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#1: Underestimation of Phoenix

Posted on 2006-07-15 01:48:13 by gomavs

First of all I am not doing this to humble any Suns fans. Can't stand 90% of
them...

However, I feel they are being underestimated. Granted Stoudamire has been
gone all year but a year away from playing outside of practice which he has
been able to do some of, most players of his skill level come back and
preform just fine.

With that said there seems to be alot of underestimating and it seems built
off the fact that the Spurs killed the Suns 2 years ago and the Mavs barely
got by them this year when they didnt have Stoud'.

I was impressed by Barbosa and Diaw first and foremost. I don't see how
everyone can just count them as another Kings team though... Like they are
just going to be going away now that they have lost twice in the wcf... This
team has alot of skillfull players and they arent your traditional ball
team.

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#2: Re: Underestimation of Phoenix

Posted on 2006-07-15 04:49:32 by Lee Watkins

*mavs* wrote:
> First of all I am not doing this to humble any Suns fans. Can't stand 90% of
> them...
>
> However, I feel they are being underestimated. Granted Stoudamire has been
> gone all year but a year away from playing outside of practice which he has
> been able to do some of, most players of his skill level come back and
> preform just fine.

from microfracture surgery?
yes, the success rate has gotten higher and higher as the years go by
and medical technology advances. but ive never seen an athlete try to
come back as soon as stoudamire did. the quickest i can ever remember
an athlete getting back to 100%-ish after the surgery has been like 18
months. he took a huge risk coming back last season.


>
> With that said there seems to be alot of underestimating and it seems built
> off the fact that the Spurs killed the Suns 2 years ago and the Mavs barely
> got by them this year when they didnt have Stoud'.
>
> I was impressed by Barbosa and Diaw first and foremost. I don't see how
> everyone can just count them as another Kings team though... Like they are
> just going to be going away now that they have lost twice in the wcf... This
> team has alot of skillfull players and they arent your traditional ball
> team.
>
>

my take on the suns. not to bash the suns, just my opinion....they dont
play defense. you cant win a title without defense. and they cant play
defense. look at their core. nash, marion, stoudamire. these guys are
thouroughbreds, built for running the court. but they arent defenders
by any stretch. and probably never will be.
so what happens if you bring defenders in? well, i cant remember them
ever trying it, but i would guess that their offense grinds to a stop.
who are the suns players known for defense? kurt thomas? brian grant
(is he still with them?). hardly runners and gunners.
their offense works because you have athletes and the 4 and 5, and
shooting specalists with a perpetual green light. look at the success
they have plugging underacheivers in at the 2 and 3 year from year. not
a defender among them, but boy can they score in that system.

unless they can find some young defensive stoppers with speed and 3pt
range, or a very athltic big man who gives them a legitamite post
presence on both ends, i dont see them as serious contendors.

VERY entertaining ball, but not gonna win a title.

lee

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#3: Re: Underestimation of Phoenix

Posted on 2006-07-15 07:11:54 by Venger

&quot;Lee Watkins&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:spamisforsandwiches-lwatkins&#64;falcon.tamucc.edu" target="_blank">spamisforsandwiches-lwatkins&#64;falcon.tamucc.edu</a>&gt; wrote in
message news:0JYtg.4324$<a href="mailto:78.1157&#64;tornado.texas.rr.com..." target="_blank">78.1157&#64;tornado.texas.rr.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; my take on the suns. not to bash the suns, just my opinion....they dont
&gt; play defense. you cant win a title without defense. and they cant play
&gt; defense. look at their core. nash, marion, stoudamire. these guys are
&gt; thouroughbreds, built for running the court. but they arent defenders by
&gt; any stretch. and probably never will be.

These Suns are precisely what the Mavs were.

Venger

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#4: Re: Underestimation of Phoenix

Posted on 2006-07-15 09:38:40 by Mr Black

&quot;Venger&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:venger&#64;augustmail.com" target="_blank">venger&#64;augustmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:uO_tg.131339$<a href="mailto:dW3.15268&#64;newssvr21.news.prodigy.com..." target="_blank">dW3.15268&#64;newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Lee Watkins&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:spamisforsandwiches-lwatkins&#64;falcon.tamucc.edu" target="_blank">spamisforsandwiches-lwatkins&#64;falcon.tamucc.edu</a>&gt; wrote in
&gt; message news:0JYtg.4324$<a href="mailto:78.1157&#64;tornado.texas.rr.com..." target="_blank">78.1157&#64;tornado.texas.rr.com...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; my take on the suns. not to bash the suns, just my opinion....they dont
&gt;&gt; play defense. you cant win a title without defense. and they cant play
&gt;&gt; defense. look at their core. nash, marion, stoudamire. these guys are
&gt;&gt; thouroughbreds, built for running the court. but they arent defenders by
&gt;&gt; any stretch. and probably never will be.
&gt;
&gt; These Suns are precisely what the Mavs were.
&gt;

that pretty much sums it up

MrB

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#5: Re: Underestimation of Phoenix

Posted on 2006-07-17 00:55:50 by covanus

Mr Black wrote:

&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; These Suns are precisely what the Mavs were.
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt; that pretty much sums it up

Stoudamire may not be the best defender out there, but is significantly
better than Nowitzki. Marion is a capable defender, though has
unfortunately been forced to be a nearly full-time interior defender
with Stoudamire and K. Thomas out, which isn't the best thing for him.
As a perimeter defender, he's more than satistfactory. Bell built his
career on his defensive play. Diaw is a fine defensive player. The
Suns had the same win percentage with K. Thomas in the line-up than
without him, though their defense was significantly better. Now,
since Diaw has proven he can play center, he can float between
positions as needed, allowing K. Thomas to move in to provide more
sturdy interior defense if necessary. Assuming Stoudamire is healthy,
and Marion can primarily be a perimeter defender (to go along with
Bell), I don't see any major lack of defense as compared to the other
contending teams in the league. With everyone healthy, I'd say the
Suns are at least as competent defensively as the current Mavs team.

The more urgent problem with the Suns will be the lack of a bench and
D'Antoni's unwillingness to actually play his bench, which often
resulted in poor energy/bad defense around the end of games. That
situation is apparently going to be worse this year, with House, T.
Thomas, and Tskitishvili leaving, along with the team essentially
throwing away its draft picks (which could have replaced House with
Marcus Williams or Rajon Rando). Piatkowski isn't exactly going to be
the answer. It's looking like an 8-man rotation for the whole year
(Nash, Bell, Marion, Stoudamire, Diaw, Thomas, Jones, Barbosa); if any
of those players get hurt, it's going to compound problems even more
and the team will again likely have little left after the 2nd round of
the playoffs.

--IK

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#6: Re: Underestimation of Phoenix

Posted on 2006-07-17 04:22:39 by Michael Fletcher

*mavs* wrote:

&gt;This team has alot of skillfull players and they arent your traditional ball
&gt; team.

It all depends on Stoudamire. If he's alright and he becomes a place
they can toss the ball whenever they're threatened they'll be scary for
years. If not they'll win lots of games in the regular season with
nothing to show for it.

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#7: Re: Underestimation of Phoenix

Posted on 2006-07-17 15:47:51 by Marcus Kwan

On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 05:11:54 GMT, &quot;Venger&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:venger&#64;augustmail.com" target="_blank">venger&#64;augustmail.com</a>&gt;
wrote:

&gt;
&gt;&quot;Lee Watkins&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:spamisforsandwiches-lwatkins&#64;falcon.tamucc.edu" target="_blank">spamisforsandwiches-lwatkins&#64;falcon.tamucc.edu</a>&gt; wrote in
&gt;message news:0JYtg.4324$<a href="mailto:78.1157&#64;tornado.texas.rr.com..." target="_blank">78.1157&#64;tornado.texas.rr.com...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; my take on the suns. not to bash the suns, just my opinion....they dont
&gt;&gt; play defense. you cant win a title without defense. and they cant play
&gt;&gt; defense. look at their core. nash, marion, stoudamire. these guys are
&gt;&gt; thouroughbreds, built for running the court. but they arent defenders by
&gt;&gt; any stretch. and probably never will be.
&gt;
&gt;These Suns are precisely what the Mavs were.
&gt;
&gt;Venger
&gt;

The Mavs weren't as athletic, but were a better jump shooting team.
Finley's game was nothing like Marion's, and Dirk was nothing like
Amare. I think the Mavs were built such that a transition to half
court play was easier. I think the Suns have serious issues in the
half court, as Amare is not a true isolation post up player, at least
not yet. His moves are raw and predicated on his unbelievable
quickness.

Philosophically, though, you are correct. These Suns, like the Mavs
of three or four years ago, try to win on just one side of the ball.

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#8: Re: Underestimation of Phoenix

Posted on 2006-07-17 16:12:25 by Venger

&quot;Marcus Kwan&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mnospamkwan1&#64;gte.net" target="_blank">mnospamkwan1&#64;gte.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:r25nb2h1evs2ro9fdq3qpk597ul57a469b&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">r25nb2h1evs2ro9fdq3qpk597ul57a469b&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt; On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 05:11:54 GMT, &quot;Venger&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:venger&#64;augustmail.com" target="_blank">venger&#64;augustmail.com</a>&gt;
&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&quot;Lee Watkins&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:spamisforsandwiches-lwatkins&#64;falcon.tamucc.edu" target="_blank">spamisforsandwiches-lwatkins&#64;falcon.tamucc.edu</a>&gt; wrote in
&gt;&gt;message news:0JYtg.4324$<a href="mailto:78.1157&#64;tornado.texas.rr.com..." target="_blank">78.1157&#64;tornado.texas.rr.com...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; my take on the suns. not to bash the suns, just my opinion....they dont
&gt;&gt;&gt; play defense. you cant win a title without defense. and they cant play
&gt;&gt;&gt; defense. look at their core. nash, marion, stoudamire. these guys are
&gt;&gt;&gt; thouroughbreds, built for running the court. but they arent defenders
&gt;&gt;&gt; by
&gt;&gt;&gt; any stretch. and probably never will be.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;These Suns are precisely what the Mavs were.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Venger
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt; The Mavs weren't as athletic, but were a better jump shooting team.
&gt; Finley's game was nothing like Marion's, and Dirk was nothing like
&gt; Amare. I think the Mavs were built such that a transition to half
&gt; court play was easier. I think the Suns have serious issues in the
&gt; half court, as Amare is not a true isolation post up player, at least
&gt; not yet. His moves are raw and predicated on his unbelievable
&gt; quickness.
&gt;
&gt; Philosophically, though, you are correct. These Suns, like the Mavs
&gt; of three or four years ago, try to win on just one side of the ball.

Bingo...

Venger

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#9: Re: Underestimation of Phoenix

Posted on 2006-07-17 16:34:31 by covanus

Venger wrote:
&gt;&gt; &gt; Philosophically, though, you are correct. These Suns, like the Mavs
&gt; &gt; of three or four years ago, try to win on just one side of the ball.
&gt;
&gt; Bingo...

That's putting it a bit simply. There's always some kind of balance
and the Suns have chosen to play to their strengths - and have been
highly successful the past two years despite major roster changes and
injuries both years. The Suns' transition game wouldn't work if they
weren't capable of forcing missed shots. As the playoffs often
proved, their main difficulty wasn't in forcing those misses but in
getting the rebounds; and this was often exposed in the recent
playoffs. If you look at differentials over the season, the Suns were
4th in point diff, 1st in asst diff, even 4th in block diff, but then a
woeful 28th in rebound diff. Even if Stoudamire doesn't end up to be
quite as explosive offensively as before, just the ability to grab
defensive rebounds will immensely improve the team. And again, with
Stoudamire and K. Thomas back to rebound, the team is sure to benefit
from Marion and Diaw being freed to provide better perimeter defense
and get out on the break even more.

-IK

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#10: Re: Underestimation of Phoenix

Posted on 2006-07-17 16:50:18 by Venger

&lt;<a href="mailto:covanus&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">covanus&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1153146871.437939.258400&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153146871.437939.258400&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; Venger wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Philosophically, though, you are correct. These Suns, like the Mavs
&gt;&gt; &gt; of three or four years ago, try to win on just one side of the ball.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Bingo...
&gt;
&gt; That's putting it a bit simply. There's always some kind of balance
&gt; and the Suns have chosen to play to their strengths - and have been
&gt; highly successful the past two years despite major roster changes and
&gt; injuries both years. The Suns' transition game wouldn't work if they
&gt; weren't capable of forcing missed shots. As the playoffs often
&gt; proved, their main difficulty wasn't in forcing those misses but in
&gt; getting the rebounds; and this was often exposed in the recent
&gt; playoffs. If you look at differentials over the season, the Suns were
&gt; 4th in point diff, 1st in asst diff, even 4th in block diff, but then a
&gt; woeful 28th in rebound diff.

Hard to get a rebound when your best rebounding player (Marion) is known for
releasing when the other team takes a shot...

Venger

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#11: Re: Underestimation of Phoenix

Posted on 2006-07-18 00:37:12 by covanus

Venger wrote:
&gt; Hard to get a rebound when your best rebounding player (Marion) is known for
&gt; releasing when the other team takes a shot...

Ummm, you seem to be missing the point: it's hard to get a rebound when
your best rebounding player (K. Thomas) and 3rd best rebounder--and
primary post player--(Stoudamire) both sustain season ending injuries,
forcing Marion, who should rightfully *be* out on the break stick
around enough to still collect an excellent 12 reb/gm.



-IK

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