE wrote:
&gt; &gt; Someone has posted last night's UFC PPV match between Shamrock and
&gt; &gt; Ortiz:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GojZtWxw2-4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GojZtWxw2-4</a>
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Mark
&gt;
&gt; And this is the sort of thing which is why I won't ever buy a UFC PPV.
&gt;

because u can just watch them on youtube instead?

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#4: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-12 14:11:18 by Charles Beauchamp

<a href="mailto:deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; Charles Beauchamp wrote:
&gt;&gt; FERRANTE wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt; Someone has posted last night's UFC PPV match between Shamrock and
&gt;&gt;&gt; Ortiz:
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GojZtWxw2-4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GojZtWxw2-4</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; Mark
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; And this is the sort of thing which is why I won't ever buy a UFC
&gt;&gt; PPV. --
&gt;
&gt; And I assume you wouldn't buy a boxing PPV for the same reason, right?

There are boxing promoters that I avoid. UFC though seems more rampant with
these quick stoppages all hype no fight matches. Just not very interesting.
I don't think the fights in UFC are legitimate much of the time.

--
v/r Dread Pirate Rackham

&quot;You know one things that's wrong with this country? Everybody gets a
chance to have their fair say.&quot; - President Clinton 28 May 1993

&quot;There is nothing patriotic about hating your country, or pretending
that you can love your country but despise your government.&quot; -
President Clinton 5 May 1995

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#5: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-12 16:50:54 by deadandrestless

&gt; There are boxing promoters that I avoid. UFC though seems more rampant with
&gt; these quick stoppages all hype no fight matches.

Quick stoppages happen all the time. Your average UFC card is going to
be a lot more competitive than, say, the Barrera/Fana PPV from last
year. Hell, there were people here complaining that the undercard of
Pacquiao/Larios was terrible, but it was actually significantly better
than cards like Tarver/Hopkins. It would have been a front runner for
PPV of the year had there not been a bunch of scratches just a week
prior.

&gt; I don't think the fights in UFC are legitimate much of the time.

If they aren't, there's a lot of people who are gonna be going to jail.

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#6: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-13 04:41:27 by Charles Beauchamp

<a href="mailto:deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt; There are boxing promoters that I avoid. UFC though seems more
&gt;&gt; rampant with these quick stoppages all hype no fight matches.
&gt;
&gt; Quick stoppages happen all the time. Your average UFC card is going to
&gt; be a lot more competitive than, say, the Barrera/Fana PPV from last
&gt; year.

I am very stingy with my PPV dollars. I don't by pro rassling cards either.

Hell, there were people here complaining that the undercard of
&gt; Pacquiao/Larios was terrible, but it was actually significantly better
&gt; than cards like Tarver/Hopkins. It would have been a front runner for
&gt; PPV of the year had there not been a bunch of scratches just a week
&gt; prior.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; I don't think the fights in UFC are legitimate much of the time.
&gt;
&gt; If they aren't, there's a lot of people who are gonna be going to
&gt; jail.

I won't miss them.

--
v/r Dread Pirate Rackham

&quot;You know one things that's wrong with this country? Everybody gets a
chance to have their fair say.&quot; - President Clinton 28 May 1993

&quot;There is nothing patriotic about hating your country, or pretending
that you can love your country but despise your government.&quot; -
President Clinton 5 May 1995

Report this message

#7: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-13 13:52:51 by deadandrestless

&gt; I am very stingy with my PPV dollars. I don't by pro rassling cards either.

MMA has what to do with pro wrestling again, persay?

&gt; I won't miss them.

Well, seeing as the UFC is 100% shoot all the time, yeah, that's not
gonna happen. Shit, if Manny Stewart and Ty Fields can still get
approved to box after the Sherman Williams fight they were involved in,
the UFC (which hasn't shown any signs of such a work since
Taktarov/Macias over a decade ago) isn't going to have an ounce of
trouble.

Report this message

#8: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-13 14:08:25 by isaiahcamacho

<a href="mailto:deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; &gt; I am very stingy with my PPV dollars. I don't by pro rassling cards either.
&gt;
&gt; MMA has what to do with pro wrestling again, persay?


It's just another thing the guy doesn't like.


&gt; &gt; I won't miss them.
&gt;
&gt; Well, seeing as the UFC is 100% shoot all the time, yeah, that's not
&gt; gonna happen. Shit, if Manny Stewart and Ty Fields can still get
&gt; approved to box after the Sherman Williams fight they were involved in,
&gt; the UFC (which hasn't shown any signs of such a work since
&gt; Taktarov/Macias over a decade ago) isn't going to have an ounce of
&gt; trouble.


These conspiracy nuts aren't worth the time in general, but I suspect
Pride has had some works over the years. Of course everything involving
Takada and many of Ogawa's fights, but there are more I regard as
suspicious: Shamrock vs. Frye, Gracie vs. Yoshida (both fights) and a
couple of others. What do you think?



-Isaiah

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#9: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-13 15:12:51 by deadandrestless

&gt; It's just another thing the guy doesn't like.

Heh. True.

&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; I won't miss them.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Well, seeing as the UFC is 100% shoot all the time, yeah, that's not
&gt; &gt; gonna happen. Shit, if Manny Stewart and Ty Fields can still get
&gt; &gt; approved to box after the Sherman Williams fight they were involved in,
&gt; &gt; the UFC (which hasn't shown any signs of such a work since
&gt; &gt; Taktarov/Macias over a decade ago) isn't going to have an ounce of
&gt; &gt; trouble.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; These conspiracy nuts aren't worth the time in general, but I suspect
&gt; Pride has had some works over the years. Of course everything involving
&gt; Takada and many of Ogawa's fights, but there are more I regard as
&gt; suspicious: Shamrock vs. Frye, Gracie vs. Yoshida (both fights) and a
&gt; couple of others. What do you think?
&gt;

Takada's been in some shoots. Basically, the fights he lost. Kerr, both
Rickson bouts, and the Tamura fight were all straight up shoots.
Ogawa/Goodridge is always said to be a work, but its a GREAT work if it
is. Same with the fight with Shamrock/Frye wasn't a shoot. Frye didn't
tap because he was chock full of opiates and never felt it (I think he
admitted as much). Gracie/Yoshida I and II are both shoots.
Wanderlei/Yoshida I and II are both considered more touch and go, but
people seem to be more accepting of them now that Yoshida's sort of
proven himself in MMA. Shamrock/Sakuraba is sorta suspicious about the
stoppage, though that's just as much about protecting Saku as anything.
Fujita/Shamrock was one that always gets brought up, but the assumption
is that if Ken were to throw a fight in that fashion, PRIDE would have
NEVER brought him back.

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#10: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-13 17:51:01 by HardCell

&lt;<a href="mailto:isaiahcamacho&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">isaiahcamacho&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1152792505.796141.118800&#64;i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1152792505.796141.118800&#64;i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; <a href="mailto:deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt; &gt; I am very stingy with my PPV dollars. I don't by pro rassling cards
&gt;&gt; &gt; either.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; MMA has what to do with pro wrestling again, persay?

They seem to draw the same kind of fans, for one thing.

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#11: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-13 19:13:53 by unknown

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

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#12: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-13 19:36:00 by deadandrestless

&gt; &gt;&gt; MMA has what to do with pro wrestling again, persay?
&gt;
&gt; They seem to draw the same kind of fans, for one thing.

Virtually all studies done on the sport seem to show that MMA draws
more from boxing fans than it does pro wrestling. In fact, when the UFC
and WWE ran large shows against one another last year, both did solid
numbers (WWE over a 5.0, UFC at a 1.9).

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#13: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-13 21:47:43 by HardCell

&lt;<a href="mailto:deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1152812160.602519.227350&#64;75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1152812160.602519.227350&#64;75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>

&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; MMA has what to do with pro wrestling again, persay?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; They seem to draw the same kind of fans, for one thing.
&gt;
&gt; Virtually all studies done on the sport seem to show that MMA draws
&gt; more from boxing fans than it does pro wrestling. In fact, when the UFC
&gt; and WWE ran large shows against one another last year, both did solid
&gt; numbers (WWE over a 5.0, UFC at a 1.9).

If they are running large shows against each other, it seems that
they at least perceive themselves to be in direct competition.

I guess another thing that feeds into that perception is that
a few of the higher-profile MMA stars, like Ken Shamrock,
or Ken &quot;Shamroid,&quot; as I've heard him called, have been
active in both pro wrestling and MMA.

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#14: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-13 21:58:36 by deadandrestless

&gt; If they are running large shows against each other, it seems that
&gt; they at least perceive themselves to be in direct competition.
&gt;

The WWE percieves it more than Dana White. Dana's been after boxing
hard for years. Pro wrestling is an afterthought. Its different in
Japan, but where MMA and wrestling fit into the social consciousness is
totally different as well. At its peak in 2002, the K1/Pride combined
show (Dynamite/Shockwave) had a crowd of 93,000 people and over one
third of the nation watching on TV. Basically, Superbowl type numbers
stateside. The WWE sees the UFC ultimately as a threat (as do a lot of
the boxing sanctioning bodies, btw), because they look overseas at
Japan and the fact that the MMA business almost totally eradicated the
strongest wrestling market in the world in a mere 5 years.

&gt; I guess another thing that feeds into that perception is that
&gt; a few of the higher-profile MMA stars, like Ken Shamrock,
&gt; or Ken &quot;Shamroid,&quot; as I've heard him called, have been
&gt; active in both pro wrestling and MMA.

The number of crossovers is pretty limited, and its mostly apparent in
Japan, again, due to the differences in pro wrestling there versus
here. Pro wrestling in Japan, notably the UWFI, played itself as being
&quot;real&quot; and had bouts not too dissimilar in appearance to what we see in
MMA or grappling competitions today. Of course, when the wrestlers
typically made the move over, they found themselves getting KOed or
needing to have worked matches to get over (not a big issue, as PRIDE
is and was owned by the Korean Mob), though they ultimately lost. Some
had levels of success in what are verifiable shoots, but they all had
significant levels of actual training both in submission wrestling,
amateur wrestling, and kickboxing. Professional wrestlers in the US can
barely do worked wrist locks, much less a real life Americana.

There's also the odd example of top pro MMA fighter Josh Barnett, who
became a pro wrestler in Japan because the money was really good. He
was kicked out of the UFC and lost his heavyweight title after a
positive steroid test, which he never apologized for.

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#15: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-13 23:31:28 by HardCell

&lt;<a href="mailto:deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1152820716.079507.319670&#64;i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1152820716.079507.319670&#64;i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...</a>

&gt;&gt; If they are running large shows against each other, it seems that
&gt;&gt; they at least perceive themselves to be in direct competition.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt; The WWE percieves it more than Dana White. Dana's been after boxing
&gt; hard for years. Pro wrestling is an afterthought. Its different in
&gt; Japan, but where MMA and wrestling fit into the social consciousness is
&gt; totally different as well. At its peak in 2002, the K1/Pride combined
&gt; show (Dynamite/Shockwave) had a crowd of 93,000 people and over one
&gt; third of the nation watching on TV. Basically, Superbowl type numbers
&gt; stateside. The WWE sees the UFC ultimately as a threat (as do a lot of
&gt; the boxing sanctioning bodies, btw), because they look overseas at
&gt; Japan and the fact that the MMA business almost totally eradicated the
&gt; strongest wrestling market in the world in a mere 5 years.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; I guess another thing that feeds into that perception is that
&gt;&gt; a few of the higher-profile MMA stars, like Ken Shamrock,
&gt;&gt; or Ken &quot;Shamroid,&quot; as I've heard him called, have been
&gt;&gt; active in both pro wrestling and MMA.
&gt;
&gt; The number of crossovers is pretty limited, and its mostly apparent in
&gt; Japan, again, due to the differences in pro wrestling there versus
&gt; here. Pro wrestling in Japan, notably the UWFI, played itself as being
&gt; &quot;real&quot; and had bouts not too dissimilar in appearance to what we see in
&gt; MMA or grappling competitions today. Of course, when the wrestlers
&gt; typically made the move over, they found themselves getting KOed or
&gt; needing to have worked matches to get over (not a big issue, as PRIDE
&gt; is and was owned by the Korean Mob), though they ultimately lost. Some
&gt; had levels of success in what are verifiable shoots, but they all had
&gt; significant levels of actual training both in submission wrestling,
&gt; amateur wrestling, and kickboxing. Professional wrestlers in the US can
&gt; barely do worked wrist locks, much less a real life Americana.
&gt;
&gt; There's also the odd example of top pro MMA fighter Josh Barnett, who
&gt; became a pro wrestler in Japan because the money was really good. He
&gt; was kicked out of the UFC and lost his heavyweight title after a
&gt; positive steroid test, which he never apologized for.

Interesting post. I thought that the promotion for the last Shamrock-Ortiz
card was very pro-wrestling in tone. Boxing on the whole is really shooting
itself in the foot by not getting its act together and insisting on one
recognized
heavyweight champion. The general sports fan still equates the
HW division with boxing, like it or not. When that division is in disarray,
as it has been for awhile now, it becomes easier for things like MMA to get
a
foothold. I'm more of boxing purist and don't really get too excited about
things like MMA, but can see why others might like it.

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#16: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-14 00:54:19 by The Sanity Cruzer

&lt;<a href="mailto:Pro_rata&#64;yourplace.com" target="_blank">Pro_rata&#64;yourplace.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1ovcb29a8j46vhoeaf2e1qdtu713oqav5q&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">1ovcb29a8j46vhoeaf2e1qdtu713oqav5q&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt; &quot;Hard-Cell&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:hard&#64;cell.com" target="_blank">hard&#64;cell.com</a>&gt; said:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&lt;<a href="mailto:isaiahcamacho&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">isaiahcamacho&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt;news:<a href="mailto:1152792505.796141.118800&#64;i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1152792505.796141.118800&#64;i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href="mailto:deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; I am very stingy with my PPV dollars. I don't by pro rassling cards
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; either.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MMA has what to do with pro wrestling again, persay?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;They seem to draw the same kind of fans, for one thing.
&gt;
&gt; They wear those 'gay' lycra shorts, for another thing.

That's why I watch.

Another fool for the twit filter.

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#17: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-14 01:32:07 by Charles Beauchamp

<a href="mailto:deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt; I am very stingy with my PPV dollars. I don't by pro rassling cards
&gt;&gt; either.
&gt;
&gt; MMA has what to do with pro wrestling again, persay?
&gt;

Expensive not worth my money pay per views.

&gt;&gt; I won't miss them.
&gt;
&gt; Well, seeing as the UFC is 100% shoot all the time, yeah, that's not
&gt; gonna happen. Shit, if Manny Stewart and Ty Fields can still get
&gt; approved to box after the Sherman Williams fight they were involved
&gt; in, the UFC (which hasn't shown any signs of such a work since
&gt; Taktarov/Macias over a decade ago) isn't going to have an ounce of
&gt; trouble.

Yea well you keep thinking whatever you want. UFC is to me what soccer is
to me which is mildly interesting...just not something that effects my
calendar at all. And Ken Shamrock can't fight a lick anyhow. The guy is
well past shot. Has he even won a major fight in the past 4 years? How
does this guy headline a PPV against a guy who beat his ass the last time
they fought? If UFC is going to really become interesting they need real
fighters with real skills and not 40 something guys that are on losing
streaks headlining.

--
v/r Dread Pirate Rackham

&quot;You know one things that's wrong with this country? Everybody gets a
chance to have their fair say.&quot; - President Clinton 28 May 1993

&quot;There is nothing patriotic about hating your country, or pretending
that you can love your country but despise your government.&quot; -
President Clinton 5 May 1995

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#18: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-14 04:25:40 by deadandrestless

&gt; Expensive not worth my money pay per views.

Okaaaay....


&gt; Yea well you keep thinking whatever you want.

I certainly can and will continue to do so. No reason to stop now.

&gt; And Ken Shamrock can't fight a lick anyhow. The guy is
&gt; well past shot. Has he even won a major fight in the past 4 years? How
&gt; does this guy headline a PPV against a guy who beat his ass the last time
&gt; they fought?

Same reason Julio Cesar Chavez headlined two PPVs and sold out two
venues last year in the US and Castillo/Corrales couldn't sell out a
building once, much less twice, and lost money on the one PPV together,
unlike Chavez.

Report this message

#19: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-14 04:37:44 by The Sanity Cruzer

&quot;Charles Beauchamp&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:C.E.Beauchamp&#64;NOSPAMcomcast.net" target="_blank">C.E.Beauchamp&#64;NOSPAMcomcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message &gt;
&gt; Yea well you keep thinking whatever you want. UFC is to me what soccer is
&gt; to me which is mildly interesting...just not something that effects my
&gt; calendar at all. And Ken Shamrock can't fight a lick anyhow. The guy is
&gt; well past shot. Has he even won a major fight in the past 4 years? How
&gt; does this guy headline a PPV against a guy who beat his ass the last time
&gt; they fought? If UFC is going to really become interesting they need real
&gt; fighters with real skills and not 40 something guys that are on losing
&gt; streaks headlining.

Take a look at who's making the money headlining PPV's in boxing: Holyfield,
Roy Jones, ODLH, Mosley, Vargas, Tyson, et al. Not one of these fighters is
close to what he used to be (with the possible exception of DLH, who doesn't
fight much and who hasn't won at the top for awhile). Mark my words, the
UFC will be making more money than boxing after a few years.

The question is; Will there be small clubs for MMA, as boxing once had?

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#20: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-14 05:09:37 by deadandrestless

&gt; The question is; Will there be small clubs for MMA, as boxing once had?

MMA has club shows in every state in the US that its legal. Hell,
there's MMA events biweekly in Alaska.

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#21: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-14 08:46:59 by Charles Beauchamp

<a href="mailto:deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt; Expensive not worth my money pay per views.
&gt;
&gt; Okaaaay....
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Yea well you keep thinking whatever you want.
&gt;
&gt; I certainly can and will continue to do so. No reason to stop now.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; And Ken Shamrock can't fight a lick anyhow. The guy is
&gt;&gt; well past shot. Has he even won a major fight in the past 4 years?
&gt;&gt; How does this guy headline a PPV against a guy who beat his ass the
&gt;&gt; last time they fought?
&gt;
&gt; Same reason Julio Cesar Chavez headlined two PPVs and sold out two
&gt; venues last year in the US

and anyone who bought those because of Julio is an idiot as well.

and Castillo/Corrales couldn't sell out a
&gt; building once, much less twice, and lost money on the one PPV
&gt; together, unlike Chavez.

Ahhh so with idiots..it isn't quality but a name?

I just looked it up..Shamrock has now been stopped in the first round in his
last 3 fights and has one win in the past 5 years. WTF?!!!! You pay for
that shit?!!! Well then you get what you deserve.
--
v/r Dread Pirate Rackham

&quot;You know one things that's wrong with this country? Everybody gets a
chance to have their fair say.&quot; - President Clinton 28 May 1993

&quot;There is nothing patriotic about hating your country, or pretending
that you can love your country but despise your government.&quot; -
President Clinton 5 May 1995

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#22: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-14 08:50:08 by Charles Beauchamp

The Sanity Cruzer wrote:
&gt; &quot;Charles Beauchamp&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:C.E.Beauchamp&#64;NOSPAMcomcast.net" target="_blank">C.E.Beauchamp&#64;NOSPAMcomcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in
&gt; message &gt;
&gt;&gt; Yea well you keep thinking whatever you want. UFC is to me what
&gt;&gt; soccer is to me which is mildly interesting...just not something
&gt;&gt; that effects my calendar at all. And Ken Shamrock can't fight a
&gt;&gt; lick anyhow. The guy is well past shot. Has he even won a major
&gt;&gt; fight in the past 4 years? How does this guy headline a PPV against
&gt;&gt; a guy who beat his ass the last time they fought? If UFC is going
&gt;&gt; to really become interesting they need real fighters with real
&gt;&gt; skills and not 40 something guys that are on losing streaks
&gt;&gt; headlining.
&gt;
&gt; Take a look at who's making the money headlining PPV's in boxing:
&gt; Holyfield, Roy Jones, ODLH, Mosley, Vargas, Tyson, et al. Not one of
&gt; these fighters is close to what he used to be (with the possible
&gt; exception of DLH, who doesn't fight much and who hasn't won at the
&gt; top for awhile). Mark my words, the UFC will be making more money
&gt; than boxing after a few years.

Highly unlikely. UFC resides on the fringe somewhere around roller derby
and pro rasslin and more to the point..I don't care how many PPV buys it
gets..my point is I won't buy that garbage. And I don't buy ppv fights
unless they are legit matches of real compelling interest.

I can't get past that someone thought it made sense to shell out major
dollars to see Tito Ortiz beat up Ken Shamrock...who has one win in the past
5 years...again. I mean...Ken Shamrock basically rages up in a few
interviews..initiates some confrontations and this is what UFC fans jump for
and shell out their money to see? WOW!

--
v/r Dread Pirate Rackham

&quot;You know one things that's wrong with this country? Everybody gets a
chance to have their fair say.&quot; - President Clinton 28 May 1993

&quot;There is nothing patriotic about hating your country, or pretending
that you can love your country but despise your government.&quot; -
President Clinton 5 May 1995

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#23: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-14 11:23:26 by isaiahcamacho

<a href="mailto:deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt; &gt; These conspiracy nuts aren't worth the time in general, but I suspect
&gt; &gt; Pride has had some works over the years. Of course everything involving
&gt; &gt; Takada and many of Ogawa's fights, but there are more I regard as
&gt; &gt; suspicious: Shamrock vs. Frye, Gracie vs. Yoshida (both fights) and a
&gt; &gt; couple of others. What do you think?
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt; Takada's been in some shoots. Basically, the fights he lost. Kerr, both
&gt; Rickson bouts, and the Tamura fight were all straight up shoots.


I'm not convinced about all those. I don't think Takada's too proud to
&quot;do the honors,&quot; as they say in pro wrestling.


&gt; Ogawa/Goodridge is always said to be a work, but its a GREAT work if it
&gt; is.


Not any better than some of Sayama's stuff. I have no doubt that it was
a work.


&gt; Same with the fight with Shamrock/Frye wasn't a shoot. Frye didn't
&gt; tap because he was chock full of opiates and never felt it (I think he
&gt; admitted as much).


Both guys have histories of doing works, and both were pretty decent at
it. Then there was the fishy knockdown (or fishily fast recovery from
what looked like a KO) and the ankle-lock that both fighters bravely
resisted. The split decision. I don't know.


&gt; Gracie/Yoshida I and II are both shoots.


I'm not so sure. The first one technically wasn't even MMA, but I look
at damaging strikes as being one of the surest signs that a fight is
real. Also, draws are fishy in Pride.


&gt; Wanderlei/Yoshida I and II are both considered more touch and go, but
&gt; people seem to be more accepting of them now that Yoshida's sort of
&gt; proven himself in MMA.


I accept both of them, no question.


&gt; Shamrock/Sakuraba is sorta suspicious about the
&gt; stoppage, though that's just as much about protecting Saku as anything.


Agreed.


&gt; Fujita/Shamrock was one that always gets brought up, but the assumption
&gt; is that if Ken were to throw a fight in that fashion, PRIDE would have
&gt; NEVER brought him back.


I don't question that one either.


-Isaiah

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#24: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-14 11:38:43 by unknown

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

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#25: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-14 13:54:24 by deadandrestless

&gt; Ahhh so with idiots..it isn't quality but a name?

Does the name &quot;Mike Tyson&quot; ring any bells? Sanity already covered this
for me.

&gt; I just looked it up..Shamrock has now been stopped in the first round in his
&gt; last 3 fights and has one win in the past 5 years. WTF?!!!! You pay for
&gt; that shit?!!! Well then you get what you deserve.

Well, here's the thing with the UFC:

A) Its not the main event.

B) If the main event does go short, they show dark matches from the
undercard to make up the time.

I haven't ordered a UFC in years that I didn't feel like I got my
money's worth on, or that the UFC gave a serious effort to entertain me
with. I can't say that about most of HBO's PPVs.

Report this message

#26: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-14 13:57:32 by deadandrestless

&gt; Highly unlikely. UFC resides on the fringe somewhere around roller derby
&gt; and pro rasslin and more to the point..I don't care how many PPV buys it
&gt; gets

Reality check: The Washington Post has already started its MMA
coverage. So has Reuters and Fox Sports Net. Of course its not in every
newspaper yet; the sport has existed for all of 13 years. Of course,
relying on print rather than the internet is part of the reason why
outside of De La Hoya, not one boxing event this year tops the biggest
3 UFC PPVs.

&gt; I can't get past that someone thought it made sense to shell out major
&gt; dollars to see Tito Ortiz beat up Ken Shamrock...who has one win in the past
&gt; 5 years...again. I mean...Ken Shamrock basically rages up in a few
&gt; interviews..initiates some confrontations and this is what UFC fans jump for
&gt; and shell out their money to see? WOW!

I'm glad to see Shammy get beat down. I got to see 5 other fights too,
and had any of the bouts run short, I would have seen more. What is
there to complain about?

Report this message

#27: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-14 14:09:16 by Ted

&lt;<a href="mailto:deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1152878064.865435.16550&#64;b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1152878064.865435.16550&#64;b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; &gt; Ahhh so with idiots..it isn't quality but a name?
&gt;
&gt; Does the name &quot;Mike Tyson&quot; ring any bells? Sanity already covered this
&gt; for me.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; I just looked it up..Shamrock has now been stopped in the first round in
his
&gt; &gt; last 3 fights and has one win in the past 5 years. WTF?!!!! You pay
for
&gt; &gt; that shit?!!! Well then you get what you deserve.
&gt;
&gt; Well, here's the thing with the UFC:
&gt;
&gt; A) Its not the main event.


It probably should have been the main event, it was more entertaining than
the good awful 30 minute stand up light sparring match we saw for the main
event, between two guys who would get owned in a boxing ring by any half
decent club fighter. That must be one of the most dire 30 minutes of any
sport I've ever watched.

Report this message

#28: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-14 14:24:28 by deadandrestless

&gt; It probably should have been the main event, it was more entertaining than
&gt; the good awful 30 minute stand up light sparring match we saw for the main
&gt; event, between two guys who would get owned in a boxing ring by any half
&gt; decent club fighter. That must be one of the most dire 30 minutes of any
&gt; sport I've ever watched.

I won't disagree. That was a lousy main event, and the fact that it
ended up as such is shocking considering the previous two bouts. I
can't even imagine what the line was for a decision win for either. In
any case, I can't blame Dana. It makes for two bad main events in the
last 12 months, so that's pretty forgivable. Especially since Hermes
Franca still made air.

Report this message

#29: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-14 14:34:27 by 5016

The Sanity Cruzer wrote:
&gt; &quot;Charles Beauchamp&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:C.E.Beauchamp&#64;NOSPAMcomcast.net" target="_blank">C.E.Beauchamp&#64;NOSPAMcomcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message &gt;
&gt; &gt; Yea well you keep thinking whatever you want. UFC is to me what soccer is
&gt; &gt; to me which is mildly interesting...just not something that effects my
&gt; &gt; calendar at all. And Ken Shamrock can't fight a lick anyhow. The guy is
&gt; &gt; well past shot. Has he even won a major fight in the past 4 years? How
&gt; &gt; does this guy headline a PPV against a guy who beat his ass the last time
&gt; &gt; they fought? If UFC is going to really become interesting they need real
&gt; &gt; fighters with real skills and not 40 something guys that are on losing
&gt; &gt; streaks headlining.
&gt;
&gt; Take a look at who's making the money headlining PPV's in boxing: Holyfield,
&gt; Roy Jones, ODLH, Mosley, Vargas, Tyson, et al. Not one of these fighters is
&gt; close to what he used to be (with the possible exception of DLH, who doesn't
&gt; fight much and who hasn't won at the top for awhile).

I think that this has nothing to do with a decline; it is simply that
fighters build up a name and then trade on it. The biggest fights have
always included fighters on the downside. Ali's fights in the 70s were
bigger than his in the 60s, Robinson had bigger fights and was more
popular at middleweight than at welterweight, Duran at welter rather
than lightweight etc. It is a very rare fighter who comes out of the
gate so fast that he can get on PPV-level at his peak - de la Hoya and
Leonard are the only ones I can think of.

It is also true that fighters climb up most people P4P ratings while
they are declining. Take, for instance, Tzsyu, who had been knocking
around the bottom half of most people's top 10 on and off for nearly 10
years - as the names above him dropped off (Jones, ODLH, Trinidad etc)
he climbed up the rankings finally being a consensus top 3 at 35 just
before he lost to Hatton, despite the fact that in the period he was at
his best (say age 29) he was rated as a marginal top-10 candidate.

&gt; Mark my words, the
&gt; UFC will be making more money than boxing after a few years.

I don't think that the UFC will be - I think that MMA might, though.
The UFC is a privately held organization, and there is too much
conflict of interest to regard it as a real sport. Basically, the UFC
matches up competitors in order to make the most money for itself. It
makes the boxing organizations, who at least try to give the semblence
of giving the best fighter a chance, look like paragons of Athenian
virtue. That isn't the way a real sport operates - it's the way the pro
wrestling operates.

&gt;
&gt; The question is; Will there be small clubs for MMA, as boxing once had?

Report this message

#30: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-14 14:47:32 by deadandrestless

&gt; I think that this has nothing to do with a decline; it is simply that
&gt; fighters build up a name and then trade on it. The biggest fights have
&gt; always included fighters on the downside. Ali's fights in the 70s were
&gt; bigger than his in the 60s, Robinson had bigger fights and was more
&gt; popular at middleweight than at welterweight, Duran at welter rather
&gt; than lightweight etc. It is a very rare fighter who comes out of the
&gt; gate so fast that he can get on PPV-level at his peak - de la Hoya and
&gt; Leonard are the only ones I can think of.

There's several that have existed that I can think of: Mike Tyson?
Evander Holyfield? Roy Jones wasn't a PPV draw until he decided to
fight top competition, which should be a shock to none. He had a boat
load of buys for the Ruiz fight as well as all three Tarver bouts. The
fact is, unless fighters fight each other, they won't have a name. And
no one is fighting each other. Barrera refuses to fight Pacquiao again.
No one at welter will fight each other; Mayweather, Hatton, and Cotto
are all avoiding each other like the plague, to say nothing of
Margarito's status. Who's really willing to unify the 4 belts at light
heavyweight other than Adamek? Does anyone really believe the winner of
Kessler/Beyer will fight Calzaghe? When the hell are ANY of the
heavyweights gonna unify or even give it a shot? That's the biggest
problem in the sport.

&gt; I don't think that the UFC will be - I think that MMA might, though.
&gt; The UFC is a privately held organization, and there is too much
&gt; conflict of interest to regard it as a real sport. Basically, the UFC
&gt; matches up competitors in order to make the most money for itself. It
&gt; makes the boxing organizations, who at least try to give the semblence
&gt; of giving the best fighter a chance, look like paragons of Athenian
&gt; virtue. That isn't the way a real sport operates - it's the way the pro
&gt; wrestling operates.

I think the UFC will ultimately have to become less of a promotional
body and more of a sanctioning body in the fashion that a WBC is. The
idea, however, that the UFC doesn't give the &quot;best fighter&quot; a chance is
ridiculous though. The only guy that I can think who's blacklisted from
them for illegitimate reasons is Matt Lindland, though that's more
because of personal issues between him and the Fertittas/Dana White
than it is the percieved danger he poses to Rich Franklin.

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#31: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-14 15:44:31 by 5016

<a href="mailto:deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; &gt; I think that this has nothing to do with a decline; it is simply that
&gt; &gt; fighters build up a name and then trade on it. The biggest fights have
&gt; &gt; always included fighters on the downside. Ali's fights in the 70s were
&gt; &gt; bigger than his in the 60s, Robinson had bigger fights and was more
&gt; &gt; popular at middleweight than at welterweight, Duran at welter rather
&gt; &gt; than lightweight etc. It is a very rare fighter who comes out of the
&gt; &gt; gate so fast that he can get on PPV-level at his peak - de la Hoya and
&gt; &gt; Leonard are the only ones I can think of.
&gt;
&gt; There's several that have existed that I can think of: Mike Tyson?
&gt; Evander Holyfield?

I'll give you Tyson, but Holyfield wasn't there until he won multiple
titles, and was never as big a draw as the other three.

&gt; Roy Jones wasn't a PPV draw until he decided to
&gt; fight top competition, which should be a shock to none. He had a boat
&gt; load of buys for the Ruiz fight as well as all three Tarver bouts. The
&gt; fact is, unless fighters fight each other, they won't have a name. And
&gt; no one is fighting each other. Barrera refuses to fight Pacquiao again.
&gt; No one at welter will fight each other; Mayweather, Hatton, and Cotto
&gt; are all avoiding each other like the plague, to say nothing of
&gt; Margarito's status. Who's really willing to unify the 4 belts at light
&gt; heavyweight other than Adamek? Does anyone really believe the winner of
&gt; Kessler/Beyer will fight Calzaghe? When the hell are ANY of the
&gt; heavyweights gonna unify or even give it a shot? That's the biggest
&gt; problem in the sport.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; I don't think that the UFC will be - I think that MMA might, though.
&gt; &gt; The UFC is a privately held organization, and there is too much
&gt; &gt; conflict of interest to regard it as a real sport. Basically, the UFC
&gt; &gt; matches up competitors in order to make the most money for itself. It
&gt; &gt; makes the boxing organizations, who at least try to give the semblence
&gt; &gt; of giving the best fighter a chance, look like paragons of Athenian
&gt; &gt; virtue. That isn't the way a real sport operates - it's the way the pro
&gt; &gt; wrestling operates.
&gt;
&gt; I think the UFC will ultimately have to become less of a promotional
&gt; body and more of a sanctioning body in the fashion that a WBC is. The
&gt; idea, however, that the UFC doesn't give the &quot;best fighter&quot; a chance is
&gt; ridiculous though. The only guy that I can think who's blacklisted from
&gt; them for illegitimate reasons is Matt Lindland, though that's more
&gt; because of personal issues between him and the Fertittas/Dana White
&gt; than it is the percieved danger he poses to Rich Franklin.

Well, there's Fedor and Nogeira and Barnett and CroCop. They're not
being given a chance (not that they want one with the UFC) and they're
the best fighters. I don't know what you consider a &quot;legitimate&quot; reason
and I don't agree with this qualifier. MMA is a business rather than a
sport, even more so than boxing. If it were a sport, then the
sanctioning bodies would be trying to make these fights rather than get
its competitors from a reality show. Football and soccer and baseball
and rugby don't obtain their competitors in this way.

Report this message

#32: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-14 16:14:17 by deadandrestless

&gt; I'll give you Tyson, but Holyfield wasn't there until he won multiple
&gt; titles, and was never as big a draw as the other three.

Holyfield was a part of some absolutely mammoth PPVs. Was he as big as
Ali, Tyson, or Sugar Ray Leonard? Of course not. How many guys have
that drawing ability? Holyfield was, in his prime, a bigger draw than
anyone currently boxing, except perhaps Oscar De La Hoya (who is the
biggest nonheavyweight draw in history). The Bowe trilogy, the Moorer
fight, the Foreman fight, the Buster Douglas fight, both bouts with
Lennox Lewis (particularly the first one) and of course, the two Tyson
bouts, the second of which was the most purchased PPV in history, all
did giant numbers, had bigger mainstream exposure, and made more money
than any fight card that's thrown out there in the last two years that
didn't include Oscar De La Hoya in the main event.

&gt; Well, there's Fedor and Nogeira and Barnett and CroCop. They're not
&gt; being given a chance (not that they want one with the UFC) and they're
&gt; the best fighters.

With Silva crossing over and PRIDE's interest in the US market (which
they feel will ultimately be worth more to them than Japan), its a
matter of time before the Fedors and Noguiera's end up in the UFC.
Barnett will probably *never* appear in a MMA ring again because of
what happened when he was last with UFC. He's not competed in the US
since and would have to go through the recertification process almost
from scratch.

&gt; I don't know what you consider a &quot;legitimate&quot; reason
&gt; and I don't agree with this qualifier. MMA is a business rather than a
&gt; sport, even more so than boxing. If it were a sport, then the
&gt; sanctioning bodies would be trying to make these fights rather than get
&gt; its competitors from a reality show. Football and soccer and baseball
&gt; and rugby don't obtain their competitors in this way.

Boxing is trying to create competitors from reality shows. Didn't you
hear? Sergio Mora/Jermain Taylor is basically a lock for this fall.
It'll do better on PPV than Hopkins/Taylor I or II did, watch.

As for MMA being more of a business, well, things are changing rapidly,
as the fact of Wanderlei Silva appearing in the octagon (as well as the
announcement in Japan that Fujita and possibly Phill Baroni will join
him) illustrates. Bigger fights will occur as the money increases and
TV exposure continues to increase. HBO is signing the UFC, and Showtime
is signing the WFA, and that's not stuff I'm making up. The argument
that its still a fringe sport whereas boxing isn't ends the second you
turn on Sportscenter or your local news' sports report.

The way things run now will change though...just wait until DKP or Bob
Arum decide to get serious about MMA. They will. There's too much money
to ignore, and given that the two biggest promoters consist of a guy
who's killed two people and another one who got his start promoting
Evel Knievel's Snake River jump, how can you not expect them to go
where the money is at some point?

Report this message

#33: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-14 16:14:17 by deadandrestless

&gt; I'll give you Tyson, but Holyfield wasn't there until he won multiple
&gt; titles, and was never as big a draw as the other three.

Holyfield was a part of some absolutely mammoth PPVs. Was he as big as
Ali, Tyson, or Sugar Ray Leonard? Of course not. How many guys have
that drawing ability? Holyfield was, in his prime, a bigger draw than
anyone currently boxing, except perhaps Oscar De La Hoya (who is the
biggest nonheavyweight draw in history). The Bowe trilogy, the Moorer
fight, the Foreman fight, the Buster Douglas fight, both bouts with
Lennox Lewis (particularly the first one) and of course, the two Tyson
bouts, the second of which was the most purchased PPV in history, all
did giant numbers, had bigger mainstream exposure, and made more money
than any fight card that's thrown out there in the last two years that
didn't include Oscar De La Hoya in the main event.

&gt; Well, there's Fedor and Nogeira and Barnett and CroCop. They're not
&gt; being given a chance (not that they want one with the UFC) and they're
&gt; the best fighters.

With Silva crossing over and PRIDE's interest in the US market (which
they feel will ultimately be worth more to them than Japan), its a
matter of time before the Fedors and Noguiera's end up in the UFC.
Barnett will probably *never* appear in a MMA ring again because of
what happened when he was last with UFC. He's not competed in the US
since and would have to go through the recertification process almost
from scratch.

&gt; I don't know what you consider a &quot;legitimate&quot; reason
&gt; and I don't agree with this qualifier. MMA is a business rather than a
&gt; sport, even more so than boxing. If it were a sport, then the
&gt; sanctioning bodies would be trying to make these fights rather than get
&gt; its competitors from a reality show. Football and soccer and baseball
&gt; and rugby don't obtain their competitors in this way.

Boxing is trying to create competitors from reality shows. Didn't you
hear? Sergio Mora/Jermain Taylor is basically a lock for this fall.
It'll do better on PPV than Hopkins/Taylor I or II did, watch.

As for MMA being more of a business, well, things are changing rapidly,
as the fact of Wanderlei Silva appearing in the octagon (as well as the
announcement in Japan that Fujita and possibly Phill Baroni will join
him) illustrates. Bigger fights will occur as the money increases and
TV exposure continues to increase. HBO is signing the UFC, and Showtime
is signing the WFA, and that's not stuff I'm making up. The argument
that its still a fringe sport whereas boxing isn't ends the second you
turn on Sportscenter or your local news' sports report.

The way things run now will change though...just wait until DKP or Bob
Arum decide to get serious about MMA. They will. There's too much money
to ignore, and given that the two biggest promoters consist of a guy
who's killed two people and another one who got his start promoting
Evel Knievel's Snake River jump, how can you not expect them to go
where the money is at some point?

Report this message

#34: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-14 16:55:43 by 5016

<a href="mailto:deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; &gt; I'll give you Tyson, but Holyfield wasn't there until he won multiple
&gt; &gt; titles, and was never as big a draw as the other three.
&gt;
&gt; Holyfield was a part of some absolutely mammoth PPVs. Was he as big as
&gt; Ali, Tyson, or Sugar Ray Leonard? Of course not. How many guys have
&gt; that drawing ability? Holyfield was, in his prime, a bigger draw than
&gt; anyone currently boxing, except perhaps Oscar De La Hoya (who is the
&gt; biggest nonheavyweight draw in history). The Bowe trilogy, the Moorer
&gt; fight, the Foreman fight, the Buster Douglas fight, both bouts with
&gt; Lennox Lewis (particularly the first one) and of course, the two Tyson
&gt; bouts, the second of which was the most purchased PPV in history, all
&gt; did giant numbers, had bigger mainstream exposure, and made more money
&gt; than any fight card that's thrown out there in the last two years that
&gt; didn't include Oscar De La Hoya in the main event.

I think that Holyfield's history backs up what I'm saying - he had his
biggest PPVs when he was past his best (Tyson, Lewis), after making his
name in lower-profile (though still big) fights.

&gt;
&gt; &gt; Well, there's Fedor and Nogeira and Barnett and CroCop. They're not
&gt; &gt; being given a chance (not that they want one with the UFC) and they're
&gt; &gt; the best fighters.
&gt;
&gt; With Silva crossing over and PRIDE's interest in the US market (which
&gt; they feel will ultimately be worth more to them than Japan), its a
&gt; matter of time before the Fedors and Noguiera's end up in the UFC.

Maybe they'll be in MMA in the states. Whether they're in the UFC or
not is another matter.

&gt; Barnett will probably *never* appear in a MMA ring again because of
&gt; what happened when he was last with UFC. He's not competed in the US
&gt; since and would have to go through the recertification process almost
&gt; from scratch.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; I don't know what you consider a &quot;legitimate&quot; reason
&gt; &gt; and I don't agree with this qualifier. MMA is a business rather than a
&gt; &gt; sport, even more so than boxing. If it were a sport, then the
&gt; &gt; sanctioning bodies would be trying to make these fights rather than get
&gt; &gt; its competitors from a reality show. Football and soccer and baseball
&gt; &gt; and rugby don't obtain their competitors in this way.
&gt;
&gt; Boxing is trying to create competitors from reality shows. Didn't you
&gt; hear? Sergio Mora/Jermain Taylor is basically a lock for this fall.
&gt; It'll do better on PPV than Hopkins/Taylor I or II did, watch.

I'll take that bet. Will you give me evens on $100?

&gt;
&gt; As for MMA being more of a business, well, things are changing rapidly,
&gt; as the fact of Wanderlei Silva appearing in the octagon (as well as the
&gt; announcement in Japan that Fujita and possibly Phill Baroni will join
&gt; him) illustrates. Bigger fights will occur as the money increases and
&gt; TV exposure continues to increase. HBO is signing the UFC, and Showtime
&gt; is signing the WFA, and that's not stuff I'm making up. The argument
&gt; that its still a fringe sport whereas boxing isn't ends the second you
&gt; turn on Sportscenter or your local news' sports report.
&gt;
&gt; The way things run now will change though...just wait until DKP or Bob
&gt; Arum decide to get serious about MMA. They will. There's too much money
&gt; to ignore, and given that the two biggest promoters consist of a guy
&gt; who's killed two people and another one who got his start promoting
&gt; Evel Knievel's Snake River jump, how can you not expect them to go
&gt; where the money is at some point?

I hope you're right. It would be a lot better for the fighters if there
are multiple promoters giving them the opportunity to sell their
services at a reasonable price.

I never watch Sportcenter or local news. Do they cover MMA now?

Report this message

#35: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-14 17:18:07 by deadandrestless

&gt; I think that Holyfield's history backs up what I'm saying - he had his
&gt; biggest PPVs when he was past his best (Tyson, Lewis), after making his
&gt; name in lower-profile (though still big) fights.

Well, Holyfield's biggest name opponents are Tyson and Lewis. It
shouldn't be a shock that it was successful. Still, he did something
like nearly one million buys when he destroyed Buster Douglas, and the
Bowe series were all huge, huge fights. Foreman too.

&gt; Maybe they'll be in MMA in the states. Whether they're in the UFC or
&gt; not is another matter.

You can bet on them being in a UFC cage. There won't be any shift in
the power structure there for at least a few years.

&gt; I'll take that bet. Will you give me evens on $100?

Heh. We may have to talk about it. I'd probably give you even money for
it, yeah. Do remember though: Mora's bouts with ESPN have attracted
some pretty substantial numbers. Hopkins/Taylor I and II only did
350,000 buys.

&gt; I hope you're right. It would be a lot better for the fighters if there
&gt; are multiple promoters giving them the opportunity to sell their
&gt; services at a reasonable price.

The WFA is definitely making an attempt to do that by offerring huge
money contracts. They forced the UFCs hand and are probably as
instrumental in the PRIDE/UFC deal that we see now coming about as the
issues PRIDE has had back at home with the yakuza scandal.

&gt; I never watch Sportcenter or local news. Do they cover MMA now?

Vegas does coverage of UFC as heavily and in some cases more so than
major boxing cards. California, which is a huge hotbed for the sport,
is also very interested in covering the sport, as virtually all the
sportscasters were shocked when the first Strikeforce MMA show there
sold out an arena with 16,000 seats. USA Today started giving MMA
results alongside boxing in their newspaper as did the New York Times,
and the Washington Post did a full article for UFC 61's coverage. ESPN
still hasn't really done anything with the sport, but Fox Sports Net
hired Dave Doyle as their full time MMA writer.

Report this message

#36: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-14 18:56:49 by deadandrestless

&gt; &gt; Takada's been in some shoots. Basically, the fights he lost. Kerr, both
&gt; &gt; Rickson bouts, and the Tamura fight were all straight up shoots.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I'm not convinced about all those. I don't think Takada's too proud to
&gt; &quot;do the honors,&quot; as they say in pro wrestling.

My understanding is that the first Rickson bout was going to be a work,
but Rickson decided a couple days before hand to reneg on that and go
for a shoot. Seeing as it was too late to pull it off the card, Takada
basically got dominated and beat. Same story for the second bout. The
Kerr one some have said was a work because Kerr would have KOed him,
but Kerr was always so inactive when in top position that I don't see
Rickson having taken a kimura in a couple of minutes to be too fishy.
The Tamura one definitely is. He got KOed pretty brutally. It was
totally one sided, and he took a longer beating than he needed to.

&gt;
&gt; &gt; Ogawa/Goodridge is always said to be a work, but its a GREAT work if it
&gt; &gt; is.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Not any better than some of Sayama's stuff. I have no doubt that it was
&gt; a work.
&gt;

That seems to be popular opinion. I believe it was Coleman who said
Goodridge took $60,000 to drop the fight.

&gt; &gt; Same with the fight with Shamrock/Frye wasn't a shoot. Frye didn't
&gt; &gt; tap because he was chock full of opiates and never felt it (I think he
&gt; &gt; admitted as much).
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Both guys have histories of doing works, and both were pretty decent at
&gt; it. Then there was the fishy knockdown (or fishily fast recovery from
&gt; what looked like a KO) and the ankle-lock that both fighters bravely
&gt; resisted. The split decision. I don't know.

Yeah, I've heard that was a shoot. Frye had some legit injuries from
the bout, and would have tapped...if he hadn't shot himself full of
opiates. I think he admitted that as well.

&gt; &gt; Gracie/Yoshida I and II are both shoots.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I'm not so sure. The first one technically wasn't even MMA, but I look
&gt; at damaging strikes as being one of the surest signs that a fight is
&gt; real. Also, draws are fishy in Pride.

Even some wins are. Ever see Herring/Belfort or Sakuraba/Mezger? The
latter especially.

Report this message

#37: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-14 20:46:59 by Charles Beauchamp

<a href="mailto:deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt; Highly unlikely. UFC resides on the fringe somewhere around roller
&gt;&gt; derby and pro rasslin and more to the point..I don't care how many
&gt;&gt; PPV buys it gets
&gt;
&gt; Reality check: The Washington Post has already started its MMA
&gt; coverage.

So what? Some major papers cover Pro Rasslin as well. I am not being
impressed by this invokation of the Post.

So has Reuters and Fox Sports Net. Of course its not in
&gt; every newspaper yet; the sport has existed for all of 13 years. Of
&gt; course, relying on print rather than the internet is part of the
&gt; reason why outside of De La Hoya, not one boxing event this year tops
&gt; the biggest 3 UFC PPVs.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; I can't get past that someone thought it made sense to shell out
&gt;&gt; major dollars to see Tito Ortiz beat up Ken Shamrock...who has one
&gt;&gt; win in the past 5 years...again. I mean...Ken Shamrock basically
&gt;&gt; rages up in a few interviews..initiates some confrontations and this
&gt;&gt; is what UFC fans jump for and shell out their money to see? WOW!
&gt;
&gt; I'm glad to see Shammy get beat down. I got to see 5 other fights too,
&gt; and had any of the bouts run short, I would have seen more. What is
&gt; there to complain about?

Well ok that is pretty funny. I used to tell people I would pay every month
to see Tommy Morrison get knocked out. &lt;G&gt;
--
v/r Dread Pirate Rackham

&quot;You know one things that's wrong with this country? Everybody gets a
chance to have their fair say.&quot; - President Clinton 28 May 1993

&quot;There is nothing patriotic about hating your country, or pretending
that you can love your country but despise your government.&quot; -
President Clinton 5 May 1995

Report this message

#38: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-14 21:00:38 by Charles Beauchamp

5016 wrote:
&gt; The Sanity Cruzer wrote:
&gt;&gt; &quot;Charles Beauchamp&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:C.E.Beauchamp&#64;NOSPAMcomcast.net" target="_blank">C.E.Beauchamp&#64;NOSPAMcomcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in
&gt;&gt; message &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; Yea well you keep thinking whatever you want. UFC is to me what
&gt;&gt;&gt; soccer is to me which is mildly interesting...just not something
&gt;&gt;&gt; that effects my calendar at all. And Ken Shamrock can't fight a
&gt;&gt;&gt; lick anyhow. The guy is well past shot. Has he even won a major
&gt;&gt;&gt; fight in the past 4 years? How does this guy headline a PPV
&gt;&gt;&gt; against a guy who beat his ass the last time they fought? If UFC
&gt;&gt;&gt; is going to really become interesting they need real fighters with
&gt;&gt;&gt; real skills and not 40 something guys that are on losing streaks
&gt;&gt;&gt; headlining.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Take a look at who's making the money headlining PPV's in boxing:
&gt;&gt; Holyfield, Roy Jones, ODLH, Mosley, Vargas, Tyson, et al. Not one
&gt;&gt; of these fighters is close to what he used to be (with the possible
&gt;&gt; exception of DLH, who doesn't fight much and who hasn't won at the
&gt;&gt; top for awhile).
&gt;
&gt; I think that this has nothing to do with a decline; it is simply that
&gt; fighters build up a name and then trade on it. The biggest fights have
&gt; always included fighters on the downside. Ali's fights in the 70s were
&gt; bigger than his in the 60s, Robinson had bigger fights and was more
&gt; popular at middleweight than at welterweight, Duran at welter rather
&gt; than lightweight etc. It is a very rare fighter who comes out of the
&gt; gate so fast that he can get on PPV-level at his peak - de la Hoya and
&gt; Leonard are the only ones I can think of.
&gt;
&gt; It is also true that fighters climb up most people P4P ratings while
&gt; they are declining. Take, for instance, Tzsyu, who had been knocking
&gt; around the bottom half of most people's top 10 on and off for nearly
&gt; 10 years - as the names above him dropped off (Jones, ODLH, Trinidad
&gt; etc) he climbed up the rankings finally being a consensus top 3 at 35
&gt; just before he lost to Hatton, despite the fact that in the period he
&gt; was at his best (say age 29) he was rated as a marginal top-10
&gt; candidate.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Mark my words, the
&gt;&gt; UFC will be making more money than boxing after a few years.
&gt;
&gt; I don't think that the UFC will be - I think that MMA might, though.
&gt; The UFC is a privately held organization, and there is too much
&gt; conflict of interest to regard it as a real sport. Basically, the UFC
&gt; matches up competitors in order to make the most money for itself. It
&gt; makes the boxing organizations, who at least try to give the semblence
&gt; of giving the best fighter a chance, look like paragons of Athenian
&gt; virtue. That isn't the way a real sport operates - it's the way the
&gt; pro wrestling operates.
&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; The question is; Will there be small clubs for MMA, as boxing once
&gt;&gt; had?

I think MMA fans like to think that their little freak shows are competing
with boxing..when in reality they are pro rasslin with real blood.

Besides the reality that you just don't see world class boxers engaged in
that crap in the first place.
--
v/r Dread Pirate Rackham

&quot;You know one things that's wrong with this country? Everybody gets a
chance to have their fair say.&quot; - President Clinton 28 May 1993

&quot;There is nothing patriotic about hating your country, or pretending
that you can love your country but despise your government.&quot; -
President Clinton 5 May 1995

Report this message

#39: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-14 22:56:14 by deadandrestless

&gt; So what? Some major papers cover Pro Rasslin as well. I am not being
&gt; impressed by this invokation of the Post.

What major newspapers post results of pro wrestling (at least in North
America) in their sports section? Hell, at all? Major media hasn't done
that in 20 years.

Report this message

#40: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-14 23:00:33 by deadandrestless

&gt; I think MMA fans like to think that their little freak shows are competing
&gt; with boxing..when in reality they are pro rasslin with real blood.

But...it is competing with boxing.

&gt;
&gt; Besides the reality that you just don't see world class boxers engaged in
&gt; that crap in the first place.

Why would a world class boxer move to MMA right now? The money is
nothing compared to boxing, and none of them are trained to deal with
the ground game. Until the UFC starts posting similar fight purses
(which its not been doing to maximize their profits), then you won't
see elite boxers go over. You see elite/olympic level wrestlers and
judoka go, though, on a regular basis. Boxing has a future as long as
the purses don't rise dramatically, and will well past that simply
because the talent pool below 155 lbs in MMA ranges from tiny to
nonexistant.

Report this message

#41: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-15 00:15:56 by DCI

On 14 Jul 2006 13:56:14 -0700, <a href="mailto:deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt;
&gt;&gt; So what? Some major papers cover Pro Rasslin as well. I am not being
&gt;&gt; impressed by this invokation of the Post.
&gt;
&gt;What major newspapers post results of pro wrestling (at least in North
&gt;America) in their sports section? Hell, at all? Major media hasn't done
&gt;that in 20 years.

Pro wrestling fan don't read the sport section of newspaper. Why waste
the ink and paper?

DCI

Report this message

#42: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-15 00:36:41 by deadandrestless

&gt; Pro wrestling fan don't read the sport section of newspaper. Why waste
&gt; the ink and paper?
&gt;

Heh. Good point.

Report this message

#43: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-15 02:27:53 by DCI

On 14 Jul 2006 15:36:41 -0700, <a href="mailto:deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt;
&gt;&gt; Pro wrestling fan don't read the sport section of newspaper. Why waste
&gt;&gt; the ink and paper?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;Heh. Good point.

Thank you.

DCI

Report this message

#44: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-15 07:24:39 by Charles Beauchamp

<a href="mailto:deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt; So what? Some major papers cover Pro Rasslin as well. I am not
&gt;&gt; being impressed by this invokation of the Post.
&gt;
&gt; What major newspapers post results of pro wrestling (at least in North
&gt; America) in their sports section? Hell, at all? Major media hasn't
&gt; done that in 20 years.

You should really be careful with sweeping generalizations in the age of the
internet. In less then 5 seconds I found sevearl. Notably the Miami Herald
seems to devote quite a bit comparatively speaking. The point being..BFD
the Post has MMA coverage. That doesn't legitimize anything.

--
v/r Dread Pirate Rackham

&quot;You know one things that's wrong with this country? Everybody gets a
chance to have their fair say.&quot; - President Clinton 28 May 1993

&quot;There is nothing patriotic about hating your country, or pretending
that you can love your country but despise your government.&quot; -
President Clinton 5 May 1995

Report this message

#45: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-15 07:32:25 by Charles Beauchamp

<a href="mailto:deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt; I think MMA fans like to think that their little freak shows are
&gt;&gt; competing with boxing..when in reality they are pro rasslin with
&gt;&gt; real blood.
&gt;
&gt; But...it is competing with boxing.
&gt;

No it isn't. It is acting like it is competing with boxing...but MMA fans
are no doubt more likely to be the folks willing to spend actual money on
the WWE then they are on the IBF. None of my boxing PPV buddies pays any
attention to this UFC stuff. Every UFC fanatic that I know also buys
tickets to pro rasslin matches. Hey to each his own I say. I haven't got
anything against the UFC. But Ken Shamrock who hasn't won a significant
fight in years just headlined a PPV.

&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Besides the reality that you just don't see world class boxers
&gt;&gt; engaged in that crap in the first place.
&gt;
&gt; Why would a world class boxer move to MMA right now? The money is
&gt; nothing compared to boxing,

TADDAH! The Prostitution rests. All other comments are pointless.

and none of them are trained to deal with
&gt; the ground game. Until the UFC starts posting similar fight purses
&gt; (which its not been doing to maximize their profits), then you won't
&gt; see elite boxers go over. You see elite/olympic level wrestlers and
&gt; judoka go, though, on a regular basis. Boxing has a future as long as
&gt; the purses don't rise dramatically, and will well past that simply
&gt; because the talent pool below 155 lbs in MMA ranges from tiny to
&gt; nonexistant.

--
v/r Dread Pirate Rackham

&quot;You know one things that's wrong with this country? Everybody gets a
chance to have their fair say.&quot; - President Clinton 28 May 1993

&quot;There is nothing patriotic about hating your country, or pretending
that you can love your country but despise your government.&quot; -
President Clinton 5 May 1995

Report this message

#46: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-15 15:54:14 by deadandrestless

&gt; No it isn't. It is acting like it is competing with boxing...but MMA fans
&gt; are no doubt more likely to be the folks willing to spend actual money on
&gt; the WWE then they are on the IBF.

Says who? You realize that pretty much every boxing promoter in the
country doesn't think the same way, right? Hardcore boxing fans are
probably gonna still watch boxing, but what about some of those 700,000
that bought Ruiz/Roy Jones Jr? They haven't surfaced since for any
similar card (except perhaps the ODLH mega cards)....so what are they
watching?

&gt; None of my boxing PPV buddies pays any
&gt; attention to this UFC stuff.

Ah, anecdotal evidence. Nothing's more valid.

&gt; Every UFC fanatic that I know also buys
&gt; tickets to pro rasslin matches.

See above.

&gt; Hey to each his own I say. I haven't got
&gt; anything against the UFC. But Ken Shamrock who hasn't won a significant
&gt; fight in years just headlined a PPV.

He follows in the footsteps of Mike Tyson, Roy Jones, Yori Boy Campas,
Julio Cesar Chavez, Virgil Hill, and many other illustrious fighters in
the last 18 months who are in the same boat.

&gt; &gt; Why would a world class boxer move to MMA right now? The money is
&gt; &gt; nothing compared to boxing,
&gt;
&gt; TADDAH! The Prostitution rests. All other comments are pointless.

*Right Now* is the key. If you think that the UFC is going to get away
with paying $55,000 to show and an additional $55,000 to win when their
buyrates are stratospheric, you're nuts. Most of their marquee fighters
have contracts that will be running out in the next 12 months. The
money is going to continue to go up, big time. You won't see a
championship level fighter in MMA today or tommorrow (though, yet
again, Shannon Briggs fought for K-1 2 years and is fighting for the
world heavyweight title in November), but you will see it happen should
MMA's popularity continue upward.

Report this message

#47: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-16 01:47:48 by Charles Beauchamp

<a href="mailto:deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt; No it isn't. It is acting like it is competing with boxing...but
&gt;&gt; MMA fans are no doubt more likely to be the folks willing to spend
&gt;&gt; actual money on the WWE then they are on the IBF.
&gt;
&gt; Says who?

Yes says me because I am a boxing fan you idiot. Who the Hell else would
one seek the information from?

You realize that pretty much every boxing promoter in the
&gt; country doesn't think the same way, right? Hardcore boxing fans are
&gt; probably gonna still watch boxing, but what about some of those
&gt; 700,000 that bought Ruiz/Roy Jones Jr? They haven't surfaced since
&gt; for any similar card (except perhaps the ODLH mega cards)....so what
&gt; are they watching?
&gt;

OK that is a pretty retarded comment. Hundreds of thousands of those people
have been buying all of the other PPVs have come along since. Your
statement reads as if those 700,000 fight fans that bought that card (I
didn't. I didn't see it as PPV worthy since it was not a compelling matchup
IMO as I figured Jones was taking the &quot;easiest&quot; route to an alphabelt) are
the only boxing fans that buy PPVs or some other nonsense.

&gt;&gt; None of my boxing PPV buddies pays any
&gt;&gt; attention to this UFC stuff.
&gt;
&gt; Ah, anecdotal evidence. Nothing's more valid.
&gt;

It is absolutely valid in the absence..of any actual scientific data. What
is more graspable is the profile of the fans. It really is irrelevant what
some boxing promoters think as they aren't neccessarily drawing from the
same crowd. Don King has long long made obvious his admiration of Vince
McMahon Jr in the WWE. That would seem to mitigate your baseless assertion.

&gt;&gt; Every UFC fanatic that I know also buys
&gt;&gt; tickets to pro rasslin matches.
&gt;
&gt; See above.
&gt;

Indeed. So why should I not believe evidence that is plainly in front of my
own actual eyes in favor of assertions by some idiot on USENET that has
nothing to backup what he is saying?

&gt;&gt; Hey to each his own I say. I haven't got
&gt;&gt; anything against the UFC. But Ken Shamrock who hasn't won a
&gt;&gt; significant fight in years just headlined a PPV.
&gt;
&gt; He follows in the footsteps of Mike Tyson, Roy Jones, Yori Boy Campas,
&gt; Julio Cesar Chavez, Virgil Hill, and many other illustrious fighters
&gt; in the last 18 months who are in the same boat.
&gt;

Indeed and none of those guys was the main show in the sport months in
advance with the exception of Jones who until his very last fight was still
assumed by most to be a top P4P fighter. Whereas over the last 18 months we
have also had Wright, Hopkins, Taylor etc headlining PPVs. Where is the UFC
equivalent?

&gt;&gt;&gt; Why would a world class boxer move to MMA right now? The money is
&gt;&gt;&gt; nothing compared to boxing,
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; TADDAH! The Prostitution rests. All other comments are pointless.
&gt;
&gt; *Right Now* is the key.

Right now is what matters.

If you think that the UFC is going to get away
&gt; with paying $55,000 to show and an additional $55,000 to win when
&gt; their buyrates are stratospheric, you're nuts.

Strawman and silly.

Most of their marquee
&gt; fighters have contracts that will be running out in the next 12
&gt; months. The money is going to continue to go up, big time. You won't
&gt; see a championship level fighter in MMA today or tommorrow (though,
&gt; yet again, Shannon Briggs fought for K-1 2 years and is fighting for
&gt; the world heavyweight title in November), but you will see it happen
&gt; should MMA's popularity continue upward.

Shannon Briggs is not a top level professional boxer. His alphabelt bid
does not interest me much at all. A win by Briggs would be a sensational
upset. Ken Shamrock just headlined a UFC card and despite getting taken out
in the first round of his previous two fights is still by far the most
recognizeable name in that promotion. Wow astonishingly enough he once
again got blasted out in the first round. Yippee.

Do I think UFC is going to &quot;get away with paying&quot; $55,000 for appearance and
prize? Yes. You know why? Because there are plenty of idiots out there
willing to shell out money to watch guys like Tank Abbott get their ass
kicked the majority of their fights and act like they have this innovative
amazing new sport. The UFC is just going to invent and manufacture a few
more stars out of guys that can't really fight a lick.

I would take John Carlo of this NG over any UFC fighter you could name
without exception in a MMA fight.
--
v/r Dread Pirate Rackham

&quot;You know one things that's wrong with this country? Everybody gets a
chance to have their fair say.&quot; - President Clinton 28 May 1993

&quot;There is nothing patriotic about hating your country, or pretending
that you can love your country but despise your government.&quot; -
President Clinton 5 May 1995

Report this message

#48: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-16 05:45:38 by deadandrestless

&gt; &gt; Says who?
&gt;
&gt; Yes says me because I am a boxing fan you idiot. Who the Hell else would
&gt; one seek the information from?

You're a hardcore boxing fan. Big shock that you might be more
interested in spending PPV dollars on boxing.


&gt; OK that is a pretty retarded comment. Hundreds of thousands of those people
&gt; have been buying all of the other PPVs have come along since. Your
&gt; statement reads as if those 700,000 fight fans that bought that card (I
&gt; didn't. I didn't see it as PPV worthy since it was not a compelling matchup
&gt; IMO as I figured Jones was taking the &quot;easiest&quot; route to an alphabelt) are
&gt; the only boxing fans that buy PPVs or some other nonsense.
&gt;

Since Jones/Ruiz, no PPVs that don't include Oscar have approached that
mark, not even Winky Wright/Trinidad.


&gt; It is absolutely valid in the absence..of any actual scientific data.

There is scientific data though. I mentioned that there's been studies
done, which would be expected. And the UFC sees themselves as more a
competitor to boxing, and thus market themselves more to sports fans
than wrestling fans. And ratings seem to show this to be true.

&gt; Indeed. So why should I not believe evidence that is plainly in front of my
&gt; own actual eyes in favor of assertions by some idiot on USENET that has
&gt; nothing to backup what he is saying?

You have nothing to back up your assertions other than some empty words
about your PPV buddies.
&gt;


&gt; Indeed and none of those guys was the main show in the sport months in
&gt; advance with the exception of Jones who until his very last fight was still
&gt; assumed by most to be a top P4P fighter. Whereas over the last 18 months we
&gt; have also had Wright, Hopkins, Taylor etc headlining PPVs. Where is the UFC
&gt; equivalent?

You mean like Couture/Liddell III? Or The Arlovski/Sylvia II/Tito
Ortiz/Forrest Griffin bouts? The use of old stars has only shown up in
two of the last 10 UFC cards. You'd have to go back to UFC 48 to see
such a &quot;retro&quot; match, and that pitted two old guys against one another.

&gt; Right now is what matters.

3 years ago, the UFC was doing 45,000 buys on PPV. The future matters
plenty too, bud. They're doing 10 times that now.

&gt; Strawman and silly.

Truth and reality?

&gt; Shannon Briggs is not a top level professional boxer. His alphabelt bid
&gt; does not interest me much at all. A win by Briggs would be a sensational
&gt; upset. Ken Shamrock just headlined a UFC card and despite getting taken out
&gt; in the first round of his previous two fights is still by far the most
&gt; recognizeable name in that promotion. Wow astonishingly enough he once
&gt; again got blasted out in the first round. Yippee.

Briggs is being used for the same purpose as Ken Shamrock: To elevate
Wladimir Klitschko.

&gt; Do I think UFC is going to &quot;get away with paying&quot; $55,000 for appearance and
&gt; prize? Yes. You know why? Because there are plenty of idiots out there
&gt; willing to shell out money to watch guys like Tank Abbott get their ass
&gt; kicked the majority of their fights and act like they have this innovative
&gt; amazing new sport. The UFC is just going to invent and manufacture a few
&gt; more stars out of guys that can't really fight a lick.

Problem is, those guys will have contracts that run out and will
bounce. If Tito Ortiz left for the WFA right now, he'd change their
business model in a huge fashion. That's why he signed recently and got
$300,000 a fight and up, whereas guys like Matt Hughes and Rich
Franklin, who signed contracts before the boom, aren't getting that
money.

&gt; I would take John Carlo of this NG over any UFC fighter you could name
&gt; without exception in a MMA fight.

John Carlo himself wouldn't be dumb enough to take that bet. Any of
them brought in would just get taken down and laid on or beaten up. If
you never train to defend a shoot, you're not suddenly gonna learn.

Report this message

#49: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-16 07:29:50 by Charles Beauchamp

<a href="mailto:deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt; Says who?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Yes says me because I am a boxing fan you idiot. Who the Hell else
&gt;&gt; would one seek the information from?
&gt;
&gt; You're a hardcore boxing fan. Big shock that you might be more
&gt; interested in spending PPV dollars on boxing.
&gt;

Indeed..wasn't that the point made in the first place?

&gt;
&gt;&gt; OK that is a pretty retarded comment. Hundreds of thousands of
&gt;&gt; those people have been buying all of the other PPVs have come along
&gt;&gt; since. Your statement reads as if those 700,000 fight fans that
&gt;&gt; bought that card (I didn't. I didn't see it as PPV worthy since it
&gt;&gt; was not a compelling matchup IMO as I figured Jones was taking the
&gt;&gt; &quot;easiest&quot; route to an alphabelt) are the only boxing fans that buy
&gt;&gt; PPVs or some other nonsense.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Since Jones/Ruiz, no PPVs that don't include Oscar have approached
&gt; that mark, not even Winky Wright/Trinidad.
&gt;

So what? That really has no relevance to what was said. Lower PPV rates in
fights doesn't somehow equate to boxing fans being more likely to order UFC.
The two ideas are completely exclusive of one another.

&gt;
&gt;&gt; It is absolutely valid in the absence..of any actual scientific data.
&gt;
&gt; There is scientific data though. I mentioned that there's been studies
&gt; done, which would be expected. And the UFC sees themselves as more a
&gt; competitor to boxing, and thus market themselves more to sports fans
&gt; than wrestling fans. And ratings seem to show this to be true.
&gt;

You mentioned garbage but didn't cite anything. Besides the basis of
scientifically &quot;proving&quot; something that is as nebulous as..what would you
rather spend your money on seems kind of far fetched to me. And one more
time..UFC can see themselves as competing with whoever or whatever they
want. That doesn't change the fact of what UFC actually is. UFC is a
promotion within MMA that uses more of a pro wrestling promotional model.
The appeal is to a crowd that may include some boxing fans but is far more
likely to include non boxing fans that are more into the showstyle
entertainment that is pro wrestling.

&gt;&gt; Indeed. So why should I not believe evidence that is plainly in
&gt;&gt; front of my own actual eyes in favor of assertions by some idiot on
&gt;&gt; USENET that has nothing to backup what he is saying?
&gt;
&gt; You have nothing to back up your assertions other than some empty
&gt; words about your PPV buddies.
&gt;&gt;

You damned idiot...I cited exactly what is self evident. You have
cited..nothing. One more time..why should I take the word of some idiot on
USENET who is just pulling stuff out of his ass instead of what is plainly
visible right in front of my face?

&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Indeed and none of those guys was the main show in the sport months
&gt;&gt; in advance with the exception of Jones who until his very last fight
&gt;&gt; was still assumed by most to be a top P4P fighter. Whereas over the
&gt;&gt; last 18 months we have also had Wright, Hopkins, Taylor etc
&gt;&gt; headlining PPVs. Where is the UFC equivalent?
&gt;
&gt; You mean like Couture/Liddell III? Or The Arlovski/Sylvia II/Tito
&gt; Ortiz/Forrest Griffin bouts?

Who? Hahaha. Again the Prostitution rests.

The use of old stars has only shown up in
&gt; two of the last 10 UFC cards. You'd have to go back to UFC 48 to see
&gt; such a &quot;retro&quot; match, and that pitted two old guys against one
&gt; another.
&gt;

And the amazing thing is...outside of UFC fans I am guessing if you walked
down the street and asked a random sampling of public...perhaps the only
name from UFC that gets even slight name recognition I assume would be Ken
Shamrock. Irony eh? And that is more because of TADDAH his days in the
WWF. Crazy stuff really.

&gt;&gt; Right now is what matters.
&gt;
&gt; 3 years ago, the UFC was doing 45,000 buys on PPV. The future matters
&gt; plenty too, bud. They're doing 10 times that now.
&gt;

Good for them. So?

&gt;&gt; Strawman and silly.
&gt;
&gt; Truth and reality?
&gt;

Nope. It was just a strawman. Had nothing to do with anything. You don't
need to invent points for me. I hold up my own end of the debate just fine.

&gt;&gt; Shannon Briggs is not a top level professional boxer. His alphabelt
&gt;&gt; bid does not interest me much at all. A win by Briggs would be a
&gt;&gt; sensational upset. Ken Shamrock just headlined a UFC card and
&gt;&gt; despite getting taken out in the first round of his previous two
&gt;&gt; fights is still by far the most recognizeable name in that
&gt;&gt; promotion. Wow astonishingly enough he once again got blasted out
&gt;&gt; in the first round. Yippee.
&gt;
&gt; Briggs is being used for the same purpose as Ken Shamrock: To elevate
&gt; Wladimir Klitschko.
&gt;

He is a sacrificial lamb. Klitschko already has far greater name
recognition in the USA..and worldwide then Shannon Briggs. So that would be
incorrect on your part. Blasting out Briggs will do absolutely nothing to
elevate Klitschko's reputation other then hey look he scored a
knockout...wow. Zzzzzz. Ortiz beating up Shamrock got no interest outside
of UFC fans. The only forum I have seen it mentioned anyplace..happens to
be this one right here. UFC is a fringe event. So there are half a million
folks willing to spend money on PPVs. BFD. Against the backdrop of
300million people in this country it is a certainty that dozens of times as
many people can name a list of boxers active today then can name anyone in
UFC that isn't..well..Ken Shamrock. Damndest thing.

&gt;&gt; Do I think UFC is going to &quot;get away with paying&quot; $55,000 for
&gt;&gt; appearance and prize? Yes. You know why? Because there are plenty
&gt;&gt; of idiots out there willing to shell out money to watch guys like
&gt;&gt; Tank Abbott get their ass kicked the majority of their fights and
&gt;&gt; act like they have this innovative amazing new sport. The UFC is
&gt;&gt; just going to invent and manufacture a few more stars out of guys
&gt;&gt; that can't really fight a lick.
&gt;
&gt; Problem is, those guys will have contracts that run out and will
&gt; bounce.

Congratulations on not looking up while that point just flew right over your
head. One more time here...do I think UFC will get away with paying $55,000
appearance fees for UFC PPVs? Yes. Because they will just go find some
more taxi drivers to bill as major ass kickers and send them in there. As
current contracts end UFC will just go cheap and get some different guys in
there and promote those.

If Tito Ortiz left for the WFA right now, he'd change their
&gt; business model in a huge fashion. That's why he signed recently and
&gt; got $300,000 a fight and up, whereas guys like Matt Hughes and Rich
&gt; Franklin, who signed contracts before the boom, aren't getting that
&gt; money.
&gt;

And essentially anyone boxing on the feature with any of the premium cable
networks in this country make several times that...several times per year.
That before &quot;graduating&quot; to PPV. So what is your point?

BTW...the stars of WWE also make far more then that..so yapping about what
Tito's PPV fee is as if that tells us something regarding the UFC legitimacy
and comparing it to boxing is fairly far fetched still.

&gt;&gt; I would take John Carlo of this NG over any UFC fighter you could
&gt;&gt; name without exception in a MMA fight.
&gt;
&gt; John Carlo himself wouldn't be dumb enough to take that bet. Any of
&gt; them brought in would just get taken down and laid on or beaten up. If
&gt; you never train to defend a shoot, you're not suddenly gonna learn.

Obviously you don't know who John Carlo is. He has fought in MMA already.
John Carlo is the 2nd or 3rd biggest badass butt kicker on this Newsgroup
after punchy and of course..me. WOOHOO!!! I am the flipping Heavyweight
Champion of RSB 4 years running now.
--
v/r Dread Pirate Rackham

&quot;You know one things that's wrong with this country? Everybody gets a
chance to have their fair say.&quot; - President Clinton 28 May 1993

&quot;There is nothing patriotic about hating your country, or pretending
that you can love your country but despise your government.&quot; -
President Clinton 5 May 1995

Report this message

#50: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-16 16:16:32 by deadandrestless

&gt; Indeed..wasn't that the point made in the first place?

How many hardcore boxing fans actually exist though?


&gt; So what? That really has no relevance to what was said. Lower PPV rates in
&gt; fights doesn't somehow equate to boxing fans being more likely to order UFC.
&gt; The two ideas are completely exclusive of one another.

The point is that there's a large segment of the population who buys
PPVs only when they excite them; casual fans. UFC isn't try to take
away hardcore fans, because people with 2000 VHS in their basement
aren't likely to just stop watching boxing. They're looking to convert
those casual fans, not pro wrestling fans. The numbers back it up.



&gt; You mentioned garbage but didn't cite anything. Besides the basis
of
&gt; scientifically &quot;proving&quot; something that is as nebulous as..what would you
&gt; rather spend your money on seems kind of far fetched to me. And one more
&gt; time..UFC can see themselves as competing with whoever or whatever they
&gt; want. That doesn't change the fact of what UFC actually is. UFC is a
&gt; promotion within MMA that uses more of a pro wrestling promotional model.
&gt; The appeal is to a crowd that may include some boxing fans but is far more
&gt; likely to include non boxing fans that are more into the showstyle
&gt; entertainment that is pro wrestling.

I don't question how MMA is promoted, HOWEVER that does not change who
its being marketed to. And its not pro wrestling fans.

As it is, that aspect of its promotion has been entirely positive for
its move into the mainstream. Unlike boxing, where there's 4 world
champions for each of the 17 divisions, there's 5 divisions in the UFC
and one champion for each.

&gt; You damned idiot...I cited exactly what is self evident. You have
&gt; cited..nothing. One more time..why should I take the word of some idiot on
&gt; USENET who is just pulling stuff out of his ass instead of what is plainly
&gt; visible right in front of my face?

What's plainly visible to you is ridiculous and nigh idiotic to the
educated?

&gt; &gt; You mean like Couture/Liddell III? Or The Arlovski/Sylvia II/Tito
&gt; &gt; Ortiz/Forrest Griffin bouts?
&gt;
&gt; Who? Hahaha. Again the Prostitution rests.

&quot;Who?&quot; I dunno, it seems more people know who Forrest and Tito are than
Vargas and Mosley or Pacquiao and Morales at this juncture, at least
that's what the buyrates are showing. I hate to be the arbiter of bad
news, but as boxing fans, we follow a niche sport these days that gets
almost no interest from the mainstream. You'll be lucky if you can see
a single mention of the undercard from last night's PPV or anything
about Felix Sturm's KO loss in your newspaper this morning, but the
chances aren't bad that you'll be able to read about the UFC results
next August following UFC 62.


&gt; And the amazing thing is...outside of UFC fans I am guessing if you walked
&gt; down the street and asked a random sampling of public...perhaps the only
&gt; name from UFC that gets even slight name recognition I assume would be Ken
&gt; Shamrock. Irony eh? And that is more because of TADDAH his days in the
&gt; WWF. Crazy stuff really.

Ken Shamrock more than Royce Gracie? Or Forrest Griffin? Dude, you're
woefully out of touch. More people watched Gracie/Hughes than
Trinidad/Wright, man.

&gt; Good for them. So?

It means that a lot more people are watching. Argurably more than
boxing.

&gt; He is a sacrificial lamb. Klitschko already has far greater name
&gt; recognition in the USA..and worldwide then Shannon Briggs. So that would be
&gt; incorrect on your part.

I disagree totally. Briggs had recognition at a time when people were
still paying attention to the corpse of the heavyweight division. No
one is watching heavyweight fights these days: Barrett/Rahman sold
under 50,000 buys. Vitali/Danny Williams got 150,000. The four fight
card from Don King in late 2004 got 175,000. Briggs still has rub to
give, and Wladimir needs it. Especially with Briggs' hard punching.


&gt; Blasting out Briggs will do absolutely nothing to
&gt; elevate Klitschko's reputation other then hey look he scored a
&gt; knockout...wow. Zzzzzz. Ortiz beating up Shamrock got no interest outside
&gt; of UFC fans.

....and major media.

The only forum I have seen it mentioned anyplace..happens to
&gt; be this one right here. UFC is a fringe event. So there are half a million
&gt; folks willing to spend money on PPVs. BFD. Against the backdrop of
&gt; 300million people in this country it is a certainty that dozens of times as
&gt; many people can name a list of boxers active today then can name anyone in
&gt; UFC that isn't..well..Ken Shamrock. Damndest thing.

What active fighters not named Roy Jones or Oscar De La Hoya do you
think are realistically more recognizeable to the general public than
&quot;anyone in the UFC&quot;?

&gt; Congratulations on not looking up while that point just flew right over your
&gt; head. One more time here...do I think UFC will get away with paying $55,000
&gt; appearance fees for UFC PPVs? Yes. Because they will just go find some
&gt; more taxi drivers to bill as major ass kickers and send them in there. As
&gt; current contracts end UFC will just go cheap and get some different guys in
&gt; there and promote those.

I can't even bother arguing against this, simply because its so
ridiculous and goes against every basic tenet of fight promotion. I'm
sure they'll let all their champions just walk and not see a
difference.

&gt; And essentially anyone boxing on the feature with any of the premium cable
&gt; networks in this country make several times that...several times per year.
&gt; That before &quot;graduating&quot; to PPV. So what is your point?

That's not true at all. The folks on BAD or most of Showtime's
America's Fight Night series aren't making any more than the newly
signed UFC talent. Do you really think a fight like Garcia/Rivera or
Maythsse/Williams cost either network a million dollars to put
together?

&gt; BTW...the stars of WWE also make far more then that..so yapping
about what
&gt; Tito's PPV fee is as if that tells us something regarding the UFC legitimacy
&gt; and comparing it to boxing is fairly far fetched still.

If they do, its solely because of merchandise. Most of the guys are
woefully underpaid.

&gt; Obviously you don't know who John Carlo is. He has fought in MMA already.
&gt; John Carlo is the 2nd or 3rd biggest badass butt kicker on this Newsgroup
&gt; after punchy and of course..me. WOOHOO!!! I am the flipping Heavyweight
&gt; Champion of RSB 4 years running now.

I know who John Carlo is quite well. You can see him over at
boxrec.com's forums constantly getting into arguments with Stacy
Goodson these days.

Report this message

#51: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-16 17:00:34 by deadandrestless

&gt; You should really be careful with sweeping generalizations in the age of the
&gt; internet. In less then 5 seconds I found sevearl. Notably the Miami Herald
&gt; seems to devote quite a bit comparatively speaking. The point being..BFD
&gt; the Post has MMA coverage. That doesn't legitimize anything.

You found &quot;several&quot;. That's great. I'm sure they enjoy the readership
of the Times, Post, and USA Today, all of which are national
newspapers.

BTW, I myself put in &quot;WWE&quot;, &quot;WWE results&quot;, and &quot;WWE News&quot;. Last I
checked, Pro Wrestling Torch is not a weekly publication. &quot;UFC News&quot;
not only pulls up web based material (for instance, Sherdog), but at
least six actual newspapers on the front page alone.

Oh, interesting note: Roy Jones Jr.'s next fight in Idaho has sold,
supposedly, under a thousand tickets. Idaho's first MMA event occurred
this weekend and sold 6,500.

Report this message

#52: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-16 20:01:20 by Charles Beauchamp

<a href="mailto:deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt; You should really be careful with sweeping generalizations in the
&gt;&gt; age of the internet. In less then 5 seconds I found sevearl.
&gt;&gt; Notably the Miami Herald seems to devote quite a bit comparatively
&gt;&gt; speaking. The point being..BFD the Post has MMA coverage. That
&gt;&gt; doesn't legitimize anything.
&gt;
&gt; You found &quot;several&quot;. That's great. I'm sure they enjoy the readership
&gt; of the Times, Post, and USA Today, all of which are national
&gt; newspapers.
&gt;

Ahh moving of goalposts. If I was a guessing man I'd guess the Miami Herald
approaches the readership of the Post. The Times covers MMA?

&gt; BTW, I myself put in &quot;WWE&quot;, &quot;WWE results&quot;, and &quot;WWE News&quot;. Last I
&gt; checked, Pro Wrestling Torch is not a weekly publication. &quot;UFC News&quot;
&gt; not only pulls up web based material (for instance, Sherdog), but at
&gt; least six actual newspapers on the front page alone.
&gt;

Speaking of selective googling. Hey if you are going to do a comparison
then be honest about ok?! You have zero shot at all of winning a debate on
the public awareness of UFC vs. Professional Wrestling. Not sure how that
is relevant either. You were the one that propped up the Washington Post as
if that means something. What you have not done is explain why that is
somehow relevant.

&gt; Oh, interesting note: Roy Jones Jr.'s next fight in Idaho has sold,
&gt; supposedly, under a thousand tickets. Idaho's first MMA event occurred
&gt; this weekend and sold 6,500.

And if the WWE goes to Boise it outsells both of them. Again..what has that
got to do with anything? Roy Jones Jr has no business fighting anywhere and
I wouldn't pay to see him anymore then I would pay to watch that fraudulent
promotion you are ejaculating over in this thread.
--
v/r Dread Pirate Rackham

&quot;You know one things that's wrong with this country? Everybody gets a
chance to have their fair say.&quot; - President Clinton 28 May 1993

&quot;There is nothing patriotic about hating your country, or pretending
that you can love your country but despise your government.&quot; -
President Clinton 5 May 1995

Report this message

#53: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-16 20:31:21 by Charles Beauchamp

<a href="mailto:deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">deadandrestless&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt; Indeed..wasn't that the point made in the first place?
&gt;
&gt; How many hardcore boxing fans actually exist though?
&gt;

More then UFC. That is why boxing remains more popular then UFC will ever
be.

&gt;
&gt;&gt; So what? That really has no relevance to what was said. Lower PPV
&gt;&gt; rates in fights doesn't somehow equate to boxing fans being more
&gt;&gt; likely to order UFC. The two ideas are completely exclusive of one
&gt;&gt; another.
&gt;
&gt; The point is that there's a large segment of the population who buys
&gt; PPVs only when they excite them;

DUH! Hello Captain Obvious.....I as much as said that in the very first
post. I guess I am several times smarter then your average UFC PPV
subscriber since I do not find interest in matchups where a 40 something guy
who hasn't won a damned thing in years..and has been stopped in the first
round his last two times out is rematched with a younger guy who crushed him
the first time around. Oh wow Shamrock got blasted out in the first round
again. ASTONISHING!!!! That isn't a competitive event. It is a result
absurdly predictable.

casual fans. UFC isn't try to take
&gt; away hardcore fans, because people with 2000 VHS in their basement
&gt; aren't likely to just stop watching boxing. They're looking to convert
&gt; those casual fans, not pro wrestling fans. The numbers back it up.
&gt;

The numbers do not back it up because there are no numbers. You can assert
it all you want. The fact remains the demographic most likely to jump at
UFC are the same demographic most likely to be interested in WWE Summerslam
then they are to jump at the next PBF PPV.

Oh and the proof? See Japan where there is a thriving boxing industry
today...while their pro wrestling has waned with the dramatic rise of MMA in
various formats. MMA is several orders more popular there then it is here.

&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt; You mentioned garbage but didn't cite anything. Besides the basis
&gt; of
&gt;&gt; scientifically &quot;proving&quot; something that is as nebulous as..what
&gt;&gt; would you rather spend your money on seems kind of far fetched to
&gt;&gt; me. And one more time..UFC can see themselves as competing with
&gt;&gt; whoever or whatever they want. That doesn't change the fact of what
&gt;&gt; UFC actually is. UFC is a promotion within MMA that uses more of a
&gt;&gt; pro wrestling promotional model. The appeal is to a crowd that may
&gt;&gt; include some boxing fans but is far more likely to include non
&gt;&gt; boxing fans that are more into the showstyle entertainment that is
&gt;&gt; pro wrestling.
&gt;
&gt; I don't question how MMA is promoted, HOWEVER that does not change who
&gt; its being marketed to. And its not pro wrestling fans.
&gt;

You are retarded. I think I am done with this. You really don't know what
you are talking about. How it is marketed is determined by the target
audience. MMA geeks can pretend that the target audience is boxing
fans...but the fact remains that the target audience is pro wrestling fans.
Less educated and sophisticated...more likely to bite at the name Ken
Shamrock...who even today remains the only name recognizeable performer in
that sham industry.

&gt; As it is, that aspect of its promotion has been entirely positive for
&gt; its move into the mainstream.

UFC is not mainstream.


Unlike boxing, where there's 4 world
&gt; champions for each of the 17 divisions, there's 5 divisions in the UFC
&gt; and one champion for each.
&gt;

See that is a bogus comparison because UFC is just one of a confusing mass
of promotions all trying to fight over the same audience. 18-35 year old
white males of lower income and low education. The tractor pull crowd.
Nothing wrong with that mind you. Just don't go pretending it is something
that it is not.

&gt;&gt; You damned idiot...I cited exactly what is self evident. You have
&gt;&gt; cited..nothing. One more time..why should I take the word of some
&gt;&gt; idiot on USENET who is just pulling stuff out of his ass instead of
&gt;&gt; what is plainly visible right in front of my face?
&gt;
&gt; What's plainly visible to you is ridiculous and nigh idiotic to the
&gt; educated?

Um...you can't read. I know not one boxing fan that buys UFC PPVs. The
only guys I know that buy that UFC crap also order WWE ppvs. That makes
sense given the promotional styles and the willingness of wrestling fans to
watch sports entertainment masquerading as an actual competitive event with
highly suspect results scattered all over their history. And while we can
debate the honesty of boxing...the perception among the general population
is still that boxing is a legitimate sport while UFC is a side show.

&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; You mean like Couture/Liddell III? Or The Arlovski/Sylvia II/Tito
&gt;&gt;&gt; Ortiz/Forrest Griffin bouts?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Who? Hahaha. Again the Prostitution rests.
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Who?&quot; I dunno, it seems more people know who Forrest and Tito are
&gt; than Vargas and Mosley or Pacquiao and Morales at this juncture,

Probably true for Tito..no possible way that is true for Forrest. And it is
absolutely obvious that the public at large will respond with recognition
with most of the boxers named above then would for essentially anyone in MMA
not named Ken Shamrock...who can't fight anyhow.

at
&gt; least that's what the buyrates are showing.

See you keep tossing up buyrate claims firstly without citing...and secondly
as if they are telling us something. PPV numbers of random cards are a
pretty silly method of measurement of mainstream status. Besides the fact
that boxing overall is a far bigger money maker then MMA is not just in the
USA but in virtually every country in the world. You can keep comparing
apples and monkey butts but that isn't really proving anything. Do you have
an actual point somewhere in here?

I hate to be the arbiter
&gt; of bad news, but as boxing fans, we follow a niche sport these days
&gt; that gets almost no interest from the mainstream.

MMA gets absolutely no interest from the mainstream to wit...ESPN still
mentions major fight results. I didn't notice the Shamrock Ortiz result
mentioned anyplace but USENET...on a boxing NG. Speaking of fringe.

You'll be lucky if
&gt; you can see a single mention of the undercard from last night's PPV
&gt; or anything about Felix Sturm's KO loss in your newspaper this
&gt; morning, but the chances aren't bad that you'll be able to read about
&gt; the UFC results next August following UFC 62.
&gt;

Baloney. You won't see a mention of UFC results in any but a few odd papers
here and there and there will be not a single word on any national
broadcasts...anywhere...including ESPN or FOXSPORTS. Because UFC is still a
fringe &quot;sport.&quot;

&gt;
&gt;&gt; And the amazing thing is...outside of UFC fans I am guessing if you
&gt;&gt; walked down the street and asked a random sampling of
&gt;&gt; public...perhaps the only name from UFC that gets even slight name
&gt;&gt; recognition I assume would be Ken Shamrock. Irony eh? And that is
&gt;&gt; more because of TADDAH his days in the WWF. Crazy stuff really.
&gt;
&gt; Ken Shamrock more than Royce Gracie?

From the average person on the street? Absolutely. Royce Gracie and the
Gracie family are major league bad asses but they are unknown in this
country except within MMA circles.

Or Forrest Griffin? Dude, you're
&gt; woefully out of touch. More people watched Gracie/Hughes than
&gt; Trinidad/Wright, man.
&gt;

You are insane. Trinidad/Wright was on PPV and then &quot;free HBO&quot; a few days
later. Millions watched it. And if you walk outside your cardboard box and
start randomly asking people if they have heard of Forrest Griffin and then
Felix Trinidad it is a guarantee that more people will respond affirmative
to Trinidad. I am out of touch? You read like you haven't been around
anyone but MMA geeks for months or something.

&gt;&gt; Good for them. So?
&gt;
&gt; It means that a lot more people are watching. Argurably more than
&gt; boxing.
&gt;

No it doesn't. See you keep floating up the supposed relevance of singluar
UFC ppv numbers being the arbiter ignoring the fact that for most of you
idiots buying into that sham &quot;sport&quot; that ppv is virtually the only access
you get to it. And for your money you get high quality entertainment
watching Ken Shamrock do his best Leon Spinks immitation.

&gt;&gt; He is a sacrificial lamb. Klitschko already has far greater name
&gt;&gt; recognition in the USA..and worldwide then Shannon Briggs. So that
&gt;&gt; would be incorrect on your part.
&gt;
&gt; I disagree totally.

Goodness you are stupid. Where do you get your information from? Shannon
Briggs has never ever headlined a major fight in his life. Other then the
most hard core boxing fans he has been irrelevant his entire career.

Briggs had recognition at a time when people were
&gt; still paying attention to the corpse of the heavyweight division. No
&gt; one is watching heavyweight fights these days: Barrett/Rahman sold
&gt; under 50,000 buys. Vitali/Danny Williams got 150,000. The four fight
&gt; card from Don King in late 2004 got 175,000. Briggs still has rub to
&gt; give, and Wladimir needs it. Especially with Briggs' hard punching.
&gt;

You are wrong. The draw on that fight is Wladimir...Briggs is just the
designated punching bag. He has zero name and never did.

&gt;
&gt;&gt; Blasting out Briggs will do absolutely nothing to
&gt;&gt; elevate Klitschko's reputation other then hey look he scored a
&gt;&gt; knockout...wow. Zzzzzz. Ortiz beating up Shamrock got no interest
&gt;&gt; outside of UFC fans.
&gt;
&gt; ...and major media.
&gt;

There was zero &quot;major&quot; media coverage of the Shamrock Ortiz fight outside of
the freak show element because of the BS television show that regularly drew
less then a 1.0 share in television ratings. Nice try though.

&gt; The only forum I have seen it mentioned anyplace..happens to
&gt;&gt; be this one right here. UFC is a fringe event. So there are half a
&gt;&gt; million folks willing to spend money on PPVs. BFD. Against the
&gt;&gt; backdrop of 300million people in this country it is a certainty that
&gt;&gt; dozens of times as many people can name a list of boxers active
&gt;&gt; today then can name anyone in UFC that isn't..well..Ken Shamrock.
&gt;&gt; Damndest thing.
&gt;
&gt; What active fighters not named Roy Jones or Oscar De La Hoya do you
&gt; think are realistically more recognizeable to the general public than
&gt; &quot;anyone in the UFC&quot;?
&gt;

ODL you are precious. Two of them fought last night on PPV. Holyfield and
Rahman are. James Toney certainly is. It is a certainty that Floyd
Mayweather Jr is. It is an absolute obvious fact that Hopkins Taylor and
Wright are. You could bet your paycheck that Barrera is. Hell I wouldn't
be surprised if Naseem Hamed has more name recognition sitting in his prison
cell right now then any UFC fighter not named Ken Shamrock.

&gt;&gt; Congratulations on not looking up while that point just flew right
&gt;&gt; over your head. One more time here...do I think UFC will get away
&gt;&gt; with paying $55,000 appearance fees for UFC PPVs? Yes. Because
&gt;&gt; they will just go find some more taxi drivers to bill as major ass
&gt;&gt; kickers and send them in there. As current contracts end UFC will
&gt;&gt; just go cheap and get some different guys in there and promote those.
&gt;
&gt; I can't even bother arguing against this, simply because its so
&gt; ridiculous and goes against every basic tenet of fight promotion. I'm
&gt; sure they'll let all their champions just walk and not see a
&gt; difference.
&gt;

You can stop arguing because you keep asserting things that have no basis in
reality. I mean you are a flipping idiot that thinks that Forrest Griffin
has mainstream public name recognition. I bet less then 1% of Americans
would say they have ever heard of the guy.

&gt;&gt; And essentially anyone boxing on the feature with any of the premium
&gt;&gt; cable networks in this country make several times that...several
&gt;&gt; times per year. That before &quot;graduating&quot; to PPV. So what is your
&gt;&gt; point?
&gt;
&gt; That's not true at all.

It is absolutely true 100%

The folks on BAD or most of Showtime's
&gt; America's Fight Night series aren't making any more than the newly
&gt; signed UFC talent.

You are wrong. The guys fighting on BAD are already making hundreds of
thousands of dollars per fight. Often HBO will tell you during the card
what the guys are getting for their purses. I have never heard of a BAD
fighter making $55000 to appear.

Do you really think a fight like Garcia/Rivera or
&gt; Maythsse/Williams cost either network a million dollars to put
&gt; together?
&gt;

I doubt it. A million dollars would put together a decent network
television show. I doubt it takes that much to put together a boxing
telecast show to show.

&gt;&gt; BTW...the stars of WWE also make far more then that..so yapping
&gt; about what
&gt;&gt; Tito's PPV fee is as if that tells us something regarding the UFC
&gt;&gt; legitimacy and comparing it to boxing is fairly far fetched still.
&gt;
&gt; If they do, its solely because of merchandise. Most of the guys are
&gt; woefully underpaid.
&gt;

Wait a second....what was your point? You threw out there that Tito Ortiz
makes $300000. Well...big deal. Go to the web and see what your average
WWE superstar is getting paid. Then go look at the contracts for the stars
of BAD etc.

&gt;&gt; Obviously you don't know who John Carlo is. He has fought in MMA
&gt;&gt; already. John Carlo is the 2nd or 3rd biggest badass butt kicker on
&gt;&gt; this Newsgroup after punchy and of course..me. WOOHOO!!! I am the
&gt;&gt; flipping Heavyweight Champion of RSB 4 years running now.
&gt;
&gt; I know who John Carlo is quite well. You can see him over at
&gt; boxrec.com's forums constantly getting into arguments with Stacy
&gt; Goodson these days.

I know. He cracks me up. Even if he is wrong a lot of the time.

Guess what. I'm still not going to buy any UFC ppvs.
--
v/r Dread Pirate Rackham

&quot;You know one things that's wrong with this country? Everybody gets a
chance to have their fair say.&quot; - President Clinton 28 May 1993

&quot;There is nothing patriotic about hating your country, or pretending
that you can love your country but despise your government.&quot; -
President Clinton 5 May 1995

Report this message

#54: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-16 21:19:02 by deadandrestless

&gt; Ahh moving of goalposts.

You've brought forward the Miami Herald. Wow. One newspaper.

&gt; If I was a guessing man I'd guess the Miami Herald
&gt; approaches the readership of the Post.

Nope.

&gt;&gt;The Times covers MMA?

Didn't we already go over this awhile ago?

&gt; Speaking of selective googling. Hey if you are going to do a comparison
&gt; then be honest about ok?! You have zero shot at all of winning a debate on
&gt; the public awareness of UFC vs. Professional Wrestling. Not sure how that
&gt; is relevant either. You were the one that propped up the Washington Post as
&gt; if that means something. What you have not done is explain why that is
&gt; somehow relevant.

Because national publications are following it? Geez.

&gt;
&gt; &gt; Oh, interesting note: Roy Jones Jr.'s next fight in Idaho has sold,
&gt; &gt; supposedly, under a thousand tickets. Idaho's first MMA event occurred
&gt; &gt; this weekend and sold 6,500.
&gt;
&gt; And if the WWE goes to Boise it outsells both of them.

It doesn't, actually.

Report this message

#55: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-16 22:00:14 by deadandrestless

&gt; More then UFC. That is why boxing remains more popular then UFC will ever
&gt; be.

Based on? Right now the UFC has name brand appeal, whereas such appeal
is difficult to find in boxing outside the Golden Boy. Looking at buys
and ticket sales, its tough to surmise that boxing is a significantly
more popular sport.


&gt; DUH! Hello Captain Obvious.....I as much as said that in the very first
&gt; post. I guess I am several times smarter then your average UFC PPV
&gt; subscriber since I do not find interest in matchups where a 40 something guy
&gt; who hasn't won a damned thing in years..and has been stopped in the first
&gt; round his last two times out is rematched with a younger guy who crushed him
&gt; the first time around. Oh wow Shamrock got blasted out in the first round
&gt; again. ASTONISHING!!!! That isn't a competitive event. It is a result
&gt; absurdly predictable.
&gt;

And yet the UFC has sold plenty of PPVs when there aren't old guys on
the bill. How do you explain away the fact that Tito/Forrest did more
buys than Vargas/Mosley I or Hopkins/Tarver?

&gt; The numbers do not back it up because there are no numbers. You can assert
&gt; it all you want. The fact remains the demographic most likely to jump at
&gt; UFC are the same demographic most likely to be interested in WWE Summerslam
&gt; then they are to jump at the next PBF PPV.

The demographic is only similar in age and sex. A demographic, by the
way, boxing has failed to tap into at all in the last decade. The
influence and popularity has in turn declined.

&gt; Oh and the proof? See Japan where there is a thriving boxing industry
&gt; today...while their pro wrestling has waned with the dramatic rise of MMA in
&gt; various formats. MMA is several orders more popular there then it is here.

Boxing has a thriving industry in only one person: Koki Kameda. Outside
of Kameda, none of the actual champions in the country recieves more
interest than top K-1 talent or MMA stars. Kameda's star power has
risen only because of the lack of national stars (apart from Kid
Yamamoto) in their country. I also previously mentioned the differences
in the pro wrestling market stateside and over in Japan, something I'm
throughly convinced now that you know nothing about.

&gt; You are retarded. I think I am done with this. You really don't know what
&gt; you are talking about. How it is marketed is determined by the target
&gt; audience. MMA geeks can pretend that the target audience is boxing
&gt; fans...but the fact remains that the target audience is pro wrestling fans.
&gt; Less educated and sophisticated...more likely to bite at the name Ken
&gt; Shamrock...who even today remains the only name recognizeable performer in
&gt; that sham industry.
&gt;

You claim he is, and that's utterly ridiculous. Its nowhere near
factually correct. If he was, why can't he spark a bigger buyrate than
Royce Gracie?

&gt; UFC is not mainstream.

Is boxing at this stage? Be realistic here.

&gt; See that is a bogus comparison because UFC is just one of a confusing mass
&gt; of promotions all trying to fight over the same audience. 18-35 year old
&gt; white males of lower income and low education. The tractor pull crowd.
&gt; Nothing wrong with that mind you. Just don't go pretending it is something
&gt; that it is not.

What other major MMA promotions do the casual fan have any knowledge
of? Wanderlei Silva may be the best 205 lb fighter in the world, but he
came into the UFC to a chorus of silence.

&gt; Um...you can't read. I know not one boxing fan that buys UFC PPVs.

I know several. Your point?

&gt; And while we can
&gt; debate the honesty of boxing...the perception among the general population
&gt; is still that boxing is a legitimate sport while UFC is a side show.
&gt;

Is it?

&gt; Probably true for Tito..no possible way that is true for Forrest.

Why? Forrest was on a show that drew well over two million viewers a
week. Manny Pacquiao may be big among Filipino immigrants, but who
else?

&gt; And it is
&gt; absolutely obvious that the public at large will respond with recognition
&gt; with most of the boxers named above then would for essentially anyone in MMA
&gt; not named Ken Shamrock...who can't fight anyhow.
&gt;

When has the public in the US responded more to Manny Pacquiao? Haha,
that's foolish. He fought Barrera and Marquez on HBO in front of half
empty arenas, then went on to do passable buyrates against Morales in
their two fights, neither of which did more business than any of the
last 4 UFCs, nor were either sellouts (which the last 4 UFCs were).

&gt; See you keep tossing up buyrate claims firstly without citing...

Go ahead and look them up. mmareview.com already did an explanation of
the numbers, and every boxing PPV under the HBO banner was reported on
fightnews.com.

&gt; and secondly
&gt; as if they are telling us something. PPV numbers of random cards are a
&gt; pretty silly method of measurement of mainstream status. Besides the fact
&gt; that boxing overall is a far bigger money maker then MMA is not just in the
&gt; USA but in virtually every country in the world. You can keep comparing
&gt; apples and monkey butts but that isn't really proving anything. Do you have
&gt; an actual point somewhere in here?
&gt;

The question is not whether or not boxing is smaller than MMA at this
moment: its not. Your idea is that it will never be eclipsed, anywhere,
ever, in spite of the tremendous growth the UFC has seen and the fans
its pulling away. You're obviously trapped in a time warp where its
still 2002 and the UFC is barely hanging onto life, and that boxing
still has many of its big stars to depend on. Instead, there's a lot of
talented but totally uncharismatic boxers who are at the front of the
sport right now, and big shock, the viewership isn't growing any.

&gt; MMA gets absolutely no interest from the mainstream to wit...ESPN still
&gt; mentions major fight results. I didn't notice the Shamrock Ortiz result
&gt; mentioned anyplace but USENET...on a boxing NG. Speaking of fringe.

What websites do you visit? Hell, a basic search for the UFC actually
pulls up multiple boxing sites. Want to see?

&gt; Baloney. You won't see a mention of UFC results in any but a few odd papers
&gt; here and there and there will be not a single word on any national
&gt; broadcasts...anywhere...including ESPN or FOXSPORTS. Because UFC is still a
&gt; fringe &quot;sport.&quot;

Sure. Keep believing that. Especially Fox Sports, who has a full time
MMA writer on staff.


&gt; From the average person on the street? Absolutely.

So why was his show more successful? Why was Royce paid more? Why were
tickets for Royce/Hughes twice as expensive as Shamrock/Tito?

Face it, you don't know what you're talking about.

&gt; Royce Gracie and the
&gt; Gracie family are major league bad asses but they are unknown in this
&gt; country except within MMA circles.

And the 600,000 people who bought the show, and the 22,000 people in
the arena. Dude, please.

&gt; You are insane. Trinidad/Wright was on PPV and then &quot;free HBO&quot;

There is no such thing as Free HBO. And being on Free HBO didn't make
HBO any money. You know, in a few months, Gracie/Hughes will end up on
UFC Unleashed, and that usually does a 1.0 or above rating, which means
more than a million people watched it. I wouldn't be shocked at all to
hear that the replay of Trinidad/Wright (which everyone knew was a
dominating performance) prior to Brewster/Golota didn't do a 1.0 on
HBO.


&gt; And if you walk outside your cardboard box and
&gt; start randomly asking people if they have heard of Forrest Griffin and then
&gt; Felix Trinidad it is a guarantee that more people will respond affirmative
&gt; to Trinidad. I am out of touch? You read like you haven't been around
&gt; anyone but MMA geeks for months or something.
&gt;

They might answer that way for Trinidad. You want to take the same bet
about Winky Wright?

&gt; No it doesn't. See you keep floating up the supposed relevance of singluar
&gt; UFC ppv numbers being the arbiter ignoring the fact that for most of you
&gt; idiots buying into that sham &quot;sport&quot; that ppv is virtually the only access
&gt; you get to it. And for your money you get high quality entertainment
&gt; watching Ken Shamrock do his best Leon Spinks immitation.

Right now, apart from ESPN2, there is no regular boxing series on free
cable, and none on broadcast TV apart from Telefutura. This is to say
nothing of the explosion of PPV cards in the last few years. Boxing is
as difficult to watch as the UFC is.

&gt; Goodness you are stupid. Where do you get your information from? Shannon
&gt; Briggs has never ever headlined a major fight in his life. Other then the
&gt; most hard core boxing fans he has been irrelevant his entire career.

George Foreman? Lennox Lewis? He's a former linear champion, and people
know he hits hard. That's all they need to know about the fight. People
aren't smart. Look at this newsgroup. There are people who think
Nicolay Valuev is a deeply skilled fighter.

&gt; You are wrong. The draw on that fight is Wladimir...Briggs is just the
&gt; designated punching bag. He has zero name and never did.

If Briggs wasn't believed to have a name and some drawing power, then
HBO would have shot this fight down and Wlad would have to pick a
better opponent.

&gt; There was zero &quot;major&quot; media coverage of the Shamrock Ortiz fight
outside of
&gt; the freak show element because of the BS television show that regularly drew
&gt; less then a 1.0 share in television ratings. Nice try though.

When did Ultimate Fighter draw less than a 1.0 share? UFC draws a 1.0
showing replays of fights from 5 years ago. ESPN's Friday Night Fights
hasn't seen a 1.0 since the 90s.

&gt; ODL you are precious. Two of them fought last night on PPV. Holyfield and
&gt; Rahman are. James Toney certainly is. It is a certainty that Floyd
&gt; Mayweather Jr is. It is an absolute obvious fact that Hopkins Taylor and
&gt; Wright are. You could bet your paycheck that Barrera is. Hell I wouldn't
&gt; be surprised if Naseem Hamed has more name recognition sitting in his prison
&gt; cell right now then any UFC fighter not named Ken Shamrock.

James Toney? Haha. They had to paper MSG with free tickets so the place
wasn't empty for his bout with Ruiz. The Rahman fight was half empty
too. Apart from those, he's stuck fighting in theaters. Rahman is zero
draw and a total unknown to almost everyone. He lost King millions last
year. Holyfield has no determined drawing power; certainly no more than
Roy Jones, who's bout with Tarver last October was actually successful
(Holyfield hasn't headlined a card since the Toney fight). He might be
more of a name, but no one is paying to see him fight, and that's what
matters. Floyd Mayweather barely is. Vargas is all washed up, and while
he might be a name, his days as a serious draw are over. Mosley might
have one big fight left in him, but not much beyond that.

There's names out there....Leon Spinks is more well known than any of
the current heavyweights. Doesn't mean people will pay to watch him
fight or that boxing is healthy because he's alive and cleaning toilets
in St.Louis.

&gt; You can stop arguing because you keep asserting things that have no basis in
&gt; reality. I mean you are a flipping idiot that thinks that Forrest Griffin
&gt; has mainstream public name recognition. I bet less then 1% of Americans
&gt; would say they have ever heard of the guy.
&gt;

Yet more than that have watched him fight?

&gt; It is absolutely true 100%

Completely false. Have you ever actually looked at the purses?

&gt; You are wrong. The guys fighting on BAD are already making hundreds of
&gt; thousands of dollars per fight. Often HBO will tell you during the card
&gt; what the guys are getting for their purses. I have never heard of a BAD
&gt; fighter making $55000 to appear.

Ricardo Lopez was getting $50,000 to defend his title, and you think
the BAD guys are automatically getting $250,000 paydays? I can
guarantee you that Kirilov/Perez from Showtime for a world title didn't
have a combined purse over $150K. Royce Gracie made 3 times that in a
single night.

&gt; Do you really think a fight like Garcia/Rivera or
&gt; &gt; Maythsse/Williams cost either network a million dollars to put
&gt; &gt; together?
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt; I doubt it. A million dollars would put together a decent network
&gt; television show. I doubt it takes that much to put together a boxing
&gt; telecast show to show.
&gt;

ESPN2's telecast budget is $30K.

&gt; Wait a second....what was your point? You threw out there that Tito Ortiz
&gt; makes $300000. Well...big deal. Go to the web and see what your average
&gt; WWE superstar is getting paid. Then go look at the contracts for the stars
&gt; of BAD etc.

You have some hilariously inflated view of what people make. I've seen
both. Tito is being paid comparably to the BAD boxers and more than 90%
of the WWE.

Report this message

#56: Re: OT:Shamrock/Ortiz-Youtube already!

Posted on 2006-07-16 22:04:33 by deadandrestless

&gt; Baloney. You won't see a mention of UFC results in any but a few odd papers
&gt; here and there and there will be not a single word on any national
&gt; broadcasts...anywhere...including ESPN or FOXSPORTS. Because UFC is still a
&gt; fringe &quot;sport.&quot;

Just to let you know....according to the Boston Herald (who also have a
full time MMA beat person now), Dana White is coming on ESPN tommorrow
to make some sort of announcement. Obviously, ESPN (who's covered UFC
weighins in the past) has no interest in MMA and sees it just like you
do. &lt;g&gt;

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