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#1: Slow Play in Matchplay

Posted on 2006-06-08 01:44:30 by Me

Dragged from a previous non-related thread:

Malcolm Wadsworth wrote:
> "Demetri (Durram)"wrote:
>> If a player lets go of his club whilst playing a stroke, or even a
>> practice swing for that matter, and the club becomes lodged in some
>> branches etc. Would it be considered undue delay if he were to spend
some
>> time retrieving it? How much time would be allowed and would the
ruling be
>> any different if it were a club thrown in anger as opposed to
>> accidentally?
>>
>> We also had a situation a couple of years ago when a visiting golfer
in a
>> District Union comp was playing a stroke and his trolley started to
move
>> and ended up turned over in a (very wet) ditch which took over five
>> minutes to sort out before he could carry on.
>>
>> --
>> Durram
>
> Always a difficult one. It becomes very much a matter of judgement.
> If the club was thrown in anger, I would personally allow no time for
> retrieval beyond, say, a couple of minutes.
> Otherwise, provided the actions to retrieve the club lost
accidentally, were
> more or less continuous I would not worry up to around 5 minutes.
> If after that time it looks as if it is going to take considerably
longer
> (say another 5 minutes), then as a Rules Official, I might need to think
> whether it was now time to warn of possible undue delay.
> Other Rules Officials may be more lenient or less so.
> The point is that delay is not the issue, but undue delay.
> If it is clear from the outset that a ladder is going to be needed, for
> example, then I would expect the player to continue his round and make
> arrangements to get the club down later.
>
> The same would apply to the trolley.
> There is however a Decision 6-8a/4 - Discontinuing Play Due to
Inoperable
> Motorised Cart - which under somewhat similar circumstances does
allow the
> Committee to permit golfers to replace the cart if it would be
unreasonable
> for them to carry their clubs.
>
> HTH,
> Malcolm
>
>

No rules officials about in club matchplays and claiming a hole may be
considered being a bit 'too' competitive for most.

Here are a couple of situations where I've struggled.

Playing club matchplay at our home course, albeit the Final, taking 4
3/4 hours, with no hold ups in front. My oppo seemed to me to be
deliberately slow in everything: pacing out puts etc making Langer like
lightning! It wasn't so much that he wasn't ready to take his shot when
it was his turn, he just took sooooooo long about it. What could I have
done? Having been well and truly rattled and just about giving up on the
19th hole any claim may have seemed a bit trite.

Just recently, again in a club match play, green in front clear as we
stepped on to the tee, half-way house is open, oppo wants to go in for a
bun, I didn't (wanting to get on with losing the match as I was some
considerable number of holes behind by that time), there I am waiting
like a lemon for a few minutes and the shock on his face as I said "it's
your turn" as he was about to munch into his bun!

I'm all for a friendly, courteous and relaxed game but these two
situations at the time made me feel uncomfortable. I lost both games and
haven't mentioned it apart from just now as it always sounds dodgy
complaining about slow play in general but especially when you're on the
losing end.

"I'm claiming this hole because you are delaying play unduly, in breach
of Rule 6.7!" I just can't see it happening somehow without creating an
enemy for life.

The matter of personal judgement in the extraordinary cases in the
previous post seems to be relatively easy in comparison to a general
slowness. We do have pace of play timings on our score cards which are
very generous but there is no guidance that I can find anywhere as to
what they are there for or how we can use them.

And in the half way house situation, as the green was clear as we
initially stepped on to the tee, if we had both gone in, should we not
both be disqualified or does that come under the exception to 6.8?
Further by my not claiming the next hole was I in breach of waiving a
RoG leading to my own disqualification if I had won?

--
Grumpy Old Durram

Report this message

#2: Re: Slow Play in Matchplay

Posted on 2006-06-08 14:39:01 by Mark Myers

Demetri (Durram) wrote ...
>
> Playing club matchplay at our home course, albeit the Final, taking 4
> 3/4 hours, with no hold ups in front. My oppo seemed to me to be
> deliberately slow in everything: pacing out puts etc making Langer like
> lightning! It wasn't so much that he wasn't ready to take his shot when
> it was his turn, he just took sooooooo long about it. What could I have
> done? Having been well and truly rattled and just about giving up on the
> 19th hole any claim may have seemed a bit trite.

That's a bit long for a two ball! The problem is I think that most clubs
don't have the necessary staff/marshals available to police slow play,
so for some players it becomes ingrained. All I think you can really do
is beat the bugger!

If you want to feel really sick, read this post from last year that
Malcolm made about a particularly quick match:
<a href="http://tinyurl.com/rruuc" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/rruuc</a>

&gt; Just recently, again in a club match play, green in front clear as we
&gt; stepped on to the tee, half-way house is open, oppo wants to go in for a
&gt; bun, I didn't (wanting to get on with losing the match as I was some
&gt; considerable number of holes behind by that time), there I am waiting
&gt; like a lemon for a few minutes and the shock on his face as I said &quot;it's
&gt; your turn&quot; as he was about to munch into his bun!
&gt; [snip]
&gt; And in the half way house situation, as the green was clear as we
&gt; initially stepped on to the tee, if we had both gone in, should we not
&gt; both be disqualified or does that come under the exception to 6.8?

The half-way house, if there is one, becomes a sort of unspoken
'allowed' delay, if you ask me, but it would seem to fit into 6.8's
exception. But that doesn't cover stroke play, where I'm sure it happens
too. The point is, if everyone does it then the comp isn't really
delayed.

&gt; Further by my not claiming the next hole was I in breach of waiving a
&gt; RoG leading to my own disqualification if I had won?

Don't you actually have to make an agreement to waive a rule, in order
to suffer DQ? Just keeping quiet about something is hardly the same IMO,
especially when the alleged breach is a bit debatable anyway.

--
Mark Myers
usenet2 at mcm2002 dot f9 dot co dot uk
I have all the specs and diagrams at home

Report this message

#3: Re: Slow Play in Matchplay

Posted on 2006-06-08 17:13:42 by Me

Mark Myers wrote:
&gt; Demetri (Durram) wrote ...
&gt;&gt; Playing club matchplay at our home course, albeit the Final, taking 4
&gt;&gt; 3/4 hours, with no hold ups in front. My oppo seemed to me to be
&gt;&gt; deliberately slow in everything: pacing out puts etc making Langer like
&gt;&gt; lightning! It wasn't so much that he wasn't ready to take his shot when
&gt;&gt; it was his turn, he just took sooooooo long about it. What could I have
&gt;&gt; done? Having been well and truly rattled and just about giving up on the
&gt;&gt; 19th hole any claim may have seemed a bit trite.
&gt;
&gt; That's a bit long for a two ball! The problem is I think that most clubs
&gt; don't have the necessary staff/marshals available to police slow play,
&gt; so for some players it becomes ingrained. All I think you can really do
&gt; is beat the bugger!
&gt;
&gt; If you want to feel really sick, read this post from last year that
&gt; Malcolm made about a particularly quick match:
&gt; <a href="http://tinyurl.com/rruuc" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/rruuc</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Just recently, again in a club match play, green in front clear as we
&gt;&gt; stepped on to the tee, half-way house is open, oppo wants to go in for a
&gt;&gt; bun, I didn't (wanting to get on with losing the match as I was some
&gt;&gt; considerable number of holes behind by that time), there I am waiting
&gt;&gt; like a lemon for a few minutes and the shock on his face as I said &quot;it's
&gt;&gt; your turn&quot; as he was about to munch into his bun!
&gt;&gt; [snip]
&gt;&gt; And in the half way house situation, as the green was clear as we
&gt;&gt; initially stepped on to the tee, if we had both gone in, should we not
&gt;&gt; both be disqualified or does that come under the exception to 6.8?
&gt;
&gt; The half-way house, if there is one, becomes a sort of unspoken
&gt; 'allowed' delay, if you ask me, but it would seem to fit into 6.8's
&gt; exception. But that doesn't cover stroke play, where I'm sure it happens
&gt; too. The point is, if everyone does it then the comp isn't really
&gt; delayed.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Further by my not claiming the next hole was I in breach of waiving a
&gt;&gt; RoG leading to my own disqualification if I had won?
&gt;
&gt; Don't you actually have to make an agreement to waive a rule, in order
&gt; to suffer DQ? Just keeping quiet about something is hardly the same IMO,
&gt; especially when the alleged breach is a bit debatable anyway.
&gt;

I think you're probably right on all counts Mark. Though the last point
is grey, the wording says that you have to 'agree' but DQ-ing someone
for not claiming a hole when they are entitled to sounds absurd.

--
Demetri

Report this message

#4: Re: Slow Play in Matchplay

Posted on 2006-06-08 17:16:21 by Malcolm Wadsworth

&quot;Demetri (Durram)&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:me&#64;privacy.com" target="_blank">me&#64;privacy.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:e67ocv$n9s$1$<a href="mailto:8302bc10&#64;news.demon.co.uk..." target="_blank">8302bc10&#64;news.demon.co.uk...</a>
&gt; Dragged from a previous non-related thread:
(snip)

&gt; No rules officials about in club matchplays and claiming a hole may be
&gt; considered being a bit 'too' competitive for most.
&gt;
&gt; Here are a couple of situations where I've struggled.
&gt;
&gt; Playing club matchplay at our home course, albeit the Final, taking 4 3/4
&gt; hours, with no hold ups in front. My oppo seemed to me to be deliberately
&gt; slow in everything: pacing out puts etc making Langer like lightning! It
&gt; wasn't so much that he wasn't ready to take his shot when it was his turn,
&gt; he just took sooooooo long about it. What could I have done? Having been
&gt; well and truly rattled and just about giving up on the 19th hole any claim
&gt; may have seemed a bit trite.
&gt;
&gt; Just recently, again in a club match play, green in front clear as we
&gt; stepped on to the tee, half-way house is open, oppo wants to go in for a
&gt; bun, I didn't (wanting to get on with losing the match as I was some
&gt; considerable number of holes behind by that time), there I am waiting like
&gt; a lemon for a few minutes and the shock on his face as I said &quot;it's your
&gt; turn&quot; as he was about to munch into his bun!
&gt;
&gt; I'm all for a friendly, courteous and relaxed game but these two
&gt; situations at the time made me feel uncomfortable. I lost both games and
&gt; haven't mentioned it apart from just now as it always sounds dodgy
&gt; complaining about slow play in general but especially when you're on the
&gt; losing end.
&gt;
&gt; &quot;I'm claiming this hole because you are delaying play unduly, in breach of
&gt; Rule 6.7!&quot; I just can't see it happening somehow without creating an enemy
&gt; for life.
&gt;
&gt; The matter of personal judgement in the extraordinary cases in the
&gt; previous post seems to be relatively easy in comparison to a general
&gt; slowness. We do have pace of play timings on our score cards which are
&gt; very generous but there is no guidance that I can find anywhere as to what
&gt; they are there for or how we can use them.
&gt;
&gt; And in the half way house situation, as the green was clear as we
&gt; initially stepped on to the tee, if we had both gone in, should we not
&gt; both be disqualified or does that come under the exception to 6.8? Further
&gt; by my not claiming the next hole was I in breach of waiving a RoG leading
&gt; to my own disqualification if I had won?
&gt;
&gt; --
&gt; Grumpy Old Durram

The problem is that the culture at many clubs is that of so-called &quot;social&quot;
golf, whatever that means.
We need more golfers to apply the Rules of Golf without emotion and refuse
to argue whether it is sporting or unsporting.

Two immediate observations:
Most good clubs appoint referees for the finals of their KO matches.
There is little you can do about the pace of play unless the Committee has
set down the guidelines and how they and the penalties are to be applied.

You can try timing your opponent's stroke time, which is the time he takes
after he arrives at his ball and after allowing a few moments to select his
club, to playing his stroke, assuming the way ahead is clear for him to
play.
Then tell your opponent the time he has taken. After two or three such
timings where the time taken exceeds 50 seconds, warn him that you will make
a claim unless he reduces the time taken.
Keep timing him and if he remains outside that 50 seconds, inform him you
are claiming the hole for slow play.
Still keep timing him and informing him of his times and that your next
claim if upheld by the Committee will mean disqualification.
Do all this in a cool and professional manner without apologies.

Undue delay is rather different. Here we are not looking at such things as
the time taken over a stroke, but examples such as spending undue time
looking for tee peg, or chatting with a third party (whether in person or on
a mobile phone) or time spent looking for a ball which is no longer the ball
in play (provisional ball once original found; original once 5 minutes is
up; ball in a water hazard which will be clearly unplayable in two feet of
water!)

In the club up a tree or submerged golf trolley cases, in the absence of a
referee, note the start time; note the actions and if you feel the time
spent is becoming unacceptable, warn your opponent to abandon what he is
doing or recognise you will make a claim under 2-5 for a breach of 6-7 -
undue delay.

In match play, there usually is not a problem with stopping off at a halfway
house by agreement.
If an opponent wants to stop and you don't, or will not resume play when you
want to do so, your remedy is to claim the next hole under 6-8, the penalty
for which is disqualification.
Again, giving the opponent prior warning that if he stops or unless he
resumes, you will make a claim. That is the sporting bit!!

Remember that stopping at a halfway house to buy a drink, etc or to use
toilets is acceptable provided the player continues play as soon as
possible.

None of this comes under the umbrella of agreeing to waive a Rule since in
all cases there is a margin for judgement, whether exercised by a referee or
an opponent.


HTH,
Malcolm

Report this message

#5: Re: Slow Play in Matchplay

Posted on 2006-06-08 23:49:11 by Me

Malcolm Wadsworth wrote:
&gt; &quot;Demetri (Durram)&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:me&#64;privacy.com" target="_blank">me&#64;privacy.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:e67ocv$n9s$1$<a href="mailto:8302bc10&#64;news.demon.co.uk..." target="_blank">8302bc10&#64;news.demon.co.uk...</a>
&gt;&gt; Dragged from a previous non-related thread:
&gt; (snip)
&gt;
&gt;&gt; No rules officials about in club matchplays and claiming a hole may be
&gt;&gt; considered being a bit 'too' competitive for most.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Here are a couple of situations where I've struggled.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Playing club matchplay at our home course, albeit the Final, taking 4 3/4
&gt;&gt; hours, with no hold ups in front. My oppo seemed to me to be deliberately
&gt;&gt; slow in everything: pacing out puts etc making Langer like lightning! It
&gt;&gt; wasn't so much that he wasn't ready to take his shot when it was his turn,
&gt;&gt; he just took sooooooo long about it. What could I have done? Having been
&gt;&gt; well and truly rattled and just about giving up on the 19th hole any claim
&gt;&gt; may have seemed a bit trite.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Just recently, again in a club match play, green in front clear as we
&gt;&gt; stepped on to the tee, half-way house is open, oppo wants to go in for a
&gt;&gt; bun, I didn't (wanting to get on with losing the match as I was some
&gt;&gt; considerable number of holes behind by that time), there I am waiting like
&gt;&gt; a lemon for a few minutes and the shock on his face as I said &quot;it's your
&gt;&gt; turn&quot; as he was about to munch into his bun!
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I'm all for a friendly, courteous and relaxed game but these two
&gt;&gt; situations at the time made me feel uncomfortable. I lost both games and
&gt;&gt; haven't mentioned it apart from just now as it always sounds dodgy
&gt;&gt; complaining about slow play in general but especially when you're on the
&gt;&gt; losing end.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &quot;I'm claiming this hole because you are delaying play unduly, in breach of
&gt;&gt; Rule 6.7!&quot; I just can't see it happening somehow without creating an enemy
&gt;&gt; for life.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; The matter of personal judgement in the extraordinary cases in the
&gt;&gt; previous post seems to be relatively easy in comparison to a general
&gt;&gt; slowness. We do have pace of play timings on our score cards which are
&gt;&gt; very generous but there is no guidance that I can find anywhere as to what
&gt;&gt; they are there for or how we can use them.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; And in the half way house situation, as the green was clear as we
&gt;&gt; initially stepped on to the tee, if we had both gone in, should we not
&gt;&gt; both be disqualified or does that come under the exception to 6.8? Further
&gt;&gt; by my not claiming the next hole was I in breach of waiving a RoG leading
&gt;&gt; to my own disqualification if I had won?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; --
&gt;&gt; Grumpy Old Durram
&gt;
&gt; The problem is that the culture at many clubs is that of so-called &quot;social&quot;
&gt; golf, whatever that means.
&gt; We need more golfers to apply the Rules of Golf without emotion and refuse
&gt; to argue whether it is sporting or unsporting.
&gt;
&gt; Two immediate observations:
&gt; Most good clubs appoint referees for the finals of their KO matches.
&gt; There is little you can do about the pace of play unless the Committee has
&gt; set down the guidelines and how they and the penalties are to be applied.
&gt;
&gt; You can try timing your opponent's stroke time, which is the time he takes
&gt; after he arrives at his ball and after allowing a few moments to select his
&gt; club, to playing his stroke, assuming the way ahead is clear for him to
&gt; play.
&gt; Then tell your opponent the time he has taken. After two or three such
&gt; timings where the time taken exceeds 50 seconds, warn him that you will make
&gt; a claim unless he reduces the time taken.
&gt; Keep timing him and if he remains outside that 50 seconds, inform him you
&gt; are claiming the hole for slow play.
&gt; Still keep timing him and informing him of his times and that your next
&gt; claim if upheld by the Committee will mean disqualification.
&gt; Do all this in a cool and professional manner without apologies.
&gt;
&gt; Undue delay is rather different. Here we are not looking at such things as
&gt; the time taken over a stroke, but examples such as spending undue time
&gt; looking for tee peg, or chatting with a third party (whether in person or on
&gt; a mobile phone) or time spent looking for a ball which is no longer the ball
&gt; in play (provisional ball once original found; original once 5 minutes is
&gt; up; ball in a water hazard which will be clearly unplayable in two feet of
&gt; water!)
&gt;
&gt; In the club up a tree or submerged golf trolley cases, in the absence of a
&gt; referee, note the start time; note the actions and if you feel the time
&gt; spent is becoming unacceptable, warn your opponent to abandon what he is
&gt; doing or recognise you will make a claim under 2-5 for a breach of 6-7 -
&gt; undue delay.
&gt;
&gt; In match play, there usually is not a problem with stopping off at a halfway
&gt; house by agreement.
&gt; If an opponent wants to stop and you don't, or will not resume play when you
&gt; want to do so, your remedy is to claim the next hole under 6-8, the penalty
&gt; for which is disqualification.
&gt; Again, giving the opponent prior warning that if he stops or unless he
&gt; resumes, you will make a claim. That is the sporting bit!!
&gt;
&gt; Remember that stopping at a halfway house to buy a drink, etc or to use
&gt; toilets is acceptable provided the player continues play as soon as
&gt; possible.
&gt;
&gt; None of this comes under the umbrella of agreeing to waive a Rule since in
&gt; all cases there is a margin for judgement, whether exercised by a referee or
&gt; an opponent.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; HTH,
&gt; Malcolm
&gt;


Good stuff Malcolm, thanks for that.
--
Durram

Report this message

#6: Re: Slow Play in Matchplay

Posted on 2006-06-10 01:20:19 by david s-a

Demetri (Durram) wrote:

&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Don't you actually have to make an agreement to waive a rule, in order
&gt;&gt; to suffer DQ? Just keeping quiet about something is hardly the same
&gt;&gt; IMO, especially when the alleged breach is a bit debatable anyway.
&gt;&gt;


In Matchplay a player can ignore a breach by his opponent, provided
there is no 'agreement'to do so.

cheers
david

Report this message

#7: Re: Slow Play in Matchplay

Posted on 2006-06-11 07:26:13 by David Amos

&quot;Malcolm Wadsworth&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mTHEwadsworth&#64;blueCACKLEyonder.co.uk" target="_blank">mTHEwadsworth&#64;blueCACKLEyonder.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:9bXhg.82847$<a href="mailto:wl.6259&#64;text.news.blueyonder.co.uk..." target="_blank">wl.6259&#64;text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...</a>
&gt;
&gt; You can try timing your opponent's stroke time, which is the time he takes
&gt; after he arrives at his ball and after allowing a few moments to select
&gt; his club, to playing his stroke, assuming the way ahead is clear for him
&gt; to play.
&gt; Then tell your opponent the time he has taken. After two or three such
&gt; timings where the time taken exceeds 50 seconds, warn him that you will
&gt; make a claim unless he reduces the time taken.
&gt; Keep timing him and if he remains outside that 50 seconds, inform him you
&gt; are claiming the hole for slow play.
&gt; Still keep timing him and informing him of his times and that your next
&gt; claim if upheld by the Committee will mean disqualification.
&gt; Do all this in a cool and professional manner without apologies.
&gt;

would your trip to A&amp;E to have the driver surgially removed be undue delay?

there is a woolly feel to a rule that allows 'a few moments' to select a
club, but no more than 50 seconds to use it.
is there a limit on how slowly I can walk between shots? the 50 seconds only
starts 'a few moments' after I have arrived at my ball.

Report this message

#8: Re: Undue Delay

Posted on 2006-06-11 11:50:18 by Malcolm Wadsworth

&quot;David Amos&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:david.amos57&#64;ntlworld.com" target="_blank">david.amos57&#64;ntlworld.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:VPNig.27356$<a href="mailto:rC1.9351&#64;newsfe4-gui.ntli.net..." target="_blank">rC1.9351&#64;newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Malcolm Wadsworth&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mTHEwadsworth&#64;blueCACKLEyonder.co.uk" target="_blank">mTHEwadsworth&#64;blueCACKLEyonder.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote in
&gt; message news:9bXhg.82847$<a href="mailto:wl.6259&#64;text.news.blueyonder.co.uk..." target="_blank">wl.6259&#64;text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; You can try timing your opponent's stroke time, which is the time he
&gt;&gt; takes after he arrives at his ball and after allowing a few moments to
&gt;&gt; select his club, to playing his stroke, assuming the way ahead is clear
&gt;&gt; for him to play.
&gt;&gt; Then tell your opponent the time he has taken. After two or three such
&gt;&gt; timings where the time taken exceeds 50 seconds, warn him that you will
&gt;&gt; make a claim unless he reduces the time taken.
&gt;&gt; Keep timing him and if he remains outside that 50 seconds, inform him you
&gt;&gt; are claiming the hole for slow play.
&gt;&gt; Still keep timing him and informing him of his times and that your next
&gt;&gt; claim if upheld by the Committee will mean disqualification.
&gt;&gt; Do all this in a cool and professional manner without apologies.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt; would your trip to A&amp;E to have the driver surgially removed be undue
&gt; delay?
&gt;
&gt; there is a woolly feel to a rule that allows 'a few moments' to select a
&gt; club, but no more than 50 seconds to use it.
&gt; is there a limit on how slowly I can walk between shots? the 50 seconds
&gt; only starts 'a few moments' after I have arrived at my ball.
&gt;

David,

Please note that (a) the player should not impose the penalty, only the
Committee should do so since it calls for judgement and
(b) it is important to give warnings so that the player is aware of the
perceived problem and can take action to avoid possible penalty.
Incidentally, the opponent who installed the driver would be disqualified
under Rule 33-7 (and would therefore have lost the match) *before* I might
be accused of any undue delay. :-)

As I pointed out elsewhere, we have to distinguish between slow play and
undue delay.
To deal with slow play there has to be guidelines set down by the Committee
in charge of the competition.
This is not a Local Rule issue since the pace of play will be affected by
the nature of the competition: number of competitors in groups; intervals
between tee off times; whether Medal play or Stableford, etc

What I was speaking of is undue delay and there is some opportunity for a
competitor or opponent to challenge the time delay between a player being in
a position to play his stroke and actually playing it.

Walking speed is rather difficult to monitor: each time you would need to
know the distance to be measured against time.
Who is to say whether a walking speed of 3mph is slow for a fit 25 year old
or 3mph is fast for a septuagenarian. However, if you did manage to measure
a player's speed of walking as being less than 2mph you might have a case.

The time taken to play a stroke is more measurable and we have guidance on
that from the Ruling Bodies.
If you are going to time a stroke there has to be a starting point (this
will normally be the moment that the player takes a club from his bag) and a
finishing point (when the ball is struck).
In most cases, a player will have assessed his next stroke before he
actually arrives at his ball but will not have seen the lie. The timing of
a stroke (under the guidelines) does not include the time it takes for a
player to see the lie of his ball and select the appropriate club.
Similarly, if a player's ball is in an unplayable position, it does not
include the time he spends selecting which option to drop under.
A player has less of an argument against a measured stroke time.
There will however, be occasions when the player spends far too must time
assessing his shot before selecting his club. In such cases, in doing a
timing one would need to judge when it would have been reasonable for the
player to have completed his assessment.
If anything, one should be on the generous side.

Making some judgement of time is not unusual. Look at Rule 16-2. Here the
player is allowed 10 seconds from arrival at the hole, but if he delays his
arrival at the hole, one would have started the clock when he *should* have
arrived.

Only on Friday, I was officiating at a county championship.
A player, notorious for being slow, was on the second hole. After he took
his second stroke to the green and started walking, his caddy greeted me in
passing and I had made sure I was close enough to him to be able to show him
my stopwatch.
I made the point that his player had just spent 79 seconds playing his
stroke: the first 40 of which was spent in discussion between them before a
club was selected.
I explained that his player was not being penalised and he was not on the
clock, I just wanted him to be aware that I wanted to see all strokes played
within 40 seconds and if the player wanted to avoid the pressure of being on
the clock, he had better take heed of my warning.
I am pleased to say that player never got into a position where he had to be
on the clock throughout the two rounds.
I felt my early intervention had helped both he and my team of Rules
officials.

Last night, a member of group in a Stableford competition at my own club,
moaned to me that one of their group had been so slow they had had to let
other groups through and had had a 5 1/2 round. The slow player had taken
as much as a minute and a half over a number of strokes and the complainant
moaned that they would never play with that person again.

My case rests.

HTH,
Malcolm

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#9: Re: Undue Delay

Posted on 2006-06-12 13:29:14 by Andereida

Malcolm Wadsworth wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;snip
&gt;
&gt; Last night, a member of group in a Stableford competition at my own club,
&gt; moaned to me that one of their group had been so slow they had had to let
&gt; other groups through and had had a 5 1/2 round. The slow player had taken
&gt; as much as a minute and a half over a number of strokes and the complainant
&gt; moaned that they would never play with that person again.
&gt;
&gt; My case rests.
&gt;
&gt; HTH,
&gt; Malcolm
&gt;

Like your interesting dissertation very much, Malcolm. Can I add another
source of what I consider to be 'undue delay' - which is beginning to be
seen more frequently.

Stableford competition, group ahead have already lost ground, one of
that group loses his drive in the gorse bushes. After much searching he
gives up and, with his friends already at the green, throws a ball down
onto the fairway, plays a shot into the green-side bunker, splashes out
and takes three putts. All meaningless because he has already taken a
'blob'. And the following group are standing, seething and waiting to play.

I think Decision 7-2/1.7 has a lot to answer for.

Kenneth

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#10: Re: Undue Delay

Posted on 2006-06-12 20:45:22 by Malcolm Wadsworth

&quot;Andereida&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:kbHaguenau&#64;btopenworld.com" target="_blank">kbHaguenau&#64;btopenworld.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:vYidnWMt9pWSzRDZRVny2A&#64;bt.com..." target="_blank">vYidnWMt9pWSzRDZRVny2A&#64;bt.com...</a>
&gt; Malcolm Wadsworth wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;snip
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Last night, a member of group in a Stableford competition at my own club,
&gt;&gt; moaned to me that one of their group had been so slow they had had to let
&gt;&gt; other groups through and had had a 5 1/2 round. The slow player had
&gt;&gt; taken as much as a minute and a half over a number of strokes and the
&gt;&gt; complainant moaned that they would never play with that person again.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; My case rests.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; HTH,
&gt;&gt; Malcolm
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Like your interesting dissertation very much, Malcolm. Can I add another
&gt; source of what I consider to be 'undue delay' - which is beginning to be
&gt; seen more frequently.
&gt;
&gt; Stableford competition, group ahead have already lost ground, one of that
&gt; group loses his drive in the gorse bushes. After much searching he gives
&gt; up and, with his friends already at the green, throws a ball down onto the
&gt; fairway, plays a shot into the green-side bunker, splashes out and takes
&gt; three putts. All meaningless because he has already taken a 'blob'. And
&gt; the following group are standing, seething and waiting to play.
&gt;
&gt; I think Decision 7-2/1.7 has a lot to answer for.
&gt;
&gt; Kenneth

I Agree

MAlcolm

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#11: Re: Undue Delay

Posted on 2006-06-12 21:49:58 by PL

Andereida wrote:
&gt; Malcolm Wadsworth wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; snip
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Last night, a member of group in a Stableford competition at my own
&gt;&gt; club, moaned to me that one of their group had been so slow they had
&gt;&gt; had to let other groups through and had had a 5 1/2 round. The slow
&gt;&gt; player had taken as much as a minute and a half over a number of
&gt;&gt; strokes and the complainant moaned that they would never play with
&gt;&gt; that person again.
&gt;&gt;


In a four-ball better-ball competition yesterday afternoon, the second
group away lost over 3 holes on the lead group. This resulted in
'stacking-up' on the 17th hole (which is a par 3) and a four hour round.
We normally get around in 3 1/2 hours.

The Club Captain played in the 'rogue' group. I was in the group behind.

I'd just like to know what you might think of these issues:

a) as far as I could tell, the second group made no effort to increase
their pace of play. On our course there is good vision all round, so
you'll always know where the groups in front and behind are.

b) on at least two occasions, the second group took 'time-out' on the
course, with a sweet-stop, you know the time when someone hands out the
boiled sweets in a tin.

c) it started to rain on their 16th hole (our 15th) and play came to a
complete standstill as the 4 players donned their weather-proof gear
(they had driven and were on the fairway or in the light rough). Once
they were dressed they started to ball search.

d) by the time they reached the 17th tee, the rain eased (it was only a
light shower) and there followed further delay as the players now took
off the rain clothes they put on 15 minutes earlier.

Any comments? In particular, does anyone have any experience of
penalties being imposed for slow play in club competition?

PL

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#12: Re: Undue Delay

Posted on 2006-06-12 23:35:01 by Malcolm Wadsworth

Don't you think its about time you stopped posting anonymously?
We know you belong Tehidy Park Golf Club but thats about all.

Please introduce yourself: use a better tag and post your comments using
your proper name to end your message.
I feel more comfortable responding to people with names.

There are several other new posters here who might do well to do likewise.

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#13: Re: Undue Delay

Posted on 2006-06-13 00:41:13 by PL

Malcolm Wadsworth wrote:
&gt; Don't you think its about time you stopped posting anonymously?
&gt; We know you belong Tehidy Park Golf Club but thats about all.
&gt;
&gt; Please introduce yourself: use a better tag and post your comments using
&gt; your proper name to end your message.
&gt; I feel more comfortable responding to people with names.
&gt;
&gt; There are several other new posters here who might do well to do likewise.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;

Malcolm, this is an extract from 'the WWW version of the book Netiquette
by Virginia Shea, published by Albion Books'.

# Be careful about posting late at night or any time you're tired, sick,
or having a terrible day. Your judgment may not be at its best. When in
doubt, hold off until you feel better.

PL

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#14: Re: Undue Delay

Posted on 2006-06-13 01:34:06 by I like toys and cake

PL wrote:
&gt; Malcolm Wadsworth wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Don't you think its about time you stopped posting anonymously?
&gt;&gt; We know you belong Tehidy Park Golf Club but thats about all.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Please introduce yourself: use a better tag and post your comments
&gt;&gt; using your proper name to end your message.
&gt;&gt; I feel more comfortable responding to people with names.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; There are several other new posters here who might do well to do
&gt;&gt; likewise.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Malcolm, this is an extract from 'the WWW version of the book Netiquette
&gt; by Virginia Shea, published by Albion Books'.
&gt;
&gt; # Be careful about posting late at night or any time you're tired, sick,
&gt; or having a terrible day. Your judgment may not be at its best. When in
&gt; doubt, hold off until you feel better.
&gt;
&gt; PL

Yeah, right! There are a lot of very dodgy characters in here - bandits
the lot of them.

Let us know when it's early, you're wide awake feeling healthy and
having a good day and we can chat some more :-)

--
Durram (<a href="mailto:me&#64;privacy.net" target="_blank">me&#64;privacy.net</a>) ;-)

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