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#1: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-14 21:08:07 by Benny

Juventus - relegation to Serie B, 30 point penalty
Lazio - relegation to Serie B, 7 point penalty
Fiorentina - relegation to Serie B, 12 point penalty
Milan - 15 point penalty

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#2: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-14 21:15:37 by mutaforme da Google

Benny ha scritto:

What a wonderful day...

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#3: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-14 21:24:59 by unknown

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

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#4: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-14 21:28:49 by Benny

&gt; Subject : Calciopoli Verdicts
&gt; From : anders t &lt;<a href="mailto:anthu_001&#64;No" target="_blank">anthu_001&#64;No</a>â¬SPaMâ¬_hotmail.com&gt;

&gt;Quoting Benny in rec.sport.soccer:
&gt;&gt;Juventus - relegation to Serie B, 30 point penalty
&gt;&gt;Lazio - relegation to Serie B, 7 point penalty
&gt;&gt;Fiorentina - relegation to Serie B, 12 point penalty
&gt;&gt;Milan - 15 point penalty
&gt;
&gt;Can there be a case made that UEFA has Italy losing the Europa cup
&gt;coeffients gained by the teams in question, too?

That's upto UEFA.

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#5: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-14 21:44:05 by Erdal Paksoy

&quot;Benny&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Benny&#64;soccer-europe.com" target="_blank">Benny&#64;soccer-europe.com</a>&gt; wrote in message news:02lWx+AJz+<a href="mailto:tEFwGq&#64;mail.soccer-europe.com..." target="_blank">tEFwGq&#64;mail.soccer-europe.com...</a>
&gt; Juventus - relegation to Serie B, 30 point penalty
&gt; Lazio - relegation to Serie B, 7 point penalty
&gt; Fiorentina - relegation to Serie B, 12 point penalty
&gt; Milan - 15 point penalty
&gt;

I assume all teams are banned from Europe for this year. Is that true?

What happens to the Serie A titles from the last couple of years?

Erdal

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#6: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-14 21:47:46 by JK

Benny wrote:

&gt; Juventus - relegation to Serie B, 30 point penalty

Forfeit last two titles:

&gt; Lazio - relegation to Serie B, 7 point penalty
&gt; Fiorentina - relegation to Serie B, 12 point penalty

&gt; Milan - 15 point penalty

And apparently docked 44 points from last year's total.


So who is awarded the last two titles? Or are they considered vacant?

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#7: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-14 21:51:05 by JK

Benny wrote:

&gt; Juventus - relegation to Serie B, 30 point penalty
&gt; Lazio - relegation to Serie B, 7 point penalty
&gt; Fiorentina - relegation to Serie B, 12 point penalty
&gt; Milan - 15 point penalty

I don't see why Milan can't challenge for a title next season. They
finished 12 points ahead of third place Inter last season and Juve is
out of the picture. It won't be easy, but hardly impossible.

(Plus no CL distraction, right?)



--
JK
<a href="http://my-morning-song.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://my-morning-song.blogspot.com/</a>

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#8: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-14 21:51:07 by Victoria Barrett

On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 19:47:46 GMT, JK &lt;<a href="mailto:jknapp&#64;oacpc.com" target="_blank">jknapp&#64;oacpc.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;So who is awarded the last two titles? Or are they considered vacant?

I would think so.

Something similar happened to Torino, I heard, in 1927.

Their title was stripped for match-fixing, and it was vacated.

--
<a href="http://futuremd.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://futuremd.blogspot.com/</a>

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#9: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-14 21:52:54 by Benny

&gt; Subject : Calciopoli Verdicts
&gt; From : JK &lt;<a href="mailto:jknapp&#64;oacpc.com" target="_blank">jknapp&#64;oacpc.com</a>&gt;
&gt;
&gt;And apparently docked 44 points from last year's total.

Yes, that's why they're not in the Champions League.

&gt;So who is awarded the last two titles?

In theory Milan in 2004-2005 and Inter in 2005-2006 (because of Milan's
44 point penalty).

&gt; Or are they considered vacant?

I would guess they're vacant.

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#10: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-14 21:53:52 by Victoria Barrett

On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 19:51:05 GMT, JK &lt;<a href="mailto:jknapp&#64;oacpc.com" target="_blank">jknapp&#64;oacpc.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;I don't see why Milan can't challenge for a title next season. They
&gt;finished 12 points ahead of third place Inter last season and Juve is
&gt;out of the picture. It won't be easy, but hardly impossible.
&gt;
&gt;(Plus no CL distraction, right?)

That's my thinking too. It depends on who stays, however. Kaká is sure
to leave, they say.

BTW, Felipe Scolari stays on with Portugal for 2 years!! What a
newsday.

(I'm sure a Portuguese person will post the news separately)

--
<a href="http://futuremd.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://futuremd.blogspot.com/</a>

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#11: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-14 21:54:55 by Benny

&gt; Subject : Calciopoli Verdicts
&gt; From : JK &lt;<a href="mailto:jknapp&#64;oacpc.com" target="_blank">jknapp&#64;oacpc.com</a>&gt;

&gt;I don't see why Milan can't challenge for a title next season. They
&gt;finished 12 points ahead of third place Inter last season and Juve is
&gt;out of the picture. It won't be easy, but hardly impossible.
&gt;
&gt;(Plus no CL distraction, right?)

Yep. The only problem is the physiological effect of starting on
-15 points but of course it could make the players more determined.

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#12: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-14 21:56:24 by Benny

&gt; Subject : Calciopoli Verdicts
&gt; From : Benny &lt;<a href="mailto:Benny&#64;soccer-europe.com" target="_blank">Benny&#64;soccer-europe.com</a>&gt;

&gt;Yep. The only problem is the physiological effect of starting on
&gt;-15 points but of course it could make the players more determined.

That should real psychological not physiological.

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#13: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-14 22:12:12 by ackthpt

Benny wrote:
&gt; Juventus - relegation to Serie B, 30 point penalty
&gt; Lazio - relegation to Serie B, 7 point penalty
&gt; Fiorentina - relegation to Serie B, 12 point penalty
&gt; Milan - 15 point penalty
&gt;
&gt; <a href="http://soccer-europe.com" target="_blank">http://soccer-europe.com</a>
&gt; Rss feed : <a href="http://soccer-europe.com/RSS/News.xml" target="_blank">http://soccer-europe.com/RSS/News.xml</a>

Quite painful. Also Juve is stripped of their last two titles and all
are out of Champions League and UEFA cup.

They have until 25th to appeal.

Just keep polishing that WC trophy for a couple years and try not to
get any tear stains on it.


&lt;<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/5164194.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/5164194.stm</a>&gt;

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#14: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-14 22:20:49 by Benny

The bottom three Serie A clubs i.e. Messina, Lecce and Treviso will
retain their Serie A status.

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#15: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-14 22:26:49 by ackthpt

Benny wrote:
&gt; The bottom three Serie A clubs i.e. Messina, Lecce and Treviso will
&gt; retain their Serie A status.
&gt;
&gt; <a href="http://soccer-europe.com" target="_blank">http://soccer-europe.com</a>
&gt; Rss feed : <a href="http://soccer-europe.com/RSS/News.xml" target="_blank">http://soccer-europe.com/RSS/News.xml</a>

A gift! They should all write thank you letters!

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#16: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-14 22:36:34 by JK

Richard Adams wrote:
&gt; Benny wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;The bottom three Serie A clubs i.e. Messina, Lecce and Treviso will
&gt;&gt;retain their Serie A status.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; <a href="http://soccer-europe.com" target="_blank">http://soccer-europe.com</a>
&gt;&gt; Rss feed : <a href="http://soccer-europe.com/RSS/News.xml" target="_blank">http://soccer-europe.com/RSS/News.xml</a>
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; A gift! They should all write thank you letters!

Seriously!


--
JK
<a href="http://my-morning-song.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://my-morning-song.blogspot.com/</a>

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#17: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-14 22:49:54 by ackthpt

JK wrote:
&gt; Richard Adams wrote:
&gt; &gt; Benny wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;The bottom three Serie A clubs i.e. Messina, Lecce and Treviso will
&gt; &gt;&gt;retain their Serie A status.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href="http://soccer-europe.com" target="_blank">http://soccer-europe.com</a>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Rss feed : <a href="http://soccer-europe.com/RSS/News.xml" target="_blank">http://soccer-europe.com/RSS/News.xml</a>
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; A gift! They should all write thank you letters!
&gt;
&gt; Seriously!
&gt;


Dear Cheaters,

Thank you for getting caught and saving us the humiliation of going
where you are going.

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#18: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-14 22:54:02 by MH

Benny wrote:
&gt; The bottom three Serie A clubs i.e. Messina, Lecce and Treviso will
&gt; retain their Serie A status.

Too bad. They could have used this as an ideal opportunity to move back
to an 18 team league, which , I think, you and most Serie A fans prefer.
(Don't think it makes a huge difference myself, but let's not get
started on that).

&gt;
&gt; <a href="http://soccer-europe.com" target="_blank">http://soccer-europe.com</a>
&gt; Rss feed : <a href="http://soccer-europe.com/RSS/News.xml" target="_blank">http://soccer-europe.com/RSS/News.xml</a>

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#19: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-14 23:01:45 by Rolleston

Benny &lt;<a href="mailto:Benny&#64;soccer-europe.com" target="_blank">Benny&#64;soccer-europe.com</a>&gt; writes:
&gt;&gt; Subject : Calciopoli Verdicts
&gt;&gt; From : JK &lt;<a href="mailto:jknapp&#64;oacpc.com" target="_blank">jknapp&#64;oacpc.com</a>&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;And apparently docked 44 points from last year's total.
&gt;
&gt; Yes, that's why they're not in the Champions League.

This is bad for the Champions' League. I do want to see corruption punished,
but I don't want the CL weakened like this.

R.

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#20: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-14 23:06:10 by cmh

Sez Richard Adams &lt;<a href="mailto:ackthpt&#64;concentric.net" target="_blank">ackthpt&#64;concentric.net</a>&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; A gift! They should all write thank you letters!

And address it to whom?

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#21: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-14 23:12:34 by ackthpt

MH wrote:
&gt; Benny wrote:
&gt; &gt; The bottom three Serie A clubs i.e. Messina, Lecce and Treviso will
&gt; &gt; retain their Serie A status.
&gt;
&gt; Too bad. They could have used this as an ideal opportunity to move back
&gt; to an 18 team league, which , I think, you and most Serie A fans prefer.
&gt; (Don't think it makes a huge difference myself, but let's not get
&gt; started on that).
&gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; <a href="http://soccer-europe.com" target="_blank">http://soccer-europe.com</a>
&gt; &gt; Rss feed : <a href="http://soccer-europe.com/RSS/News.xml" target="_blank">http://soccer-europe.com/RSS/News.xml</a>

Considering they need to have their schedule ready for the new season,
keeping up 3 clubs means those clubs could simply take their place in
the schedule.

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#22: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-14 23:13:19 by Broadway Blue

Rolleston wrote:
&gt; Benny &lt;<a href="mailto:Benny&#64;soccer-europe.com" target="_blank">Benny&#64;soccer-europe.com</a>&gt; writes:
&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject : Calciopoli Verdicts
&gt;&gt;&gt; From : JK &lt;<a href="mailto:jknapp&#64;oacpc.com" target="_blank">jknapp&#64;oacpc.com</a>&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; And apparently docked 44 points from last year's total.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Yes, that's why they're not in the Champions League.
&gt;
&gt; This is bad for the Champions' League. I do want to see corruption
&gt; punished, but I don't want the CL weakened like this.

Weakens? In what way? A team that cheats to achieve success won't be
in the Champions League! Sounds like good news to me.

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#23: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-15 00:00:46 by James Farrar

On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 19:08:07 GMT, Benny &lt;<a href="mailto:Benny&#64;soccer-europe.com" target="_blank">Benny&#64;soccer-europe.com</a>&gt;
wrote:

&gt;Juventus - relegation to Serie B, 30 point penalty

Worse than the previously suggested relegation to C1 with a 6 point
penalty. This throws them right into a relegation battle that it's
going to be very difficult to escape from, looking at the 04/05 Serie
B table.

&gt;Lazio - relegation to Serie B, 7 point penalty

Probable promotion, likely automatic.

&gt;Fiorentina - relegation to Serie B, 12 point penalty

Might struggle to make the playoffs.

&gt;Milan - 15 point penalty

I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the judge and say Milan are
reprieved because of the problems of working out who to add to Serie A
for 06/07 if four clubs are relegated.

A cynic would blame the influence of Berlusconi.

This won't keep Milan out of European competition in 07/08, and
probably not out of the Champions League. The scudetto may prove
elusive.

All predictions assume the clubs keeping most of their top players,
and the league promotion/relegation structure not changing...

--
James Farrar
. @gmail.com

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#24: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-15 00:13:20 by Coppernob

On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 14:44:05 -0500, &quot;Erdal Paksoy&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:paksoy&#64;ti.com" target="_blank">paksoy&#64;ti.com</a>&gt;
wrote:


&gt;
&gt;What happens to the Serie A titles from the last couple of years?
This year's title is not assigned
2004/05 has been stripped from Juventus and proably won't be
re-assigned
&gt;
&gt;Erdal
&gt;
&gt;

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#25: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-15 00:20:58 by Coppernob

On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 23:00:46 +0100, James Farrar
&lt;<a href="mailto:james.s.farrar&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">james.s.farrar&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:


&gt;
&gt;I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the judge and say Milan are
&gt;reprieved because of the problems of working out who to add to Serie A
&gt;for 06/07 if four clubs are relegated.

No, Milan were &quot;reprieved&quot; (if you call a 59 point penalization a
reprieve...) because the prosecuter could not find any direct club
involvment in attempts to have linesmen assigned.

Juve, Fiornetina and Lazio had company presidents,and officials caught
on the phone asking for referees to be assigned and did so repeatedly,
and where thus accused of direct and continued involvement, whereas
Milan had a low level manager talk to the linesmen official on one
occasion for one game (which, ironically Milan had a goal dissalowed
for offsides...) , and prosecuter felt there was not sufficient
evidence to accuse them of direct involvement. Only indirect.

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#26: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-15 00:23:07 by unknown

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#27: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-15 01:50:58 by MMcC

On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 23:23:07 +0100, Red Moon &lt;<a href="mailto:redmoon&#64;redmoon.redmoon" target="_blank">redmoon&#64;redmoon.redmoon</a>&gt;
wrote:

&gt;&quot;Erdal Paksoy&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:paksoy&#64;ti.com" target="_blank">paksoy&#64;ti.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&quot;Benny&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Benny&#64;soccer-europe.com" target="_blank">Benny&#64;soccer-europe.com</a>&gt; wrote in message news:02lWx+AJz+<a href="mailto:tEFwGq&#64;mail.soccer-europe.com..." target="_blank">tEFwGq&#64;mail.soccer-europe.com...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Juventus - relegation to Serie B, 30 point penalty
&gt;&gt;&gt; Lazio - relegation to Serie B, 7 point penalty
&gt;&gt;&gt; Fiorentina - relegation to Serie B, 12 point penalty
&gt;&gt;&gt; Milan - 15 point penalty
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;I assume all teams are banned from Europe for this year. Is that true?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;What happens to the Serie A titles from the last couple of years?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Erdal
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;Maybe they will auction it on ebay to the highest bidder.

Chelsea win the EPL/Serie A double in 2006!

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#28: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-15 02:22:49 by Red Moon

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#29: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-15 08:42:12 by Goldmund

On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 14:44:05 -0500, &quot;Erdal Paksoy&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:paksoy&#64;ti.com" target="_blank">paksoy&#64;ti.com</a>&gt;
wrote:

&gt;
&gt;&quot;Benny&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Benny&#64;soccer-europe.com" target="_blank">Benny&#64;soccer-europe.com</a>&gt; wrote in message news:02lWx+AJz+<a href="mailto:tEFwGq&#64;mail.soccer-europe.com..." target="_blank">tEFwGq&#64;mail.soccer-europe.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; Juventus - relegation to Serie B, 30 point penalty
&gt;&gt; Lazio - relegation to Serie B, 7 point penalty
&gt;&gt; Fiorentina - relegation to Serie B, 12 point penalty
&gt;&gt; Milan - 15 point penalty
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;I assume all teams are banned from Europe for this year. Is that true?

Not exactly banned: Juve, Lazio and Fiorentina are moved to the last
place and relegated, Milan gets 29 points less (and 15 next year) so
in the new ranking they are out.
There is though a possibility that Milan gains Europe back if Empoli
doesn't accept UEFA because its stadium doesn't have europena
standards (they should be playing in another one, which is quite
possible, Firenze is very close)

&gt;What happens to the Serie A titles from the last couple of years?

FIGC will have to decide. Probably not assigned.

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#30: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-16 14:52:03 by Futbolmetrix

&quot;Coppernob&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:alexnorton&#64;despammed.com" target="_blank">alexnorton&#64;despammed.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:lq5gb2t6hip6rr4d26nglumb2lin7dmqv3&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">lq5gb2t6hip6rr4d26nglumb2lin7dmqv3&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; Juve, Fiornetina and Lazio had company presidents,and officials caught
&gt; on the phone asking for referees to be assigned and did so repeatedly,
&gt; and where thus accused of direct and continued involvement, whereas
&gt; Milan had a low level manager talk to the linesmen official on one
&gt; occasion for one game (which, ironically Milan had a goal dissalowed
&gt; for offsides...) , and prosecuter felt there was not sufficient
&gt; evidence to accuse them of direct involvement. Only indirect.

Unfortunately, you are 100% correct. It sucks, and it's a travesty of
justice, unless you truly believe that Galliani didn't know anything of
Meani's actions. But according to the sporting justice code, Milan couldn't
really get more than that. Plus, Milan's penalty will very likely be reduced
by the appeals court.

The only consolation is that the whole world will know that you are a bunch
of cheaters and you got away with a slap on the wrist and the chance to raid
Juve's player pool.

At least the Immaculate Virgins are immaculate.

Daniele

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#31: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-16 15:15:06 by Diabolik

&quot;Futbolmetrix&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:e9d98l$qu9$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.iucc.ac.il..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.iucc.ac.il...</a>
&gt; &quot;Coppernob&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:alexnorton&#64;despammed.com" target="_blank">alexnorton&#64;despammed.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:lq5gb2t6hip6rr4d26nglumb2lin7dmqv3&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">lq5gb2t6hip6rr4d26nglumb2lin7dmqv3&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Juve, Fiornetina and Lazio had company presidents,and officials caught
&gt; &gt; on the phone asking for referees to be assigned and did so repeatedly,
&gt; &gt; and where thus accused of direct and continued involvement, whereas
&gt; &gt; Milan had a low level manager talk to the linesmen official on one
&gt; &gt; occasion for one game (which, ironically Milan had a goal dissalowed
&gt; &gt; for offsides...) , and prosecuter felt there was not sufficient
&gt; &gt; evidence to accuse them of direct involvement. Only indirect.
&gt;
&gt; Unfortunately, you are 100% correct. It sucks, and it's a travesty of
&gt; justice, unless you truly believe that Galliani didn't know anything of
&gt; Meani's actions. But according to the sporting justice code, Milan
couldn't
&gt; really get more than that. Plus, Milan's penalty will very likely be
reduced
&gt; by the appeals court.
&gt;
&gt; The only consolation is that the whole world will know that you are a
bunch
&gt; of cheaters and you got away with a slap on the wrist and the chance to
raid
&gt; Juve's player pool.

There's a BIG difference between what Juve and Milan did.

There are 100's of calls between Moggi and refs that show corruption.

There's only ONE call between a ref and a low level Milan manager that was
presumably corrupt.

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#32: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-16 15:43:34 by Diabolik

&quot;Futbolmetrix&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:e9deg5$tn1$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.iucc.ac.il..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.iucc.ac.il...</a>
&gt; &quot;Diabolik&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:diabolik&#64;email.it" target="_blank">diabolik&#64;email.it</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:uZqug.5876$<a href="mailto:tE5.2141&#64;news-server.bigpond.net.au..." target="_blank">tE5.2141&#64;news-server.bigpond.net.au...</a>
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; There's a BIG difference between what Juve and Milan did.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; There are 100's of calls between Moggi and refs that show corruption.
&gt;
&gt; Actually, there is not one single phone call between Moggi or Giraudo and
&gt; any referee or linesman. Not one single phone call. Not a single phone
call
&gt; between Fiorentina or Lazio managers and the referees either. The only
&gt; person who called the linesmen directly and gave them instructions on how
to
&gt; raise their flag was Meani.
&gt;
&gt; Diabolik, we've been saying this on RSS for the past two months. If you've
&gt; chosen to ignore everything and wake up just now that Milan was penalized,
&gt; it's not our fault.

I have accepted it, no problem, but since you know what has been happening,
like I do, don't you think the sentences are harsh, blaming the clubs as
scapegoats, instead of the whole system, and Carraro who allowed it to
happen?

You know what the Italian justice system is like, they have the tall poppy
syndrome.

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#33: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-16 16:21:22 by Futbolmetrix

&quot;Diabolik&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:diabolik&#64;email.it" target="_blank">diabolik&#64;email.it</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:uZqug.5876$<a href="mailto:tE5.2141&#64;news-server.bigpond.net.au..." target="_blank">tE5.2141&#64;news-server.bigpond.net.au...</a>
&gt;
&gt; There's a BIG difference between what Juve and Milan did.
&gt;
&gt; There are 100's of calls between Moggi and refs that show corruption.

Actually, there is not one single phone call between Moggi or Giraudo and
any referee or linesman. Not one single phone call. Not a single phone call
between Fiorentina or Lazio managers and the referees either. The only
person who called the linesmen directly and gave them instructions on how to
raise their flag was Meani.

Diabolik, we've been saying this on RSS for the past two months. If you've
chosen to ignore everything and wake up just now that Milan was penalized,
it's not our fault.

Daniele

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#34: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-16 17:34:56 by Futbolmetrix

&quot;Diabolik&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:diabolik&#64;email.it" target="_blank">diabolik&#64;email.it</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:aorug.5890$<a href="mailto:tE5.2390&#64;news-server.bigpond.net.au..." target="_blank">tE5.2390&#64;news-server.bigpond.net.au...</a>
&gt;
&gt; I have accepted it, no problem, but since you know what has been
&gt; happening,
&gt; like I do, don't you think the sentences are harsh, blaming the clubs as
&gt; scapegoats,

I'm in Serie B with a 30 point penalty, so I should be the first one to
complain about the verdict being too harsh. Given the seriousness of the
accusations, though, the verdict is not too harsh, and I can understand
those who complain about it being too lenient.

Whether there is enough evidence to sustain the accusations is another
matter.

Whether deep down I believe the accusations to be true is a third matter.


&gt; instead of the whole system, and Carraro who allowed it to
&gt; happen?

The one positive thing about this verdict is that Franco &quot;Mr. Armchair&quot;
Carraro has been suspended for 4 and a half years.

Daniele

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#35: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-16 20:15:41 by Benny

&gt; Subject : Calciopoli Verdicts
&gt; From : Futbolmetrix &lt;<a href="mailto:futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt;

&gt;Actually, there is not one single phone call between Moggi or Giraudo and
&gt;any referee or linesman. Not one single phone call. Not a single phone call

Why would he need to talk to referees when he had the VP of the referees
commission (Pairetto) and referee designator (Paolo Bergamo) in his back
pocket, as the transcripts clearly show.

&gt;between Fiorentina or Lazio managers and the referees either. The only
&gt;person who called the linesmen directly and gave them instructions on how to
&gt;raise their flag was Meani.

Not with the referees but with the referee designators and the VP of the
FIGC.

&gt;Diabolik, we've been saying this on RSS for the past two months. If you've
&gt;chosen to ignore everything and wake up just now that Milan was penalized,
&gt;it's not our fault.

And some of us have been saying Juve, Lazio and Fiorentina were screwed
when this initially broke while you chose to dismiss the evidence.

<a href="http://soccer-europe.com" target="_blank">http://soccer-europe.com</a>
Rss feed : <a href="http://soccer-europe.com/RSS/News.xml" target="_blank">http://soccer-europe.com/RSS/News.xml</a>

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#36: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-16 21:29:36 by Benny

&gt; Subject : Calciopoli Verdicts
&gt; From : Futbolmetrix &lt;<a href="mailto:futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt;

&gt;If anybody was dismissing the evidence, and sticking his head under the
&gt;sand, that was you.

Once it emerged Galliani was involved were also screwed, this only came
to light weeks after the story broke.

<a href="http://soccer-europe.com" target="_blank">http://soccer-europe.com</a>
Rss feed : <a href="http://soccer-europe.com/RSS/News.xml" target="_blank">http://soccer-europe.com/RSS/News.xml</a>

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#37: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-16 21:43:30 by Futbolmetrix

&quot;Benny&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Benny&#64;soccer-europe.com" target="_blank">Benny&#64;soccer-europe.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:UAt+<a href="mailto:8ABnMouEFwZM&#64;mail.soccer-europe.com..." target="_blank">8ABnMouEFwZM&#64;mail.soccer-europe.com...</a>

&gt;&gt;Actually, there is not one single phone call between Moggi or Giraudo and
&gt;&gt;any referee or linesman. Not one single phone call. Not a single phone
&gt;&gt;call
&gt;
&gt; Why would he need to talk to referees when he had the VP of the referees
&gt; commission (Pairetto) and referee designator (Paolo Bergamo) in his back
&gt; pocket, as the transcripts clearly show.

I'm not saying that's not the case. But the statement made by Diabolik as to
the existence of hundreds of phone calls between Moggi and referees is
factually incorrect.

&gt;
&gt;&gt;between Fiorentina or Lazio managers and the referees either. The only
&gt;&gt;person who called the linesmen directly and gave them instructions on how
&gt;&gt;to
&gt;&gt;raise their flag was Meani.
&gt;
&gt; Not with the referees but with the referee designators and the VP of the
&gt; FIGC.
&gt;

The Fiorentina bosses had frequent conversations with Innocenzo Mazzini (VP
of the FIGC), in which they exerted pressure on him to speak with the
referee designators and to help Fiorentina.

Lazio president had frequent conversations with the Franco Carraro, head of
the FIGC, and asked him to speak with the referee designators and help
Lazio.

Meani spoke directly with the linesmen (as well as with the designator of
linesmen), and gave them specific instructions on how to raise or not raise
the flag when Milan attacked and when Milan defended.

Just so that everybody knows the facts.


&gt;&gt;Diabolik, we've been saying this on RSS for the past two months. If you've
&gt;&gt;chosen to ignore everything and wake up just now that Milan was penalized,
&gt;&gt;it's not our fault.
&gt;
&gt; And some of us have been saying Juve, Lazio and Fiorentina were screwed
&gt; when this initially broke while you chose to dismiss the evidence.

If anybody was dismissing the evidence, and sticking his head under the
sand, that was you.

I pointed out that there was no direct evidence that Juve tried to alter the
results of any specific match. It turned out that I was 100% correct, and
Juve was not found guilty of attempting to alter the result of any specific
match. It was only the &quot;plurality of Moggi's actions&quot; that led the judges to
conclude that Juve tried to alter the development of the whole championship
(without however altering the result of any specific match. Interesting,
no?).

If Juve had chosen a more aggressive defense strategy, it is not
inconceivable that they could have come out completely &quot;clean&quot;. On the other
hand, that could have also meant Serie C, and the soft defense line was
rewarded.

Daniele

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#38: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-17 18:26:31 by Coppernob

On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 14:52:03 +0200, &quot;Futbolmetrix&quot;
&lt;<a href="mailto:futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote:


&gt;
&gt;Unfortunately, you are 100% correct. It sucks, and it's a travesty of
&gt;justice, unless you truly believe that Galliani didn't know anything of
&gt;Meani's actions.

My thoughts are that Galliani knew exactly what Meani was doing, but
that Milan's medling in footbal weas more on the financial side than
the &quot;footbal&quot; side, in other words that, unlike Juventus, Fiore, Lazio
(and all the others (no club is a virgin) Galliani was more interested
in playing political and financial puppetmaster, whereas Moggi and
Giraudo liked to play footbal market masters.

Juve got what they deserved for years of coercion, arm twisting, GEA ,
Siena, Catania conivance. A couple of years in Juve will do you good -
it did us...

What makes me laugh is Inter parading verginal status when they they
admit having fabbricated passports for their own players, when they
are caught going to dinner with the same Bergamo that has Moggi in hot
water.

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#39: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-17 18:26:52 by Ron

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:lzd5c799za.fsf&#64;null.nullsome.net" target="_blank">lzd5c799za.fsf&#64;null.nullsome.net</a>&gt;,
Rolleston &lt;<a href="mailto:Nemo&#64;nullsome.net" target="_blank">Nemo&#64;nullsome.net</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; &gt; Yes, that's why they're not in the Champions League.
&gt;
&gt; This is bad for the Champions' League. I do want to see corruption punished,
&gt; but I don't want the CL weakened like this.

The champions league is so lucrative that kicking them out of the C.L.
is a major financial penalty.

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#40: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-17 21:51:45 by mutaforme da Google

Coppernob ha scritto:

&gt;
&gt; What makes me laugh is Inter parading verginal status when they they
&gt; admit having fabbricated passports for their own players, when they
&gt; are caught going to dinner with the same Bergamo that has Moggi in hot
&gt; water.

What about Dida,Bartelt,Veron passports? Recoba has been condamned and
he has pais his debt with justice.

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#41: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-17 21:51:53 by mutaforme da Google

Coppernob ha scritto:

&gt;
&gt; What makes me laugh is Inter parading verginal status when they they
&gt; admit having fabbricated passports for their own players, when they
&gt; are caught going to dinner with the same Bergamo that has Moggi in hot
&gt; water.

What about Dida,Bartelt,Veron passports? Recoba has been condamned and
he has paid his debt with justice.

Report this message

#42: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-17 21:57:18 by Coppernob

On 17 Jul 2006 12:51:53 -0700, &quot;mutaforme da Google&quot;
&lt;<a href="mailto:05&#64;montegiberto.com" target="_blank">05&#64;montegiberto.com</a>&gt; wrote:


&gt;
&gt;What about Dida,Bartelt,Veron passports? Recoba has been condamned and
&gt;he has paid his debt with justice.

Oriali, an Inter director was the one to pay for and get a false
passport for Oriali. Dida, instead, a) had never played in italy (he
was on loan abroad) b) his false passport was manufactured by others,
and when Milan saw it, Galliani went to the police to denounce it.

Report this message

#43: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-17 23:07:06 by Goldmund

On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 09:26:31 -0700, Coppernob
&lt;<a href="mailto:alexnorton&#64;despammed.com" target="_blank">alexnorton&#64;despammed.com</a>&gt; wrote:


&gt;What makes me laugh is Inter parading verginal status when they they
&gt;admit having fabbricated passports for their own players, when they
&gt;are caught going to dinner with the same Bergamo that has Moggi in hot
&gt;water.

The passport affair is completely different, it's like comparing not
paying the parking with making a robbery in a bank.

Talking to Pairetto or Bergamo was not a crime itself, Facchetti
called him to ask for news on the referees before CL matches, this is
a completely different story than calling to give orders or order-like
advices.

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#44: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-17 23:52:55 by Coppernob

On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 23:07:06 +0200, Goldmund &lt;<a href="mailto:user&#64;provider.com" target="_blank">user&#64;provider.com</a>&gt;
wrote:

&gt;The passport affair is completely different, it's like comparing not
&gt;paying the parking with making a robbery in a bank.

Playing 29 games with a player that should not have played one affects
more of a championship that anything Milan has been accused of.

Report this message

#45: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-18 08:15:20 by Goldmund

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 08:49:55 +0200, &quot;Futbolmetrix&quot;
&lt;<a href="mailto:futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;That is certainly, 100%, &quot;illecito sportivo&quot;. I have no idea how Inter got
&gt;away with it.
&gt;
&gt;Not that I would dare to question the honorability of the Immaculate
&gt;Virgins, of course.
&gt;
&gt;Daniele

i'm quite amused with the Immaculate attribute, because it's meant to
be ironic, but I just see it as a pathetic attempt of someone drowning
to grab somebody and pull him down.

The whole passport story was one of the most stupid situation football
produced. It was plain evident that most of those people weren't
enitlted to have one, or not so quickly at least. I know of people
that have parents or sons here and are still waiting, while we had
football players with a cousin's aunt of the father in law that got
their italian passports in few days.
I consider the limit to extraeuropean players stupid, and I think that
all teams made something shifty to get a passport for their players.

Inter, and that was a delusion, was surely into it. But that story is
not comparable to the current system.
And Moggi's system was not the worse, I still consider Milan's power
much stronger and smarter.

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#46: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-18 08:25:49 by Diabolik

&quot;Goldmund&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:user&#64;provider.com" target="_blank">user&#64;provider.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:mguob2lrmekmsbhtsfpu1fsjpshh11sli7&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">mguob2lrmekmsbhtsfpu1fsjpshh11sli7&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt; On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 08:49:55 +0200, &quot;Futbolmetrix&quot;
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;That is certainly, 100%, &quot;illecito sportivo&quot;. I have no idea how Inter
got
&gt; &gt;away with it.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;Not that I would dare to question the honorability of the Immaculate
&gt; &gt;Virgins, of course.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;Daniele
&gt;
&gt; i'm quite amused with the Immaculate attribute, because it's meant to
&gt; be ironic, but I just see it as a pathetic attempt of someone drowning
&gt; to grab somebody and pull him down.

Moratti would have to be the cleanest president in Serie A.
He is a true and honest gentleman.


&gt; The whole passport story was one of the most stupid situation football
&gt; produced. It was plain evident that most of those people weren't
&gt; enitlted to have one, or not so quickly at least. I know of people
&gt; that have parents or sons here and are still waiting, while we had
&gt; football players with a cousin's aunt of the father in law that got
&gt; their italian passports in few days.
&gt; I consider the limit to extraeuropean players stupid, and I think that
&gt; all teams made something shifty to get a passport for their players.
&gt;
&gt; Inter, and that was a delusion, was surely into it. But that story is
&gt; not comparable to the current system.
&gt; And Moggi's system was not the worse, I still consider Milan's power
&gt; much stronger and smarter.

What did Milan do with their power?

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#47: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-18 10:04:08 by Futbolmetrix

&quot;Goldmund&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:user&#64;provider.com" target="_blank">user&#64;provider.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:mguob2lrmekmsbhtsfpu1fsjpshh11sli7&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">mguob2lrmekmsbhtsfpu1fsjpshh11sli7&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; i'm quite amused with the Immaculate attribute, because it's meant to
&gt; be ironic, but I just see it as a pathetic attempt of someone drowning
&gt; to grab somebody and pull him down.

On the contrary. It's someone drowning who admires the sturdy and solid
vessel with the black and blue flag, which is certainly immune to any risk
of being dragged down itself.

&gt; Inter, and that was a delusion, was surely into it. But that story is
&gt; not comparable to the current system.

I can agree that getting a false passport for Recoba was not comparable to
the Moggi-Galliani-Carraro system, but an &quot;illecito&quot; is defined very
clearly, and very broadly:

&quot;Il compimento, con qualsiasi mezzo, di atti diretti ad alterare lo
svolgimento o il risultato di una gara ovvero ad assicurare a chiunque un
vantaggio in classifica, costituisce illecito sportivo.&quot;

&quot;The enactment, with any means, of acts directed to alter the development or
the result of a match, or to ensure to anybody an advantage in the
standings, represents sporting fraud&quot;

Note the &quot;any means&quot; part: bribing or choosing the refs is equivalent to
falsifying a player's passport. Note also the part where it says &quot;to ensure
to *anybody* an advantage in the standings.&quot; Anybody, not necessarily the
team that is enacting the fraud. Therefore, even if by fielding Recoba Inter
was in fact ensuring an advantage in the standings to all its opponents,
it's still sporting fraud.

Daniele

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#48: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-18 12:23:02 by Diabolik

&quot;Futbolmetrix&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:e9diq3$vtq$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.iucc.ac.il..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.iucc.ac.il...</a>
&gt; &quot;Diabolik&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:diabolik&#64;email.it" target="_blank">diabolik&#64;email.it</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:aorug.5890$<a href="mailto:tE5.2390&#64;news-server.bigpond.net.au..." target="_blank">tE5.2390&#64;news-server.bigpond.net.au...</a>
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I have accepted it, no problem, but since you know what has been
&gt; &gt; happening,
&gt; &gt; like I do, don't you think the sentences are harsh, blaming the clubs as
&gt; &gt; scapegoats,
&gt;
&gt; I'm in Serie B with a 30 point penalty, so I should be the first one to
&gt; complain about the verdict being too harsh. Given the seriousness of the
&gt; accusations, though, the verdict is not too harsh, and I can understand
&gt; those who complain about it being too lenient.
&gt;
&gt; Whether there is enough evidence to sustain the accusations is another
&gt; matter.

Well, that's the crucial matter.
I've never seen courts make sentences based on &quot;theories&quot;.



&gt; Whether deep down I believe the accusations to be true is a third matter.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &gt; instead of the whole system, and Carraro who allowed it to
&gt; &gt; happen?
&gt;
&gt; The one positive thing about this verdict is that Franco &quot;Mr. Armchair&quot;
&gt; Carraro has been suspended for 4 and a half years.

And that's not enough.

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#49: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-18 14:47:36 by Bruce Scott TOK

Daniele P wrote:

&gt;&quot;Coppernob&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:alexnorton&#64;despammed.com" target="_blank">alexnorton&#64;despammed.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;news:<a href="mailto:og1ob2pg1cmufd5gselok2t3ln6g9jm5b1&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">og1ob2pg1cmufd5gselok2t3ln6g9jm5b1&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Playing 29 games with a player that should not have played one affects
&gt;&gt; more of a championship that anything Milan has been accused of.
&gt;
&gt;That is certainly, 100%, &quot;illecito sportivo&quot;. I have no idea how Inter got
&gt;away with it.
&gt;
&gt;Not that I would dare to question the honorability of the Immaculate
&gt;Virgins, of course.

They are just dumb lucky. Both dumb and lucky. Their fans realise it
and you have to understand they don't want to turn over any of the
stones themselves, though many would concede what would be found were
those stones turned over by others. My Juventino friends here are
similar... they'd never point the finger themselves but they are indeed
able to regard what has been uncovered.

--
ciao,
Bruce

drift wave turbulence: <a href="http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/" target="_blank">http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/</a>

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#50: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-18 16:00:43 by Benny

&gt; Subject : Calciopoli Verdicts
&gt; From : Futbolmetrix &lt;<a href="mailto:futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt;

&gt;Maybe we should go back and see what you posted when the first wiretappings
&gt;of Moggi and Pairetto came out, when all they talked about was referees for
&gt;friendlies and CL matches.
&gt;
&gt;Daniele

No they didn't.

9 February 2005 : Juventus director, Luciano Moggi, speaking with the
referee designator Paolo Bergamo

Moggi : Now I'll tell you what I've learned or studied
Bergamo :We'll see what happens my studies or findings
Moggi : Let's look a bit
Bergamo : We'll see if I've studied the thing better That we put in the
first line of the first teams? Of the matches?

Moggi : Let me get a piece of paper because I looked it over today
pretty well
So I came out with Inter-Roma
Bergamo : Yes
Moggi : Juventus-Udinese
Bergamo : yes
Moggi : Reggina-Milan
Bergamo : Yes
Moggi : Fiorentina-Parma, that this game can not be not place in this
position and Siena-Messina
Bergamo : Yes
Moggi : I picked 5 but I think you can put it also a at 4 but, its not
that, but Siena-Messina looks like an important enough match to me
anyway, no?
Bergamo : Then there is also Livorno-Sampdoria that in the first round
of matches against this club there was a mess. However, Ok go ahead,
anyway, this will not change
Moggi : I know of teams that like Livorno e Sampdoria that in reality
are a little more at ease
Bergamo : Well ok go. Anyway, this won't change things , we can even add
another one if we want to but the refs that we have available for the
first phase are few. Tell me
Moggi : I put Bertini in charge
Bergamo : Uh
Moggi : Paparesta is coming back
Bergamo : No, Paparesta he's not returning
Moggi : Returns Friday
Bergamo : Are you sure
Moggi : Positive
Bergamo : But Gigi told me that this match with Uefa is going to keep
him out until the 12th?
Moggi : I told you that the 12th when is it?
Bergamo : Saturday
Moggi : No, no, he's returning Friday evening. Bertini, Paparesta,
Trefoloni, Racalbuto,
I put them down for Tombolini but Tombolini screwed everything up with
Lazio, I'm not sure this guy here the way he is will screw things and
give up penalties
Bergamo : Uh
Moggi : And these were the refs that I put in this grid
Bergamo : And Rodomonti in place of Tombolini, no?
Moggi : .Rodomonti in place of Tombolini, is ok also
Bergamo : So then Friday night it will be the same you will see
Moggi : I believe this thing could be the one grid or a grid
Bergamo : Therefore, I don't have Paparesta. I had 4. I had Bertini,
Racalbuto, Rodomonti &amp; Trefoloni. Sincerely I wanted Tombolini to be out
one match because he made a mistake otherwise they will never be
punished
Moggi : Yes, yes, no, no, no. Hey? Look I will now tell you it could be
that I'm mistaken
I have to make people under me happy no? If you for example don't punish
Collina and Rosetti, the other are all authorized
Bergamo : In fact this. Collina and Rosetti I didn't put them in at
all, eh?
Moggi : No, to tell you but the others are authorized to say if they do
it we can also, they don't have to break our balls
Bergamo : I have them written down. Bertini, Rodomonti, Trefoloni, then
you tell me Paparesta, is better. Paparesta comes back &amp; he should be
judged. The important thing is that he returns on Friday because Inter-
Roma is going to be played on Saturday.
Moggi : No, no Friday he is returning. No, no, there are no problems. I
believe this will be or will not be a problem on this grid. I think. I
think that, in soccer no one ever knows, if they create a problem or not
but...
Bergamo : No, but I also believe that this is the only thing that I
don't care about but I'm not interested if Bertini goes and refs
Reggina-Milan. That it will be his 6th time he refs Milan and from that
time it will then be blocked. Have patience oh He won't ref Milan-
Juventus but this isn't what we are afraid of because he already refed
the away game

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#51: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-18 17:51:39 by Futbolmetrix

&quot;Benny&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Benny&#64;soccer-europe.com" target="_blank">Benny&#64;soccer-europe.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:jWVT5qAAhOvEFwXm&#64;mail.soccer-europe.com..." target="_blank">jWVT5qAAhOvEFwXm&#64;mail.soccer-europe.com...</a>

&gt;
&gt;&gt;Maybe we should go back and see what you posted when the first
&gt;&gt;wiretappings
&gt;&gt;of Moggi and Pairetto came out, when all they talked about was referees
&gt;&gt;for
&gt;&gt;friendlies and CL matches.
&gt;&gt;
&gt; 9 February 2005 : Juventus director, Luciano Moggi, speaking with the
&gt; referee designator Paolo Bergamo

I'm referring to the conversations between Moggi and Pairetto, that came out
around May 5. You are quoting the famous conversation between Moggi and
Bergamo, that came out about 7-10 days later.

Daniele

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#52: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-18 19:22:56 by Goldmund

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 08:51:25 +0200, &quot;Futbolmetrix&quot;
&lt;<a href="mailto:futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;
&gt;&quot;Goldmund&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:user&#64;provider.com" target="_blank">user&#64;provider.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;news:<a href="mailto:apunb29gr6vhplbpuc93oqqfb0901ad2d1&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">apunb29gr6vhplbpuc93oqqfb0901ad2d1&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Talking to Pairetto or Bergamo was not a crime itself, Facchetti
&gt;&gt; called him to ask for news on the referees before CL matches, this is
&gt;&gt; a completely different story than calling to give orders or order-like
&gt;&gt; advices.
&gt;
&gt;Maybe we should go back and see what you posted when the first wiretappings
&gt;of Moggi and Pairetto came out, when all they talked about was referees for
&gt;friendlies and CL matches.

Yes, feel free to do it

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#53: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-18 19:45:59 by Benny

&gt; Subject : Calciopoli Verdicts
&gt; From : Futbolmetrix &lt;<a href="mailto:futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt;

&gt;I'm referring to the conversations between Moggi and Pairetto, that came out
&gt;around May 5. You are quoting the famous conversation between Moggi and
&gt;Bergamo, that came out about 7-10 days later.
&gt;
&gt;Daniele

It doesn't matter when they came out as I said before Moggi had no
business discussing referee appointments with Pairetto and that's what
got him and Juve in so much trouble.

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#54: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-18 20:36:29 by Goldmund

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 10:04:08 +0200, &quot;Futbolmetrix&quot;
&lt;<a href="mailto:futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;&quot;Goldmund&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:user&#64;provider.com" target="_blank">user&#64;provider.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;news:<a href="mailto:mguob2lrmekmsbhtsfpu1fsjpshh11sli7&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">mguob2lrmekmsbhtsfpu1fsjpshh11sli7&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; i'm quite amused with the Immaculate attribute, because it's meant to
&gt;&gt; be ironic, but I just see it as a pathetic attempt of someone drowning
&gt;&gt; to grab somebody and pull him down.
&gt;
&gt;On the contrary. It's someone drowning who admires the sturdy and solid
&gt;vessel with the black and blue flag, which is certainly immune to any risk
&gt;of being dragged down itself.

And you think that such an easy attempt may have effect on a team used
to suffer for a whole generation?

&gt;&gt; Inter, and that was a delusion, was surely into it. But that story is
&gt;&gt; not comparable to the current system.
&gt;
&gt;I can agree that getting a false passport for Recoba was not comparable to
&gt;the Moggi-Galliani-Carraro system, but an &quot;illecito&quot; is defined very
&gt;clearly, and very broadly:
&gt;
&gt;&quot;Il compimento, con qualsiasi mezzo, di atti diretti ad alterare lo
&gt;svolgimento o il risultato di una gara ovvero ad assicurare a chiunque un
&gt;vantaggio in classifica, costituisce illecito sportivo.&quot;
&gt;
&gt;&quot;The enactment, with any means, of acts directed to alter the development or
&gt;the result of a match, or to ensure to anybody an advantage in the
&gt;standings, represents sporting fraud&quot;
&gt;
&gt;Note the &quot;any means&quot; part: bribing or choosing the refs is equivalent to
&gt;falsifying a player's passport. Note also the part where it says &quot;to ensure
&gt;to *anybody* an advantage in the standings.&quot; Anybody, not necessarily the
&gt;team that is enacting the fraud. Therefore, even if by fielding Recoba Inter
&gt;was in fact ensuring an advantage in the standings to all its opponents,
&gt;it's still sporting fraud.

Not really. If a team lines up a player that can't be on the pitch (eg
as he's disqualified) the tam is sanctioned, but for sure this does
not configure as a sporting fraud.
I repeat, the case with Recoba was a stupid move made by somebody
close to him, but we cannot compare the two situations

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#55: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-19 08:37:47 by Futbolmetrix

&quot;Goldmund&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:user&#64;provider.com" target="_blank">user&#64;provider.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:vu9qb25m6ebf4t3hmc5sb6ce8u5vcnipqb&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">vu9qb25m6ebf4t3hmc5sb6ce8u5vcnipqb&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; Not really. If a team lines up a player that can't be on the pitch (eg
&gt; as he's disqualified) the tam is sanctioned, but for sure this does
&gt; not configure as a sporting fraud.

So, say that you dock Inter three points for every time they fielded Recoba
(or had him on the bench, I think you would also be sanctioned every time
the player is in the official list of available players). What would the
standings look like?


&gt; I repeat, the case with Recoba was a stupid move made by somebody
&gt; close to him, but we cannot compare the two situations

Maybe, but it's still a mystery why Inter got away with it.

Daniele

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#56: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-19 08:38:52 by Futbolmetrix

&quot;Benny&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Benny&#64;soccer-europe.com" target="_blank">Benny&#64;soccer-europe.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:nJbiehB43RvEFwmU&#64;mail.soccer-europe.com..." target="_blank">nJbiehB43RvEFwmU&#64;mail.soccer-europe.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; It doesn't matter when they came out as I said before Moggi had no
&gt; business discussing referee appointments with Pairetto and that's what
&gt; got him and Juve in so much trouble.

I was specifically replying to Goldmund's defense of Facchetti's
conversations with Pairetto.

Daniele

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#57: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-20 06:29:58 by Goldmund

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 08:37:47 +0200, &quot;Futbolmetrix&quot;
&lt;<a href="mailto:futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">futbolmetrix&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;So, say that you dock Inter three points for every time they fielded Recoba
&gt;(or had him on the bench, I think you would also be sanctioned every time
&gt;the player is in the official list of available players). What would the
&gt;standings look like?

For sure tey wouldn't have lined him up again and again after they
found the passport was false.
And I remind you it wasn't the only false passport, and that, but I'm
sure you remember it, the rule suddenly changed before a Juve-Roma,
just in time for Nakata to score the goal he would have never scored.

&gt;Maybe, but it's still a mystery why Inter got away with it.

I still wonder if I had a false passport, what kind of sanction could
my firm suffer, for not checking that my passport was genuine.
But in football this it seems the club must check it, another oddity,
like the clubs being responsible for the fans in the stadium, a public
place that is controlled by police; I always wonder if a band having a
concert is also to be considered responsible of its fans.

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#58: Re: Calciopoli Verdicts

Posted on 2006-07-23 13:20:41 by mutaforme da Google

Coppernob ha scritto:


&gt; and when Milan saw it, Galliani went to the police to denounce it.

ROTFL

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