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#1: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-11 18:34:20 by David Emerling

&quot;TheDave©&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no&#64;no.com" target="_blank">no&#64;no.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:uWRsg.14064$<a href="mailto:Dn3.6307&#64;newsfe17.lga..." target="_blank">Dn3.6307&#64;newsfe17.lga...</a>
&gt;I cringe every time I hear &quot;one swing of the bat&quot;, regardless of the
&gt; context. It can apply to literally every player and virtually every
&gt; situation. There is no bigger &quot;DUH!!!&quot; statement in all of baseball.
&gt; It reflects more a lack of articulateness on the part of the announcer
&gt; than some meaningful comment on the game.

I have coached for many years and one of my pet peeves is when players (and
coaches) yell out meaningless crap. I am not a big fan of &quot;chatter.&quot; I
discourage my coaches and fans to say, &quot;Let's hear some chatter out there!&quot;

Why?

I want my fielders to focus on the task at hand, not thinking up meaningless
crap to yell just to please the coaches and fans. If they have something to
say, SAY IT. But it should be something that involves communicating
something important. A word of encouragement now and then is also good ...
but it should be meaningful and in an appropriate context. Just having a
bunch of fielders chattering their heads off like a monkeys in a zoo is
silly, pointless, and counter-productive.

Another pet peeve of mine is when coaches talk too much to the players,
worst yet, yelling out uninspiring and worthless platitudes ... mostly just
to hear themselves talk and make others believe that they are on top of the
situation. It does the players absolutely no good and only serves to teach
the players to tune the coach out in the future.

When a player makes a physical error, like throwing the ball over the 1st
baseman's head, or boots a groundball - there really isn't much that needs
to be said. The player already knows that it's &quot;bad&quot;. He certainly didn't do
it on purpose. And chastising him serves no purpose. Saying something like
&quot;We gotta have good throws out there!&quot; -or- &quot;Get your glove down!&quot; are
worthless platitudes. Duh! You can work on that in practice ... but it's
game time now. So shut up!

I'm a pitching coach, mostly. Many coaches make the mistake of living and
dying with every pitch. If it's a good pitch, they immediately blurt out,
&quot;Good pitch! Right there!&quot; If it's a little low they say, &quot;Bring it up!&quot; If
the count is 0-2 they say, &quot;Nothing too good!&quot; If the count is 3-0 and they
say, &quot;Climb the ladder!&quot; Virtually on *every* pitch, there is a comment.
This conditions the pitcher to expect a &quot;report card&quot; on every little thing
he does. It makes him feel like he's under a microscope and has the effect
of increasing his tension. I'm not saying a word of encouragement or
something instructional should be completely avoided - I'm just saying that
there should not be a running commentary after every pitch.

I try to education the parents that they should also avoid this. This is
especially true for very young pitchers.

If he is struggling for a few pitches, try being silent and not
acknowledging his struggles and allow him to work his way through it without
his being hyperaware of everybody else's awareness. On the other hand, on
occasion, the same has to be done when he is pitching very well. The high's
can't be too high and the low's can't be too low. There is no reason to go
completely, insanely ecstatic just because the pitcher had a 1-2-3 inning.

When I was the pitching coach of a 13-yr-old team a few years, we were in
the midst of upsetting a very good team. One that we've never defeated. We
had a 3-run lead going into the last inning. With two outs and no runners on
base, I called time to talk with the pitcher and infielders. I said, &quot;We're
going to win this game. We need one more out. And when we win this game, I
don't want a bunch of jumping around like you just won the seventh game of
the World Series or somebody just told you there was free ice cream at the
concession stand. I want you to jog off this field like this is what we do
all the time. We've won lots of games this season and this is just another
one. I want you to act like this is not the first game you ever won a
baseball game. Understand?&quot;

But, to finally answer the original question ...

Being a pitching coach, naturally, they are pitching related.

I *hate* it when anybody tells a struggling pitcher, &quot;Throw strikes.&quot;

Duh. Boy, is *that* ever helpful.

Try something more creative to say like, &quot;Just relax and focus on the
glove.&quot; Or, better, SHUT UP!

The second worse thing to tell a pitcher is &quot;Let them hit it!&quot; I would
rather say, &quot;Force them to swing the bat.&quot; There's a difference. Telling a
10-yr-old pitcher to &quot;Let them hit it&quot; is really not the message you want to
send.

I could go on forever on this kind of stuff. Sorry to take up your time.

This ends my rant. But it was very therapeutic. :)

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

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#2: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-11 19:21:11 by Ryan Robbins

&quot;David Emerling&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com" target="_blank">demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
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&gt;
&gt; &quot;TheDave©&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no&#64;no.com" target="_blank">no&#64;no.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:uWRsg.14064$<a href="mailto:Dn3.6307&#64;newsfe17.lga..." target="_blank">Dn3.6307&#64;newsfe17.lga...</a>
&gt;&gt;I cringe every time I hear &quot;one swing of the bat&quot;, regardless of the
&gt;&gt; context. It can apply to literally every player and virtually every
&gt;&gt; situation. There is no bigger &quot;DUH!!!&quot; statement in all of baseball.
&gt;&gt; It reflects more a lack of articulateness on the part of the announcer
&gt;&gt; than some meaningful comment on the game.
&gt;
&gt; I have coached for many years and one of my pet peeves is when players
&gt; (and coaches) yell out meaningless crap. I am not a big fan of &quot;chatter.&quot;
&gt; I discourage my coaches and fans to say, &quot;Let's hear some chatter out
&gt; there!&quot;
&gt;
&gt; Why?
&gt;
&gt; I want my fielders to focus on the task at hand, not thinking up
&gt; meaningless crap to yell just to please the coaches and fans.

Yay! When I played, I always got crap from some coaches for not being the
consummate team player simply because I didn't chatter. When I managed a
farm league team team 12 years ago, I never told my players they had to say
anything on the field, or even on the bench. It was nice to whack 17-8 a
team that was notorious for chattering. The coaches of that team were more
focused on getting their players to cheer each other on, and they paid for
it. &quot;The game is won on the field, not with your mouth,&quot; I told my players.

The other coaches thought I was making the game too serious, so they ran me
out the following year.

Cliches I hate:

(1) Choke and poke!

(2) Rock and fire!

(3) Bend your back

(4) Take one for the team

(5) That wasn't yours

(6) That was right down the middle! (always coming from the bench)

(7) Be tough with two!

(8) The hands are part of the bat

(9) Be a hitter!

(10) A walk's as good as a hit

There are so many others, I don't have time to list them all.

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#3: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-11 19:35:14 by Will in New Haven

TheDave=A9 wrote:
&gt; I cringe every time I hear &quot;one swing of the bat&quot;, regardless of the
&gt; context. It can apply to literally every player and virtually every
&gt; situation. There is no bigger &quot;DUH!!!&quot; statement in all of baseball.
&gt; It reflects more a lack of articulateness on the part of the announcer
&gt; than some meaningful comment on the game.

Well, there are a lot of them but &quot;He's a triple away from the cycle&quot;
or, worse, &quot;He's just a Triple away from hitting for the cycle.&quot; It
strikes me as rather odd considering how unlikely Triples are. I think
it was last year sometime that Jorge Posada hit, I think a Double, and
Micheal Kay said &quot;He's just a Triple,&quot; etc. Posada probably has hit a
Triple but come ON. On the other hand, Kay once pointed out that
Soriano, when he was on the Yankees &quot;only needs to be picked off at
Third&quot; in order to be &quot;picked off for the cycle.&quot; I thought THAT was
inventive.=20

Will in New Haven

--=20

&quot;Throw stirkes, Babe Ruth's dead&quot;

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#4: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-11 20:16:58 by no

I cringe every time I hear &quot;one swing of the bat&quot;, regardless of the
context. It can apply to literally every player and virtually every
situation. There is no bigger &quot;DUH!!!&quot; statement in all of baseball.
It reflects more a lack of articulateness on the part of the announcer
than some meaningful comment on the game.

Report this message

#5: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-11 20:20:32 by artyw2

TheDave=A9 wrote:
&gt; I cringe every time I hear &quot;one swing of the bat&quot;, regardless of the
&gt; context. It can apply to literally every player and virtually every
&gt; situation. There is no bigger &quot;DUH!!!&quot; statement in all of baseball.
&gt; It reflects more a lack of articulateness on the part of the announcer
&gt; than some meaningful comment on the game.

Do kids still say &quot;We want a pitcher, not a belly itcher&quot;?

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#6: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-11 20:40:36 by David Emerling

&quot;Ryan Robbins&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:redbird007&#64;verizon.net" target="_blank">redbird007&#64;verizon.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:b6Rsg.5379$<a href="mailto:pB.2058&#64;trnddc06..." target="_blank">pB.2058&#64;trnddc06...</a>

&gt; (3) Bend your back

This one gets me, too!

It is usually uttered by somebody who knows absolutely NOTHING about
pitching mechanics. All they know is that the pitcher isn't throwing strikes
so they just blurt out something, as a knee jerk reaction, as if that will
somehow cause the ball to enter the strike zone.

Is the pitcher really not bending his back?

And, is *that* what's causing his streak of wildness?

Really?

Nobody ever considers that the inability to throw a strike is not always
related to something mechanical. Sometimes a pitcher just looses his feel
for the &quot;release point&quot;. And, by the way, if a pitcher is consistently
throwing low, telling him, &quot;Let go of it sooner&quot; is of no help. Although it
is true, there is no way a pitcher can consciously make that fine
adjustment. The difference between &quot;letting it go sooner&quot; and holding on to
it too long, at the arm speeds that are generated, is not something a
pitcher can consciously do. It's a feel thing. He either has it or he
doesn't and it can't be taught.

How 'bout this one for hitters ...

&quot;Get your elbow up!&quot;

Again, usually uttered by somebody who knows little about hitting mechanics
but he's heard that phrase so many times that he just shouts it out like a
parrot. And, of course, the players have heard it so many times - they just
ignore it.

A good coach comes up with key phrases that are often tailor made for
individual players. The phrase triggers a physical response in the player
that has been previously addressed during a training session. The phrase has
*real* meaning to the player because it has been explained to him. It's a
phrase that the player immediately recognizes because it is not used often
and when it is ... it is usually JUST FOR HIM. Nobody else may understand
what the phrase means but the player. It is usually a short phrase that has
a much more complex meaning to the player. He knows his tendencies and he
has corrected them, but, on occasion, he slips back into a bad habit. The
&quot;key phrase&quot; or &quot;trigger phrase&quot; is a quick reminder that he is drifting
back into his old tendencies.

One of my twin sons (both of whom are pitchers), had a problem with bringing
his pitching arm too far back behind him when raring back. This is a common
pitching fault known as &quot;flailing.&quot; You can tell when a pitching is
&quot;flailing&quot; when, from the batter's perspective, you can practically see his
whole arm extend out from behind his back when his hand leaves the glove.
For a right-hander, it's as if he is raring back toward 1st base. Not only
does this put a lot of unnecessary strain on the shoulder, but usually
adversely effects control and velocity.

We've talked about this fault and have worked on it. I've told my son that
he is trying to have too many moving parts. Just remove your hand from your
glove, get a little extension, keep your arm IN FRONT of your body, and fire
it! The throwing motion doesn't need to be complicated by an extreme &quot;rare
back&quot;. Keep it simple.

And that's his &quot;trigger phrase&quot; when he starts drifting back into this bad
habit. Sometimes I'll say to him, &quot;Keep it simple. Nice and easy.&quot; That
phrase has true meaning to him. He's heard that phrase before. He never
hears it addressed to anybody but him. When he hears that phrase he
subconsciously starts correcting it. He no longer has this problem.

It is a lot easier for me to say, &quot;Keep it simple,&quot; than to say, &quot;Alec,
you're flailing out there. You don't need to reach back so far. Keep your
arm in front of your body. Extend your arm toward 2nd base ... not 1st!&quot;
Paralysis by analysis.

Don't conduct clinics while a game is in progress. Sometimes I'll see a
player doing something mechanically wrong in a game and I'll just make a
mental note that we'll have to fix that during practice but, for the time
being, I let him continue to do what he's comfortable with. Changing a
players mechanics in the middle of a game is usually counter-productive.
Players can sometimes have success doing it THEIR way, even if their way
isn't exactly the correct way. There will be time to work on his mechanics
.... LATER! This is particularly true of pitchers, by the way.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

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#7: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-11 21:51:43 by Craig Richardson

On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 18:16:58 GMT, TheDave© &lt;<a href="mailto:no&#64;no.com" target="_blank">no&#64;no.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;I cringe every time I hear &quot;one swing of the bat&quot;, regardless of the
&gt;context. It can apply to literally every player and virtually every
&gt;situation. There is no bigger &quot;DUH!!!&quot; statement in all of baseball.
&gt;It reflects more a lack of articulateness on the part of the announcer
&gt;than some meaningful comment on the game.

Likewise when the score goes from 5-4 to 5-5 in the top of the fifth
and the announcer exclaims &quot;We got a new ball game!&quot;. Maybe in 1964,
one run was a big deal, but not today, especially in what looks to be
a slugfest.

--Craig

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#8: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-11 22:33:05 by Roger Manyard

David Emerling &lt;<a href="mailto:demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com" target="_blank">demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com</a>&gt; trolled:

&gt; I have coached for many years and one of my pet peeves is when
&gt; players (and coaches) yell out meaningless crap. I am not a big
&gt; fan of &quot;chatter.&quot; I discourage my coaches and fans to say, &quot;Let's
&gt; hear some chatter out there!&quot;

You're a fucking boor, aren't you?

&gt; Why?

&gt; I want my fielders to focus on the task at hand, not thinking up
&gt; meaningless crap to yell just to please the coaches and fans. If
&gt; they have something to say, SAY IT. But it should be something
&gt; that involves communicating something important. A word of

The players should all be little robots and everything they do
should be in the name of winning. Every player must be the most
efficient little machine possible, right doofus?

When we were a kid, we used to catch sometime. And we yelled out
garbage, especially at the hitter, because it was FUN.

FUN. We played baseball to have FUN. Most others play to have FUN.
Even the Pros want to have FUN. Even if that FUN comes at a small
cost in efficiency, (and we doubt that it does.)

You're pathetic.

cordially, as always,

rm

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#9: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-11 22:37:09 by Raymond DiPerna

TheDave=A9 wrote:
&gt; I cringe every time I hear &quot;one swing of the bat&quot;, regardless of the
&gt; context. It can apply to literally every player and virtually every
&gt; situation. There is no bigger &quot;DUH!!!&quot; statement in all of baseball.
&gt; It reflects more a lack of articulateness on the part of the announcer
&gt; than some meaningful comment on the game.

When they say that Player X, who has 5 RBIs on the day, &quot;has been the
team's offense.&quot; You kind of needed someone on base for him to drive
in.

And not a cliche, but I hate when the announcers tell you how a
particular batter has done against a particular pitcher (&quot;Loretta is
6-17 in his career against Johnson&quot;) and then try to draw meaningful
conclusions from that information.

And the Yankees announcers have a particular obsession with always
wondering on 3-2 with less than two outs whether the manager will &quot;send
the runners,&quot; including a detailed discussion about whether they (the
announcers) would do it or not. It's mind numbing. There is no play
in baseball I hate more than the hit and run. (&quot;Swing and a miss and
-- oh, look, Manny Ramirez is thrown out by a country mile at second.
Rally over.&quot;)

--Ray

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#10: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-11 22:37:28 by David Emerling

&quot;TheDave©&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no&#64;no.com" target="_blank">no&#64;no.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:uWRsg.14064$<a href="mailto:Dn3.6307&#64;newsfe17.lga..." target="_blank">Dn3.6307&#64;newsfe17.lga...</a>
&gt;I cringe every time I hear &quot;one swing of the bat&quot;, regardless of the
&gt; context. It can apply to literally every player and virtually every
&gt; situation. There is no bigger &quot;DUH!!!&quot; statement in all of baseball.
&gt; It reflects more a lack of articulateness on the part of the announcer
&gt; than some meaningful comment on the game.

Have you ever seen a batter cream a curveball that an announcer didn't
describe as a &quot;hanging curveball?&quot;

It's as if batter's are completely incapable of hitting a GOOD curveball. If
it gets hit hard, then it must have been a hanger. I've seen plenty of
hitters hit, what I would consider, quite GOOD curveballs.

Along that same line ...

You see a catcher setting up low-and-away. The pitcher throws it low-and-in.
The replays shows the pitcher missing his &quot;target&quot; and the announcers always
attribute the hit to the fact that the pitcher missed his target.

Yet, during a pitching sequence you will frequently see the catcher move the
target around, sometimes low-and-in, sometimes low-and-away, sometime
high-and-tight ... all to the SAME batter.

Why is it that batter should have a better chance if a pitcher hits ONE
corner instead of ANOTHER. Really, they are both good pitches. They only
differed by the simple fact that one was an INTENDED target and one was an
UNINTENDED target. Neither was over the fat part of the plate.

In other words, a good hit cannot solely be attributed to the fact that a
pitcher missed his spot.

These aren't really clichés, per se, but they are often meaningless and
shallow analysis that is all too common - a characteristic of most clichés.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

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#11: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-11 22:53:52 by Tarkus

On 7/11/2006 1:37:28 PM, David Emerling wrote:

&gt; Have you ever seen a batter cream a curveball that an announcer didn't
&gt; describe as a &quot;hanging curveball?&quot;
&gt;
&gt; It's as if batter's are completely incapable of hitting a GOOD
&gt; curveball. If it gets hit hard, then it must have been a hanger. I've
&gt; seen plenty of hitters hit, what I would consider, quite GOOD
&gt; curveballs.

Similarly, I've seen curveballs that look like batting practice pitches,
up and over the middle of the plate, but since the batter didn't swing,
they call it a good curveball.

I also hate when announcers always say that a good fastball is about more
than velocity, but then when the pitcher hits a new high on the radar
gun, they call it &quot;his best fastball of the game,&quot; and then point out the
speed.
--
Pitchers.bat found - delete dh.sys (Y/y)?

Now playing: &quot;King Crimson - Book of Saturday&quot;

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#12: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-11 23:40:36 by David Emerling

&quot;Realto Margarino&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:rm&#64;youasked.org" target="_blank">rm&#64;youasked.org</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:4WTsg.117281$<a href="mailto:LI3.32780&#64;fe12.news.easynews.com..." target="_blank">LI3.32780&#64;fe12.news.easynews.com...</a>
&gt; David Emerling &lt;<a href="mailto:demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com" target="_blank">demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com</a>&gt; trolled:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; I have coached for many years and one of my pet peeves is when
&gt;&gt; players (and coaches) yell out meaningless crap. I am not a big
&gt;&gt; fan of &quot;chatter.&quot; I discourage my coaches and fans to say, &quot;Let's
&gt;&gt; hear some chatter out there!&quot;
&gt;
&gt; You're a fucking boor, aren't you?
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Why?
&gt;
&gt;&gt; I want my fielders to focus on the task at hand, not thinking up
&gt;&gt; meaningless crap to yell just to please the coaches and fans. If
&gt;&gt; they have something to say, SAY IT. But it should be something
&gt;&gt; that involves communicating something important. A word of
&gt;
&gt; The players should all be little robots and everything they do
&gt; should be in the name of winning. Every player must be the most
&gt; efficient little machine possible, right doofus?
&gt;
&gt; When we were a kid, we used to catch sometime. And we yelled out
&gt; garbage, especially at the hitter, because it was FUN.
&gt;
&gt; FUN. We played baseball to have FUN. Most others play to have FUN.
&gt; Even the Pros want to have FUN. Even if that FUN comes at a small
&gt; cost in efficiency, (and we doubt that it does.)
&gt;
&gt; You're pathetic.
&gt;
&gt; cordially, as always,
&gt;
&gt; rm

Yelling &quot;Hey batter, batter, ... hey, batter, batter. SWING!&quot; is Bush
League.

It's not about robbing the kids of the fun in the game, it's about teaching
them to focus on the GAME, not the members of the other team. It's about
respecting the game.

FUN is learning the game and playing it properly.

FUN is *not* about coming up with witty phrases and jeering the other team.

You say even the pros have fun. There's no doubt about that. But do you
think Derek Jeter is out there chattering like a monkey and taunting members
of the other team with derisive commentary like, &quot;C'mon, Randy - throw it in
there. This guy can't hit. He's a looker!&quot;

I don't allow that kind of banter.

If you think I'm robbing the players of their fun by not permitting this,
then we'll just have to agree to disagree about the definition of fun.

I do a lot of umpiring. I consider it unsportsmanlike when one team
addresses or refers to members of the opposing team in a demeaning manner. I
don't eject people, I usually just wait for a lull in the game and inform
the coach that the taunting must cease.

I also do not permit jungle screaming from the dugout if it is completely
unintelligible and is clearly for the purpose of distraction. I've seen
teams scream in unison just at the pitcher is delivering the ball. Sometimes
they even bang on the dugout bench to increase the racket.

Listen, I understand baseball is not golf or tennis. There is certainly
going to be some cheering and noise while the game is in progress. But I
think an intelligent person can make a distinction between what is
reasonable and what is downright meanspirited. And *that's* what I'm talking
about.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

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#13: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-11 23:50:36 by elf

On Jul 11 2006 10:34 AM, David Emerling wrote:
&gt;
&gt; I have coached for many years and one of my pet peeves is when players (and
&gt; coaches) yell out meaningless crap. I am not a big fan of &quot;chatter.&quot; I
&gt; discourage my coaches and fans to say, &quot;Let's hear some chatter out there!&quot;
&gt;
&gt; Why?
&gt;
&gt; I want my fielders to focus on the task at hand, not thinking up meaningless
&gt; crap to yell just to please the coaches and fans. If they have something to
&gt; say, SAY IT. But it should be something that involves communicating
&gt; something important. A word of encouragement now and then is also good ...
&gt; but it should be meaningful and in an appropriate context. Just having a
&gt; bunch of fielders chattering their heads off like a monkeys in a zoo is
&gt; silly, pointless, and counter-productive.

I was playing little league ball around age 11 or 12 and as the slowest
lummox on the team I got to play first base. The coach told us get some
chatter going which I'd always found annoying even then, so I stayed
silent which displeased the coach. He yelled at me specifically to start
chattering, so amid all the &quot;hey batter batter, hey batter batter&quot;
nonsense, I started calling out the Gettysburg Address since I'd been
practicing to recite it the next week in class anyway. My mother always
said I was a smart ass at an early age.

____________________________________________________________ ________ 
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com

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#14: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-12 00:24:52 by Ryan Robbins

&quot;David Emerling&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com" target="_blank">demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
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&gt;
&gt; You say even the pros have fun. There's no doubt about that. But do you
&gt; think Derek Jeter is out there chattering like a monkey and taunting
&gt; members of the other team with derisive commentary like, &quot;C'mon, Randy -
&gt; throw it in there. This guy can't hit. He's a looker!&quot;
&gt;
&gt; I don't allow that kind of banter.

This reminds me of Carl Yastrzemski's autobiography from the late-80s or
early 90s, in which he mentions how once you get to the minors you simply do
not, under any circumstances, engage in any form of chatter.

Report this message

#15: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-12 12:40:26 by Roger Manyard

TheDave? &lt;<a href="mailto:no&#64;no.com" target="_blank">no&#64;no.com</a>&gt; trolled:
&gt; I cringe every time I hear &quot;one swing of the bat&quot;, regardless of the
&gt; context. It can apply to literally every player and virtually every
&gt; situation. There is no bigger &quot;DUH!!!&quot; statement in all of baseball.
&gt; It reflects more a lack of articulateness on the part of the announcer
&gt; than some meaningful comment on the game.

One swing of the bat is only truly significant a handful of times a
game. And only in close games at that.

You're an idiot.

cordially, as always,

rm

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#16: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-12 12:50:44 by Roger Manyard

Craig Richardson &lt;<a href="mailto:richardson&#64;net-venture.com" target="_blank">richardson&#64;net-venture.com</a>&gt; trolled:
&gt; On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 18:16:58 GMT, TheDave? &lt;<a href="mailto:no&#64;no.com" target="_blank">no&#64;no.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; &gt;I cringe every time I hear &quot;one swing of the bat&quot;, regardless of the
&gt; &gt;context. It can apply to literally every player and virtually every
&gt; &gt;situation. There is no bigger &quot;DUH!!!&quot; statement in all of baseball.
&gt; &gt;It reflects more a lack of articulateness on the part of the announcer
&gt; &gt;than some meaningful comment on the game.

&gt; Likewise when the score goes from 5-4 to 5-5 in the top of the fifth
&gt; and the announcer exclaims &quot;We got a new ball game!&quot;. Maybe in 1964,
&gt; one run was a big deal, but not today, especially in what looks to be
&gt; a slugfest.

Nope. When announcers talk about a &quot;new game&quot; they are talking
about a situation where a team comes back from being 4 or 5 runs
down.

You guys are really pathetic. The announcers know far, far more
about the game than any of you ever will.

cordially, as always,

rm

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#17: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-12 14:54:18 by Roger Manyard

David Emerling &lt;<a href="mailto:demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com" target="_blank">demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com</a>&gt; trolled:

&gt; Yelling &quot;Hey batter, batter, ... hey, batter, batter. SWING!&quot; is
&gt; Bush League.

Well, we never pretended to play anything other than &quot;bush league.&quot;
How about you?

&gt; It's not about robbing the kids of the fun in the game, it's about
&gt; teaching them to focus on the GAME, not the members of the other
&gt; team. It's about respecting the game.

Respecting the game is about having fun.

&gt; FUN is learning the game and playing it properly.

Yawohl, mein herr!

&gt; FUN is *not* about coming up with witty phrases and jeering the
&gt; other team.

Not for you, obviously. If you can't measure it and enter it into a
spreadsheet then it shouldn't be part of the game, right?

&gt; You say even the pros have fun. There's no doubt about that. But
&gt; do you think Derek Jeter is out there chattering like a monkey and
&gt; taunting members of the other team with derisive commentary like,
&gt; &quot;C'mon, Randy - throw it in there. This guy can't hit. He's a
&gt; looker!&quot;

Never played with pros, for money. But we did play &quot;bush league&quot;
and we had fun.

&gt; I don't allow that kind of banter.

That's because you're a pro, right?

&gt; If you think I'm robbing the players of their fun by not
&gt; permitting this, then we'll just have to agree to disagree about
&gt; the definition of fun.

It ain't fun when somebody else tells you what is or isn't fun.

&gt; I do a lot of umpiring. I consider it unsportsmanlike when one
&gt; team addresses or refers to members of the opposing team in a
&gt; demeaning manner. I don't eject people, I usually just wait for a
&gt; lull in the game and inform the coach that the taunting must
&gt; cease.

Blah, blah, blah...

Bugger off, you're a boor.

cordially, as always,

rm

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#18: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-12 15:23:25 by Will in New Haven

Realto Margarino wrote:
&gt; Craig Richardson &lt;<a href="mailto:richardson&#64;net-venture.com" target="_blank">richardson&#64;net-venture.com</a>&gt; trolled:
&gt; &gt; On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 18:16:58 GMT, TheDave? &lt;<a href="mailto:no&#64;no.com" target="_blank">no&#64;no.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;I cringe every time I hear &quot;one swing of the bat&quot;, regardless of the
&gt; &gt; &gt;context. It can apply to literally every player and virtually every
&gt; &gt; &gt;situation. There is no bigger &quot;DUH!!!&quot; statement in all of baseball.
&gt; &gt; &gt;It reflects more a lack of articulateness on the part of the announcer
&gt; &gt; &gt;than some meaningful comment on the game.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Likewise when the score goes from 5-4 to 5-5 in the top of the fifth
&gt; &gt; and the announcer exclaims &quot;We got a new ball game!&quot;. Maybe in 1964,
&gt; &gt; one run was a big deal, but not today, especially in what looks to be
&gt; &gt; a slugfest.
&gt;
&gt; Nope. When announcers talk about a &quot;new game&quot; they are talking
&gt; about a situation where a team comes back from being 4 or 5 runs
&gt; down.
&gt;
&gt; You guys are really pathetic. The announcers know far, far more
&gt; about the game than any of you ever will.
&gt;
&gt; cordially, as always,
&gt;
&gt; rm

Do you really think &quot;He's only a Triple away from the cycle&quot; shows
their knowledge of the game. Maybe if it's a guy who hits a Triple
occasionally but I heard someone say it when Jorge Posada came to bat.
Announcers can make silly remarks, too. Jorge is one of my favorite
players but Triples are not a specialty of his. Not that it bothers me
that much.

Also, &quot;the all-important loss column&quot; is a sports commentator's cliche
I can do without, especiially before late August.

I gotta agree with you about chatter, although I steered kids I coached
and managed toward the &quot;cheerful support for our guys&quot; and away from
mean-spirited commentary. When I umpired, I ran ONE kid for racist and
insulting comments in many, many years. I also barred one set of
parents from coming to games because they both thought that the racial
composition of the other team was a matter of loud and obnoxious
yelling. Their KID was embarrassed by them.

If it isn't fun, they will go play video games and the diamonds will be
empty.

Will in New Haven

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#19: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-12 17:47:27 by pgw

David Emerling wrote:
&gt; The second worse thing to tell a pitcher is &quot;Let them hit it!&quot; I would
&gt; rather say, &quot;Force them to swing the bat.&quot; There's a difference. Telling a
&gt; 10-yr-old pitcher to &quot;Let them hit it&quot; is really not the message you want to
&gt; send.

My line is always, &quot;Make them hit it.&quot;

I don't disagree with what you say, only to say that for _me_, &quot;chatter&quot;
makes the game fun. When I'm in the infield, I chatter.

OTOH, I don't tell anyone else they need to.

pgw

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#20: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-13 06:35:22 by Craig Richardson

On 12 Jul 2006 06:33:48 -0700, &quot;Will in New Haven&quot;
&lt;<a href="mailto:bill.reich&#64;taylorandfrancis.com" target="_blank">bill.reich&#64;taylorandfrancis.com</a>&gt; wrote:

[piggybacking]

&gt;Realto Margarino wrote:
&gt;&gt; Craig Richardson &lt;<a href="mailto:richardson&#64;net-venture.com" target="_blank">richardson&#64;net-venture.com</a>&gt; trolled:
&gt;&gt; &gt; On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 18:16:58 GMT, TheDave? &lt;<a href="mailto:no&#64;no.com" target="_blank">no&#64;no.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;I cringe every time I hear &quot;one swing of the bat&quot;, regardless of the
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;context. It can apply to literally every player and virtually every
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;situation. There is no bigger &quot;DUH!!!&quot; statement in all of baseball.
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;It reflects more a lack of articulateness on the part of the announcer
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;than some meaningful comment on the game.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; Likewise when the score goes from 5-4 to 5-5 in the top of the fifth
&gt;&gt; &gt; and the announcer exclaims &quot;We got a new ball game!&quot;. Maybe in 1964,
&gt;&gt; &gt; one run was a big deal, but not today, especially in what looks to be
&gt;&gt; &gt; a slugfest.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Nope. When announcers talk about a &quot;new game&quot; they are talking
&gt;&gt; about a situation where a team comes back from being 4 or 5 runs
&gt;&gt; down.

Note that I agree fully with RLM here, except for one thing... Some
announcers really /do/ talk about a &quot;new game&quot; as soon as the trailing
team ties it up. At least, Dave Niehaus and Ron Fairly do. And since
I've listened to them - oh, infinitely - more than RLM has, he has no
alternative but to /again/ bow down to my superior baseball
experience.

--Craig

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#21: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-13 12:49:29 by Roger Manyard

Craig Richardson &lt;<a href="mailto:richardson&#64;net-venture.com" target="_blank">richardson&#64;net-venture.com</a>&gt; trolled:
&gt; &gt;Realto Margarino wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Nope. When announcers talk about a &quot;new game&quot; they are talking
&gt; &gt;&gt; about a situation where a team comes back from being 4 or 5 runs
&gt; &gt;&gt; down.

&gt; Note that I agree fully with RLM here, except for one thing... Some

It's rm, dipshit.

&gt; announcers really /do/ talk about a &quot;new game&quot; as soon as the
&gt; trailing team ties it up. At least, Dave Niehaus and Ron Fairly
&gt; do.

No, they don't.

&gt; And since I've listened to them - oh, infinitely - more than

We get Mariners games out here, dipshit.

&gt; RLM has, he has no alternative but to /again/ bow down to my

rm, again.

G'nite Wanda,

cordially, as always,

rm

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#22: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-13 16:28:13 by rrhersh

Ryan Robbins wrote:
&gt; &quot;David Emerling&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com" target="_blank">demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:oVUsg.30454$<a href="mailto:Eh1.21123&#64;tornado.ohiordc.rr.com..." target="_blank">Eh1.21123&#64;tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...</a>
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; You say even the pros have fun. There's no doubt about that. But do you
&gt; &gt; think Derek Jeter is out there chattering like a monkey and taunting
&gt; &gt; members of the other team with derisive commentary like, &quot;C'mon, Randy -
&gt; &gt; throw it in there. This guy can't hit. He's a looker!&quot;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I don't allow that kind of banter.
&gt;
&gt; This reminds me of Carl Yastrzemski's autobiography from the late-80s or
&gt; early 90s, in which he mentions how once you get to the minors you simply do
&gt; not, under any circumstances, engage in any form of chatter.

I routinely attend A and AA minor league games, usually sitting where I
would easily hear any chatter that might occur. I don't recall ever
noticing any. There is communication about things like the runner from
first running on the pitch, but not the sort of chatter being discussed
here.

This is, however, a relatively recent development. There is strong
anecdotal evidence that, say, a hundred years ago this went on
frequently even on the major league level. Think of John McGraw of Ty
Cobb. This is a matter of ideology. Formerly chatter (even openly
abusive chatter) was considered an acceptable--even desirable--part of
the game. Now it is considered bush. We can imagine the same
transformation occuring with arguments between the manager and the
umpire. Fifty years from now this might be something that old-timers
describe to dumbfounded youngsters.

Richard R. Hershberger

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#23: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-13 16:39:27 by no

&gt; Richard R. Hershberger wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; You say even the pros have fun. There's no doubt about that. But
&gt; &gt; &gt; do you think Derek Jeter is out there chattering like a monkey
&gt; &gt; &gt; and taunting members of the other team with derisive commentary
&gt; &gt; &gt; like, &quot;C'mon, Randy - throw it in there. This guy can't hit. He's
&gt; &gt; &gt; a looker!&quot;
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; I don't allow that kind of banter.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; This reminds me of Carl Yastrzemski's autobiography from the
&gt; &gt; late-80s or early 90s, in which he mentions how once you get to the
&gt; &gt; minors you simply do not, under any circumstances, engage in any
&gt; &gt; form of chatter.
&gt;
&gt; I routinely attend A and AA minor league games, usually sitting where
&gt; I would easily hear any chatter that might occur. I don't recall ever
&gt; noticing any. There is communication about things like the runner
&gt; from first running on the pitch, but not the sort of chatter being
&gt; discussed here.
&gt;
&gt; This is, however, a relatively recent development. There is strong
&gt; anecdotal evidence that, say, a hundred years ago this went on
&gt; frequently even on the major league level. Think of John McGraw of Ty
&gt; Cobb. This is a matter of ideology. Formerly chatter (even openly
&gt; abusive chatter) was considered an acceptable--even desirable--part of
&gt; the game. Now it is considered bush. We can imagine the same
&gt; transformation occuring with arguments between the manager and the
&gt; umpire. Fifty years from now this might be something that old-timers
&gt; describe to dumbfounded youngsters.

I have heard said that some catchers will say things to the batter to
try to distract them, but loud enough for only the batter to hear.

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#24: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-14 12:46:19 by onyx_hokie

[ Tue, 11 Jul 2006 20:53:52 GMT ]
[ Tarkus | <a href="mailto:karnevil9&#64;atlantabraves.net" target="_blank">karnevil9&#64;atlantabraves.net</a> ]
[ &lt;scdmx785p3dw$<a href="mailto:.dlg&#64;tarkus.karnevil9.com" target="_blank">.dlg&#64;tarkus.karnevil9.com</a>&gt; ]

:Pitchers.bat found - delete dh.sys (Y/y)?

Automatic.out found - force NL to evolve? (Y/y)

--
Bryan S. Slick, onyx_hokie at yahoo dot com

&quot;Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.&quot;

(Salvor Hardin in 'Foundation', Isaac Asimov)

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#25: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-14 23:00:47 by David Emerling

&quot;TheDave©&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no&#64;no.com" target="_blank">no&#64;no.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:zWstg.18$<a href="mailto:Xc7.1&#64;fe06.highwinds-media.phx..." target="_blank">Xc7.1&#64;fe06.highwinds-media.phx...</a>
&gt;&gt; Richard R. Hershberger wrote:
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; You say even the pros have fun. There's no doubt about that. But
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; do you think Derek Jeter is out there chattering like a monkey
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; and taunting members of the other team with derisive commentary
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; like, &quot;C'mon, Randy - throw it in there. This guy can't hit. He's
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; a looker!&quot;
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; I don't allow that kind of banter.
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; This reminds me of Carl Yastrzemski's autobiography from the
&gt;&gt; &gt; late-80s or early 90s, in which he mentions how once you get to the
&gt;&gt; &gt; minors you simply do not, under any circumstances, engage in any
&gt;&gt; &gt; form of chatter.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I routinely attend A and AA minor league games, usually sitting where
&gt;&gt; I would easily hear any chatter that might occur. I don't recall ever
&gt;&gt; noticing any. There is communication about things like the runner
&gt;&gt; from first running on the pitch, but not the sort of chatter being
&gt;&gt; discussed here.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; This is, however, a relatively recent development. There is strong
&gt;&gt; anecdotal evidence that, say, a hundred years ago this went on
&gt;&gt; frequently even on the major league level. Think of John McGraw of Ty
&gt;&gt; Cobb. This is a matter of ideology. Formerly chatter (even openly
&gt;&gt; abusive chatter) was considered an acceptable--even desirable--part of
&gt;&gt; the game. Now it is considered bush. We can imagine the same
&gt;&gt; transformation occuring with arguments between the manager and the
&gt;&gt; umpire. Fifty years from now this might be something that old-timers
&gt;&gt; describe to dumbfounded youngsters.
&gt;
&gt; I have heard said that some catchers will say things to the batter to
&gt; try to distract them, but loud enough for only the batter to hear.

There is no way the catcher can something to the batter that the plate
umpire cannot hear. In fact, the plate umpire's head is only *inches* from
the cather's head. The umpire is more likely to hear it than the batter.

At the Major League level, it is unlikely the umpires would get involved in
policing chatter. At that level, the players have ways of policing such
matters without the umpire having to get involved.

My comments on this issue are with respect to youth league baseball.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

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#26: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-14 23:05:18 by no

&gt; David Emerling wrote:
&gt; &gt; I have heard said that some catchers will say things to the batter
&gt; &gt; to try to distract them, but loud enough for only the batter to
&gt; &gt; hear.
&gt;
&gt; There is no way the catcher can something to the batter that the
&gt; plate umpire cannot hear. In fact, the plate umpire's head is only
&gt; inches from the cather's head. The umpire is more likely to hear it
&gt; than the batter.

Ok, I guess I should have included the umpire as he's right there,
also. What I meant was no other players on the field or or in the
dugout or fans in the stands.

&gt; My comments on this issue are with respect to youth league baseball.

Understood.

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#27: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-14 23:08:43 by David Emerling

&quot;Paul G. Wenthold&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:pgw&#64;purdue.edu" target="_blank">pgw&#64;purdue.edu</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:e935is$rn7$<a href="mailto:1&#64;mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu..." target="_blank">1&#64;mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu...</a>
&gt; David Emerling wrote:
&gt;&gt; The second worse thing to tell a pitcher is &quot;Let them hit it!&quot; I would
&gt;&gt; rather say, &quot;Force them to swing the bat.&quot; There's a difference. Telling
&gt;&gt; a 10-yr-old pitcher to &quot;Let them hit it&quot; is really not the message you
&gt;&gt; want to send.
&gt;
&gt; My line is always, &quot;Make them hit it.&quot;
&gt;
&gt; I don't disagree with what you say, only to say that for _me_, &quot;chatter&quot;
&gt; makes the game fun. When I'm in the infield, I chatter.
&gt;
&gt; OTOH, I don't tell anyone else they need to.
&gt;
&gt; pgw

Maybe we should define &quot;chatter.&quot;

To me, it's a constant, non-stop, meaningless series of nearly
unintelligible drivel that has absolutely nothing to do with the game. It's
almost as if the person that is doing the chattering doesn't even expect
anybody to listen to him ... almost as if he's doing it to hear himself
chatter.

If all the chatter is encouragement to his fellow players - I really
wouldn't have a problem with it other than the fact that I would rather have
the fielder focus more on the game and stop yapping so much. If you have
something important to say - say it. If you want to occasionally yell some
encouragement to a teammate - that's fine.

I think it crosses the line when the chatter seems to be directed to members
of the opposition with demeaning commentary about their inability to hit,
pitch, or play the game, in general. Or, if the purpose just seems to be an
attempt to distract members of the other team. That is Bush League!

I don't allow my baserunners to clap their hands wildly while taking a
leadoff as is often very common among younger players. The kids don't know
that it is inappropriate unless a coach TEACHES them that it shouldn't be
done.

I don't allow my batters, when taking a pitch, to wave their bat wildly in
front of the catcher's face, neither. If you want to fake a bunt and take
the pitch - fine - but there is no need to act like a fool when doing it.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

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#28: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-15 00:08:00 by Roger Manyard

David Emerling &lt;<a href="mailto:demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com" target="_blank">demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com</a>&gt; trolled:

&gt; If all the chatter is encouragement to his fellow players - I
&gt; really wouldn't have a problem with it other than the fact that I
&gt; would rather have the fielder focus more on the game and stop
&gt; yapping so much.

Chatter does not, in any way, interfere with a player's &quot;focus&quot; on
the game. If anything, it helps focus. You really do not
understand sport, do you?

cordially, as always,

rm

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#29: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-15 05:50:22 by David Emerling

&quot;Realto Margarino&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:rm&#64;youasked.org" target="_blank">rm&#64;youasked.org</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:4BUtg.243544$<a href="mailto:lC7.156489&#64;fe01.news.easynews.com..." target="_blank">lC7.156489&#64;fe01.news.easynews.com...</a>
&gt; David Emerling &lt;<a href="mailto:demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com" target="_blank">demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com</a>&gt; trolled:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; If all the chatter is encouragement to his fellow players - I
&gt;&gt; really wouldn't have a problem with it other than the fact that I
&gt;&gt; would rather have the fielder focus more on the game and stop
&gt;&gt; yapping so much.
&gt;
&gt; Chatter does not, in any way, interfere with a player's &quot;focus&quot; on
&gt; the game. If anything, it helps focus. You really do not
&gt; understand sport, do you?
&gt;
&gt; cordially, as always,
&gt;
&gt; rm

All I can say is that as the level of baseball goes up, the chatter goes
down. I imagine the players mature above the level of t-ball mentality at
some point. I'll let that reality speak for itself and you can draw your own
conclusions. I'll draw mine.

I imagine this is why the visitors do so &quot;well&quot; at the noisy stadiums of
their opponents in football. I imagine that chatter and screaming allows
golfers and tennis players to focus better, huh?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

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#30: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-15 06:17:25 by Roger Manyard

David Emerling &lt;<a href="mailto:demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com" target="_blank">demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com</a>&gt; trolled:
&gt; &quot;Realto Margarino&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:rm&#64;youasked.org" target="_blank">rm&#64;youasked.org</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt; David Emerling &lt;<a href="mailto:demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com" target="_blank">demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com</a>&gt; trolled:

&gt; &gt;&gt; If all the chatter is encouragement to his fellow players - I
&gt; &gt;&gt; really wouldn't have a problem with it other than the fact that I
&gt; &gt;&gt; would rather have the fielder focus more on the game and stop
&gt; &gt;&gt; yapping so much.

&gt; &gt; Chatter does not, in any way, interfere with a player's &quot;focus&quot;
&gt; &gt; on the game. If anything, it helps focus. You really do not
&gt; &gt; understand sport, do you?

&gt; All I can say is that as the level of baseball goes up, the
&gt; chatter goes down.

As the level of baseball goes up, playing for fun goes down and
playing for money goes up.

&gt; I imagine the players mature above the level of t-ball mentality at
&gt; some point.

Is there chatter in t-ball? Never been there.

&gt; I'll let that reality speak for itself and you can draw your own
&gt; conclusions. I'll draw mine.

Chatter is fun for some people, but not you, obviously. You are
probably just not very good at it, and you resent those of us who
are. In any case, we are not the only person here who is saying
chatter is fun. And if you are playing baseball for fun, then you
might as well have fun doing it. We have never played for money,
but if we did, and chatter was frowned upon, then we wouldn't
chatter and it wouldn't matter because we wouldn't be playing for
fun anyway.

&gt; I imagine this is why the visitors do so &quot;well&quot; at the noisy
&gt; stadiums of their opponents in football. I imagine that chatter
&gt; and screaming allows golfers and tennis players to focus better,
&gt; huh?

&quot;Trash talk&quot; is common in football, hockey, boxing and basketball.
Perhaps those athletes still like to have fun.

cordially, as always,

rm

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#31: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-15 07:03:22 by David Emerling

&quot;Realto Margarino&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:rm&#64;youasked.org" target="_blank">rm&#64;youasked.org</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:p%Ztg.227846$<a href="mailto:wA1.175348&#64;fe03.news.easynews.com..." target="_blank">wA1.175348&#64;fe03.news.easynews.com...</a>
&gt; David Emerling &lt;<a href="mailto:demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com" target="_blank">demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com</a>&gt; trolled:
&gt;&gt; &quot;Realto Margarino&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:rm&#64;youasked.org" target="_blank">rm&#64;youasked.org</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; &gt; David Emerling &lt;<a href="mailto:demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com" target="_blank">demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com</a>&gt; trolled:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; If all the chatter is encouragement to his fellow players - I
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; really wouldn't have a problem with it other than the fact that I
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; would rather have the fielder focus more on the game and stop
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; yapping so much.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; Chatter does not, in any way, interfere with a player's &quot;focus&quot;
&gt;&gt; &gt; on the game. If anything, it helps focus. You really do not
&gt;&gt; &gt; understand sport, do you?
&gt;
&gt;&gt; All I can say is that as the level of baseball goes up, the
&gt;&gt; chatter goes down.
&gt;
&gt; As the level of baseball goes up, playing for fun goes down and
&gt; playing for money goes up.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; I imagine the players mature above the level of t-ball mentality at
&gt;&gt; some point.
&gt;
&gt; Is there chatter in t-ball? Never been there.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; I'll let that reality speak for itself and you can draw your own
&gt;&gt; conclusions. I'll draw mine.
&gt;
&gt; Chatter is fun for some people, but not you, obviously. You are
&gt; probably just not very good at it, and you resent those of us who
&gt; are. In any case, we are not the only person here who is saying
&gt; chatter is fun. And if you are playing baseball for fun, then you
&gt; might as well have fun doing it. We have never played for money,
&gt; but if we did, and chatter was frowned upon, then we wouldn't
&gt; chatter and it wouldn't matter because we wouldn't be playing for
&gt; fun anyway.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; I imagine this is why the visitors do so &quot;well&quot; at the noisy
&gt;&gt; stadiums of their opponents in football. I imagine that chatter
&gt;&gt; and screaming allows golfers and tennis players to focus better,
&gt;&gt; huh?
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Trash talk&quot; is common in football, hockey, boxing and basketball.
&gt; Perhaps those athletes still like to have fun.
&gt;
&gt; cordially, as always,
&gt;
&gt; rm

Have you ever coached a youth league team?

You have to purchase uniforms and equipment. There's insurance, league fees,
and tournament fees. The teams travel to tournaments and the parents
frequently have to take off work. They stay at hotels. They eat at
restaurants. Traveling expenses are steep.

You'd be surprised at how much money is involved - so much so that many
teams have to do considerable fund raising because of the cost prohibitive
nature of operating the team. Sure, we're not talking about the $25-million
that Roger Clemens makes for playing *half* a season. But everything is
relative. It is a financial burden for many families who have a child who is
talented and wants to play a lot of baseball.

Consequently, the coaches have an obligation to give these families their
money's worth. In effect, the families of the players are like stockholders
in the team.

The best a coach can do is conduct productive practices, teach the players
the proper way to play the game, and make it fun in the process. Some of
these kids want to progress in baseball and play for their high school ...
or for a college ... or maybe become a professional. The odds are slim but a
good coach should establish a foundation to allow the player to take his
baseball talents to the highest level to which the child aspires.

Silly chatter is not part of that process.

You completely miss the point. You can't imagine that it can actually be fun
to be a talented baseball player. You make all these wisecracks about
robotic children.

You can teach a kid how to field a groundball and make a good throw so he
can experience the satisfaction of a job well done, or, you can teach witty
and silly phrases to chatter while he boots groundball after groundball and
tosses the ball over the first baseman's head. Yeah, that's really fun!

I believe YOU are the one who is clueless.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

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#32: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-15 08:51:56 by Ryan Robbins

&quot;Realto Margarino&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:rm&#64;youasked.org" target="_blank">rm&#64;youasked.org</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:p%Ztg.227846$<a href="mailto:wA1.175348&#64;fe03.news.easynews.com..." target="_blank">wA1.175348&#64;fe03.news.easynews.com...</a>
&gt;And if you are playing baseball for fun, then you
&gt; might as well have fun doing it.

And you can maximize your fun by playing the game properly, which will help
you succeed, leading to more fun.

The game is baseball, not seeing who can talk the fastest.

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#33: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-15 19:41:51 by Roger Manyard

Ryan Robbins &lt;<a href="mailto:redbird007&#64;verizon.net" target="_blank">redbird007&#64;verizon.net</a>&gt; trolled:
&gt; &quot;Realto Margarino&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:rm&#64;youasked.org" target="_blank">rm&#64;youasked.org</a>&gt; wrote in message

&gt; &gt;And if you are playing baseball for fun, then you might as well
&gt; &gt;have fun doing it.

&gt; And you can maximize your fun by playing the game properly, which
&gt; will help you succeed, leading to more fun.

Chatter has _never_ cost anyone anything. If chatter is fun, and if
you are playing the game for fun, then the maximum fun you'll get is
with chatter.

cordially, as always,

rm

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#34: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-16 01:23:58 by David Emerling

&quot;Realto Margarino&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:rm&#64;youasked.org" target="_blank">rm&#64;youasked.org</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:zN9ug.259449$<a href="mailto:cd2.8355&#64;fe06.news.easynews.com..." target="_blank">cd2.8355&#64;fe06.news.easynews.com...</a>
&gt; Ryan Robbins &lt;<a href="mailto:redbird007&#64;verizon.net" target="_blank">redbird007&#64;verizon.net</a>&gt; trolled:
&gt;&gt; &quot;Realto Margarino&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:rm&#64;youasked.org" target="_blank">rm&#64;youasked.org</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;And if you are playing baseball for fun, then you might as well
&gt;&gt; &gt;have fun doing it.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; And you can maximize your fun by playing the game properly, which
&gt;&gt; will help you succeed, leading to more fun.
&gt;
&gt; Chatter has _never_ cost anyone anything. If chatter is fun, and if
&gt; you are playing the game for fun, then the maximum fun you'll get is
&gt; with chatter.
&gt;
&gt; cordially, as always,
&gt;
&gt; rm

What if eating an ice cream cone in centerfield were fun?

What if taking drugs were fun?

Hedonist!

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

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#35: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-16 01:32:38 by sfb

cordially, as always,

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#36: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-16 01:41:56 by Roger Manyard

David Emerling &lt;<a href="mailto:demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com" target="_blank">demerlinHATESPAM&#64;midsouth.rr.com</a>&gt; trolled:
&gt; &quot;Realto Margarino&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:rm&#64;youasked.org" target="_blank">rm&#64;youasked.org</a>&gt; wrote in message

&gt; &gt; Chatter has _never_ cost anyone anything. If chatter is fun,
&gt; &gt; and if you are playing the game for fun, then the maximum fun
&gt; &gt; you'll get is with chatter.

&gt; What if eating an ice cream cone in centerfield were fun?

Eating an ice cream cone while you're trying to play baseball is not
fun. Try it sometime.

&gt; What if taking drugs were fun?

Ask Bonds. He is about to be indicted for perjury and tax evasion.
That's worse than Pete Rose. Stat fans should stand up and take
notice. Your hero is crossing the Rose line. Pretty soon you're
going to have to shit on Bonds like you do Rose. It should be fun
to watch you weasel. In fact it is fun now watching you weasel.

cordially, as always,

rm

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#37: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-17 20:19:42 by al019

Well, other than calling the winner of the World Series the &quot;World
Champion&quot; instead of &quot;World Series Champion&quot; the one that comes to mind
that I've occasionally heard from announcers is &quot;frozen rope.&quot; I THINK
it's supposed to describe a liner, since that's usually what's happening
when I hear the phrase, but then why can't they call it what it is.

Also, can I have a dollar for every time, with the bases loaded and a 3-0
count on the batter I've heard &quot;no place to put him!&quot; There IS a place he
is put with another ball--first base, as in the rules! It just so happens
that a run scores at the same time.

Brad

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#38: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-17 20:21:54 by al019

I just thought of another one. In a game in which one batter has just
happened to score all of his team's RBI's, sometimes an anouncer will say
that &quot;all the runs came off his bat.&quot; Unless they were all scored on solo
home runs, this is simply not true. Someone's bat was responsible for
putting the other runs on base!

Brad

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#39: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-17 20:25:00 by al019

Here's one that must be intensily disliked by third base coaches
everywhere. If a runner runs past third base and is just barely safe at
home, he &quot;hustled.&quot; But if he is out on a close play at home, then the
third base coach made a mistake in sending him!

Actually maybe that's not so much a cliche as a hypocrisy.

Brad

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#40: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-17 21:33:29 by raj

<a href="mailto:al019&#64;chebucto.ns.ca" target="_blank">al019&#64;chebucto.ns.ca</a> (Brad Filippone) writes:

&gt;Also, can I have a dollar for every time, with the bases loaded and a
&gt;3-0 count on the batter I've heard &quot;no place to put him!&quot; There IS a
&gt;place he is put with another ball--first base, as in the rules! It
&gt;just so happens that a run scores at the same time.

There's even another cliche to use when that happens: &quot;better four
balls for one base than one ball for four bases&quot;. In this case you
could change it to &quot;better four balls for one run than one ball for
four runs&quot;, but the same general idea holds. ISTR that Leo Mazzone's
book on pitching discusses this issue and makes essentially that
point; you're better off walking in the run (assuming that it's not
the bottom of the ninth in a tied game or something) than serving up a
BP fastball and watching the batter clear the bases.

--
Roger Moore | Master of Meaningless Trivia | (<a href="mailto:raj&#64;alumni.caltech.edu" target="_blank">raj&#64;alumni.caltech.edu</a>)
There's no point in questioning authority if you don't listen to the answers.

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#41: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-17 21:37:16 by rrhersh

Brad Filippone wrote:

&gt; Well, other than calling the winner of the World Series the &quot;World
&gt; Champion&quot; instead of &quot;World Series Champion&quot; ...

Regardless of the official terminology MLB uses, this is an old and
established usage. The Chicago Tribune of October 26. 1885 reports on
an interview of Albert Spalding regarding a dispute over whether the
St. Louis Browns or the Chicago White Stockings were &quot;the world's
champions&quot;. If you prefer something from the 20th century, the Chicago
Tribune of October 12, 1924 reported on the series bonus split of the
Washington Senators, the &quot;world's champions of 1924.&quot; ($5,959.64 per
player, if you were wondering.)

To understand the usage, you have to go back to the 1870s. When the
National League formed in 1876 it had all the best teams: when Chicago
won the pennant that year they were not only the National League
champions, they were the national champions. There was no distinction
between the two. When the American Association formed in 1882 and got
legitimately competative a couple of years later this presented a
linguistic challenge. The National League champion was no longer the
top champion team by default. So what to call the winner of a
post-season series between the NL and the AA pennant winners? It would
be confusing to try to distinguish between the National League champion
and the national champion. So in keeping with 19th century
journalistic hyperbole, they cranked things up a notch and called the
winner the world champion. In the 19th century this was informal
journalistic usage, but when the World Series was revived in the 20th
century the terminology was revived with it. I don't know when MLB
changed the language to &quot;World Series Champion&quot; but regardless, this
imposes no obligation on the rest of us to follow along.

Richard R. Hershberger

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#42: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-17 22:14:36 by Tom MacIntyre

On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 18:25:00 +0000 (UTC), <a href="mailto:al019&#64;chebucto.ns.ca" target="_blank">al019&#64;chebucto.ns.ca</a> (Brad
Filippone) wrote:

&gt;Here's one that must be intensily disliked by third base coaches
&gt;everywhere. If a runner runs past third base and is just barely safe at
&gt;home, he &quot;hustled.&quot; But if he is out on a close play at home, then the
&gt;third base coach made a mistake in sending him!
&gt;
&gt;Actually maybe that's not so much a cliche as a hypocrisy.
&gt;
&gt;Brad

It's all about results and hindsight...determined is when you succeed,
stubborn is before you do and it looks unlikely, foolish, etc., is
when you fail.

Tom

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#43: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-17 23:02:52 by richard

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153165035.990967.256490&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153165035.990967.256490&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com</a>&gt; on 17
Jul 2006 12:37:16 -0700, <a href="mailto:rrhersh&#64;acme.com" target="_blank">rrhersh&#64;acme.com</a> (Richard R. Hershberger) wrote:

&gt; So in keeping with 19th century
&gt; journalistic hyperbole, they cranked things up a notch and called the
&gt; winner the world champion. In the 19th century this was informal
&gt; journalistic usage, but when the World Series was revived in the 20th
&gt; century the terminology was revived with it. I don't know when MLB
&gt; changed the language to &quot;World Series Champion&quot; but regardless, this
&gt; imposes no obligation on the rest of us to follow along.

For most of the last half-century, there has been good pro baseball
played outside of MLB - perhaps more like the difference between NL and
AA in the 19th century than NL and AL in the 20th - and regarding the
MLB champion as an undisputed world champion has been generally unfair.
I think that the increasing recognition of Asian baseball is the main
reason that the usage has changed.

--
Richard Gadsden
&quot;I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death
your right to say it&quot; - Attributed to Voltaire

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#44: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-18 01:28:44 by raj

<a href="mailto:al019&#64;chebucto.ns.ca" target="_blank">al019&#64;chebucto.ns.ca</a> (Brad Filippone) writes:

&gt;Here's one that must be intensily disliked by third base coaches
&gt;everywhere. If a runner runs past third base and is just barely safe at
&gt;home, he &quot;hustled.&quot; But if he is out on a close play at home, then the
&gt;third base coach made a mistake in sending him!

I don't think that they always call things that way. If the runner
represents and important run and it's the third out, the commentators
will say &quot;you have to send the runner in that situation&quot;, and they'll
be right, too. Sometimes they'll even criticize when a run scores on
a close play with none or one out, saying that it's dumb to make a
risky play when the runner still has a good chance of scoring on a
hit, ground ball, or sac fly.

--
Roger Moore | Master of Meaningless Trivia | (<a href="mailto:raj&#64;alumni.caltech.edu" target="_blank">raj&#64;alumni.caltech.edu</a>)
There's no point in questioning authority if you don't listen to the answers.

Report this message

#45: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-18 01:59:35 by David Marc Nieporent

In article &lt;e9gkbu$pge$<a href="mailto:15&#64;Kil-nws-1.UCIS.Dal.Ca" target="_blank">15&#64;Kil-nws-1.UCIS.Dal.Ca</a>&gt;,
<a href="mailto:al019&#64;chebucto.ns.ca" target="_blank">al019&#64;chebucto.ns.ca</a> (Brad Filippone) wrote:

&gt;Also, can I have a dollar for every time, with the bases loaded and a 3-0
&gt;count on the batter I've heard &quot;no place to put him!&quot; There IS a place he
&gt;is put with another ball--first base, as in the rules! It just so happens
&gt;that a run scores at the same time.

Gee, if you're in a car with someone trying to park at the mall to do some
last minute Christmas shopping, and the driver says, &quot;I don't see any
parking spaces. Do you?&quot;, do you respond with, &quot;Yeah, there's lots of
them. They all have cars in them, but the spaces are there!&quot;

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#46: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-18 03:16:24 by Steve Cutchen

Pick one...

&quot;The bases were drunk, and I painted the black with my best yakker. But
blue squeezed me, and I went full. I came back with my heater, but the
stick flares one the other way and the chalk flies for two bases. Three
earnies! Next thing I know, skipper hooks me and I'm snipping suds with
the clubby.&quot; -- Yankee pitcher Ed Lynch

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#47: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-18 15:25:24 by rrhersh

Richard Gadsden wrote:
&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153165035.990967.256490&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153165035.990967.256490&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com</a>&gt; on 17
&gt; Jul 2006 12:37:16 -0700, <a href="mailto:rrhersh&#64;acme.com" target="_blank">rrhersh&#64;acme.com</a> (Richard R. Hershberger) wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; So in keeping with 19th century
&gt; &gt; journalistic hyperbole, they cranked things up a notch and called the
&gt; &gt; winner the world champion. In the 19th century this was informal
&gt; &gt; journalistic usage, but when the World Series was revived in the 20th
&gt; &gt; century the terminology was revived with it. I don't know when MLB
&gt; &gt; changed the language to &quot;World Series Champion&quot; but regardless, this
&gt; &gt; imposes no obligation on the rest of us to follow along.
&gt;
&gt; For most of the last half-century, there has been good pro baseball
&gt; played outside of MLB - perhaps more like the difference between NL and
&gt; AA in the 19th century than NL and AL in the 20th - and regarding the
&gt; MLB champion as an undisputed world champion has been generally unfair.
&gt; I think that the increasing recognition of Asian baseball is the main
&gt; reason that the usage has changed.

I expect you are right, and I would love to see some sort of
post-post-season championship series between the WS champion and an
Asian champion. I am merely out that &quot;world champion&quot; is established
usage, even if technically incorrect. This is a linguistic point more
than a baseball argument.

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#48: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-18 16:13:44 by James Allen

TheDave=A9 wrote:
&gt; I cringe every time I hear &quot;one swing of the bat&quot;, regardless of the
&gt; context. It can apply to literally every player and virtually every
&gt; situation. There is no bigger &quot;DUH!!!&quot; statement in all of baseball.
&gt; It reflects more a lack of articulateness on the part of the announcer
&gt; than some meaningful comment on the game.

Let's see...

I'm tired of hearing about a player doing a good job when he &quot;hits the
ball the other way&quot; to get a runner from second to third. If you can
find a hitter who, at any time, is intentionally trying to ground out
to the second base, let me know about him, OK? I would think trying to
get a single that scores the run would be a more desired objective. I
also detest the implication that a right handed hitter pulling the ball
(imagine that!) to the left side (thus not advancing the runner) has
somehow failed his team, no so much for the ground out, but that he hit
it to the wrong place.

Here another good one: when announcers are so astonished that a player
who just made a great defensive play to end an inning leads off the
next half-inning, as if it were a million to one shot of such a thing
occurring.

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#49: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-18 16:25:39 by rrhersh

James Allen wrote:
&gt; TheDave=A9 wrote:
&gt; &gt; I cringe every time I hear &quot;one swing of the bat&quot;, regardless of the
&gt; &gt; context. It can apply to literally every player and virtually every
&gt; &gt; situation. There is no bigger &quot;DUH!!!&quot; statement in all of baseball.
&gt; &gt; It reflects more a lack of articulateness on the part of the announcer
&gt; &gt; than some meaningful comment on the game.
&gt;
&gt; Let's see...
&gt;
&gt; I'm tired of hearing about a player doing a good job when he &quot;hits the
&gt; ball the other way&quot; to get a runner from second to third. If you can
&gt; find a hitter who, at any time, is intentionally trying to ground out
&gt; to the second base, let me know about him, OK? I would think trying to
&gt; get a single that scores the run would be a more desired objective. I
&gt; also detest the implication that a right handed hitter pulling the ball
&gt; (imagine that!) to the left side (thus not advancing the runner) has
&gt; somehow failed his team, no so much for the ground out, but that he hit
&gt; it to the wrong place.

The premise is not that the batter isn't trying to get a hit, but that
by hitting to the right side the batter creates the secondary
possibility of advancing the runner even if the batter is thrown out.
I have no idea how much batters actively try to do this, but the
premise is at least plausible.

Richard R. Hershberger

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#50: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-18 16:53:13 by James Allen

Richard R. Hershberger wrote:
&gt; James Allen wrote:
&gt; &gt; TheDave=A9 wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; I cringe every time I hear &quot;one swing of the bat&quot;, regardless of the
&gt; &gt; &gt; context. It can apply to literally every player and virtually every
&gt; &gt; &gt; situation. There is no bigger &quot;DUH!!!&quot; statement in all of baseball.
&gt; &gt; &gt; It reflects more a lack of articulateness on the part of the announcer
&gt; &gt; &gt; than some meaningful comment on the game.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Let's see...
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I'm tired of hearing about a player doing a good job when he &quot;hits the
&gt; &gt; ball the other way&quot; to get a runner from second to third. If you can
&gt; &gt; find a hitter who, at any time, is intentionally trying to ground out
&gt; &gt; to the second base, let me know about him, OK? I would think trying to
&gt; &gt; get a single that scores the run would be a more desired objective. I
&gt; &gt; also detest the implication that a right handed hitter pulling the ball
&gt; &gt; (imagine that!) to the left side (thus not advancing the runner) has
&gt; &gt; somehow failed his team, no so much for the ground out, but that he hit
&gt; &gt; it to the wrong place.
&gt;
&gt; The premise is not that the batter isn't trying to get a hit, but that
&gt; by hitting to the right side the batter creates the secondary
&gt; possibility of advancing the runner even if the batter is thrown out.
&gt; I have no idea how much batters actively try to do this, but the
&gt; premise is at least plausible.
&gt;
&gt; Richard R. Hershberger

It's plausible I suppose, but it just seems stupid in practice. Of
course there are a number of right handed hitters who have a tendency
to hit the other way, which is fine, but I doubt a batter intentionally
changes his normal approach to hitting simply to increase the chances
of advancing a runner on a ground out.

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#51: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-18 17:11:18 by Will in New Haven

James Allen wrote:
&gt; Richard R. Hershberger wrote:
&gt; &gt; James Allen wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; TheDave=A9 wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I cringe every time I hear &quot;one swing of the bat&quot;, regardless of the
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; context. It can apply to literally every player and virtually every
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; situation. There is no bigger &quot;DUH!!!&quot; statement in all of basebal=
l=2E
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; It reflects more a lack of articulateness on the part of the announ=
cer
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; than some meaningful comment on the game.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Let's see...
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; I'm tired of hearing about a player doing a good job when he &quot;hits the
&gt; &gt; &gt; ball the other way&quot; to get a runner from second to third. If you can
&gt; &gt; &gt; find a hitter who, at any time, is intentionally trying to ground out
&gt; &gt; &gt; to the second base, let me know about him, OK? I would think trying to
&gt; &gt; &gt; get a single that scores the run would be a more desired objective. I
&gt; &gt; &gt; also detest the implication that a right handed hitter pulling the ba=
ll
&gt; &gt; &gt; (imagine that!) to the left side (thus not advancing the runner) has
&gt; &gt; &gt; somehow failed his team, no so much for the ground out, but that he h=
it
&gt; &gt; &gt; it to the wrong place.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; The premise is not that the batter isn't trying to get a hit, but that
&gt; &gt; by hitting to the right side the batter creates the secondary
&gt; &gt; possibility of advancing the runner even if the batter is thrown out.
&gt; &gt; I have no idea how much batters actively try to do this, but the
&gt; &gt; premise is at least plausible.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Richard R. Hershberger
&gt;
&gt; It's plausible I suppose, but it just seems stupid in practice. Of
&gt; course there are a number of right handed hitters who have a tendency
&gt; to hit the other way, which is fine, but I doubt a batter intentionally
&gt; changes his normal approach to hitting simply to increase the chances
&gt; of advancing a runner on a ground out.

Getting the ball in the air to right also gives you a better chance to
advance a man on second as going to third on a fly to left is very
risky. The idea that advancing a runner to Third is a great
accomplishment is situational. Using the first out to do so, in a tie
game, in the late innings, it seems like a good result but, as you say,
a hit would be better.=20

Will in New Haven

Report this message

#52: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-18 18:32:20 by Tarkus

On 7/18/2006 7:13:44 AM, James Allen wrote:

&gt; Here another good one: when announcers are so astonished that a player
&gt; who just made a great defensive play to end an inning leads off the
&gt; next half-inning, as if it were a million to one shot of such a thing
&gt; occurring.

Actually, they tend to act like it happens a lot more often than 1/9 of
the time: &quot;Doesn't it seem like the guy who makes a great play to end
the inning always leads off the next inning?&quot; Um no, it doesn't.
--
&quot;At the end of the day, we're the boss. We tell him what to do.
If you want to call me a bad guy, call me a bad guy, not him.&quot;
- Alex Rodriguez, responding to criticism of agent Scott Boras

Now playing: &quot;Dream Theater - Carry That Weight&quot;

Report this message

#53: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-18 18:32:38 by rrhersh

Will in New Haven wrote:
&gt; James Allen wrote:
&gt; &gt; Richard R. Hershberger wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; James Allen wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; TheDave=A9 wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I cringe every time I hear &quot;one swing of the bat&quot;, regardless of =
the
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; context. It can apply to literally every player and virtually ev=
ery
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; situation. There is no bigger &quot;DUH!!!&quot; statement in all of baseb=
all.
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; It reflects more a lack of articulateness on the part of the anno=
uncer
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; than some meaningful comment on the game.
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Let's see...
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I'm tired of hearing about a player doing a good job when he &quot;hits =
the
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; ball the other way&quot; to get a runner from second to third. If you can
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; find a hitter who, at any time, is intentionally trying to ground o=
ut
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to the second base, let me know about him, OK? I would think trying=
to
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; get a single that scores the run would be a more desired objective.=
I
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; also detest the implication that a right handed hitter pulling the =
ball
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; (imagine that!) to the left side (thus not advancing the runner) has
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; somehow failed his team, no so much for the ground out, but that he=
hit
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; it to the wrong place.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; The premise is not that the batter isn't trying to get a hit, but that
&gt; &gt; &gt; by hitting to the right side the batter creates the secondary
&gt; &gt; &gt; possibility of advancing the runner even if the batter is thrown out.
&gt; &gt; &gt; I have no idea how much batters actively try to do this, but the
&gt; &gt; &gt; premise is at least plausible.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Richard R. Hershberger
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; It's plausible I suppose, but it just seems stupid in practice. Of
&gt; &gt; course there are a number of right handed hitters who have a tendency
&gt; &gt; to hit the other way, which is fine, but I doubt a batter intentionally
&gt; &gt; changes his normal approach to hitting simply to increase the chances
&gt; &gt; of advancing a runner on a ground out.
&gt;
&gt; Getting the ball in the air to right also gives you a better chance to
&gt; advance a man on second as going to third on a fly to left is very
&gt; risky. The idea that advancing a runner to Third is a great
&gt; accomplishment is situational. Using the first out to do so, in a tie
&gt; game, in the late innings, it seems like a good result but, as you say,
&gt; a hit would be better.

It seems to me the question is if major league players will change
their batting to try to hit to the right in such a situation, or is
this merely TV color-guy blather? I honestly don't know. I also don't
know how good an idea it is. Presumably the change in batting somewhat
lessens the chance of getting a hit--otherwise he would bat that way
all the time--but this could well be offset by the increased chance of
advancing the runner on an out. Has anyone ever run the numbers on
this?

Richard R. Hershberger

Report this message

#54: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-18 18:48:11 by Seapig

Richard R. Hershberger wrote:
&gt; Will in New Haven wrote:
&gt; &gt; James Allen wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; Richard R. Hershberger wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; James Allen wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; TheDave=A9 wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I cringe every time I hear &quot;one swing of the bat&quot;, regardless o=
f the
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; context. It can apply to literally every player and virtually =
every
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; situation. There is no bigger &quot;DUH!!!&quot; statement in all of bas=
eball.
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; It reflects more a lack of articulateness on the part of the an=
nouncer
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; than some meaningful comment on the game.
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Let's see...
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I'm tired of hearing about a player doing a good job when he &quot;hit=
s the
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; ball the other way&quot; to get a runner from second to third. If you =
can
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; find a hitter who, at any time, is intentionally trying to ground=
out
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to the second base, let me know about him, OK? I would think tryi=
ng to
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; get a single that scores the run would be a more desired objectiv=
e=2E I
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; also detest the implication that a right handed hitter pulling th=
e ball
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; (imagine that!) to the left side (thus not advancing the runner) =
has
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; somehow failed his team, no so much for the ground out, but that =
he hit
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; it to the wrong place.
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The premise is not that the batter isn't trying to get a hit, but t=
hat
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; by hitting to the right side the batter creates the secondary
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; possibility of advancing the runner even if the batter is thrown ou=
t=2E
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I have no idea how much batters actively try to do this, but the
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; premise is at least plausible.
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Richard R. Hershberger
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; It's plausible I suppose, but it just seems stupid in practice. Of
&gt; &gt; &gt; course there are a number of right handed hitters who have a tendency
&gt; &gt; &gt; to hit the other way, which is fine, but I doubt a batter intentional=
ly
&gt; &gt; &gt; changes his normal approach to hitting simply to increase the chances
&gt; &gt; &gt; of advancing a runner on a ground out.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Getting the ball in the air to right also gives you a better chance to
&gt; &gt; advance a man on second as going to third on a fly to left is very
&gt; &gt; risky. The idea that advancing a runner to Third is a great
&gt; &gt; accomplishment is situational. Using the first out to do so, in a tie
&gt; &gt; game, in the late innings, it seems like a good result but, as you say,
&gt; &gt; a hit would be better.
&gt;
&gt; It seems to me the question is if major league players will change
&gt; their batting to try to hit to the right in such a situation, or is
&gt; this merely TV color-guy blather? I honestly don't know. I also don't
&gt; know how good an idea it is. Presumably the change in batting somewhat
&gt; lessens the chance of getting a hit--otherwise he would bat that way
&gt; all the time--but this could well be offset by the increased chance of
&gt; advancing the runner on an out. Has anyone ever run the numbers on
&gt; this?

I've seen a lot of batters return to a dugout full of high-fives after
grounding to second in that situation. That leads me to believe that
they are altering their approach - I'm not sure if it's the smart thing
to do, but it is the &quot;by the book&quot; approach.

Report this message

#55: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-18 18:58:47 by Steve Cutchen

&quot;GOOD EYE!&quot;

&quot;The only compliment i ever got in little leage baseball was, Good Eye
Brian. Oh uh thank you. Good... torso, I saw you doing the trunk
rotations over there. 

Good eye is when your too scared to even consider swinging the bat, the
ball grazes your head at about a hundred miles an hour; good eye
Brian!! Thanks, what did i do? You got out of the way of the
fastball. Oh good, I'm glad I did that, I wasn't gunna, but then I did.
Go team go.&quot;

---Brain Regan

Report this message

#56: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-18 20:04:52 by K2

&quot;Steve Cutchen&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:maxfaq&#64;earthlink.net" target="_blank">maxfaq&#64;earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:180720061158482858%<a href="mailto:maxfaq&#64;earthlink.net..." target="_blank">maxfaq&#64;earthlink.net...</a>
&gt; &quot;GOOD EYE!&quot;
&gt;
&gt; &quot;The only compliment i ever got in little leage baseball was, Good Eye
&gt; Brian. Oh uh thank you. Good... torso, I saw you doing the trunk
&gt; rotations over there.
&gt;
&gt; Good eye is when your too scared to even consider swinging the bat, the
&gt; ball grazes your head at about a hundred miles an hour; good eye
&gt; Brian!! Thanks, what did i do? You got out of the way of the
&gt; fastball. Oh good, I'm glad I did that, I wasn't gunna, but then I did.
&gt; Go team go.&quot;
&gt;
&gt; ---Brain Regan

Playing softball years ago, I took a pitch that wasn't in the zone I was
looking for that was a verrrrrry close ball. Someone in the dugout called
out &quot;Good eye! Good eye!&quot;.
I tipped my cap to them and responded: &quot;G'day to you to mate!&quot; in my best
&quot;Crocodile Dundee&quot; impression.

Report this message

#57: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-19 00:56:10 by Steve Cutchen

In article &lt;bp9vg.107019$<a href="mailto:iU2.75511&#64;fed1read01" target="_blank">iU2.75511&#64;fed1read01</a>&gt;, K2
&lt;<a href="mailto:K2PadFan&#64;padres.net" target="_blank">K2PadFan&#64;padres.net</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; &quot;Steve Cutchen&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:maxfaq&#64;earthlink.net" target="_blank">maxfaq&#64;earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:180720061158482858%<a href="mailto:maxfaq&#64;earthlink.net..." target="_blank">maxfaq&#64;earthlink.net...</a>
&gt; &gt; &quot;GOOD EYE!&quot;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &quot;The only compliment i ever got in little leage baseball was, Good Eye
&gt; &gt; Brian. Oh uh thank you. Good... torso, I saw you doing the trunk
&gt; &gt; rotations over there.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Good eye is when your too scared to even consider swinging the bat, the
&gt; &gt; ball grazes your head at about a hundred miles an hour; good eye
&gt; &gt; Brian!! Thanks, what did i do? You got out of the way of the
&gt; &gt; fastball. Oh good, I'm glad I did that, I wasn't gunna, but then I did.
&gt; &gt; Go team go.&quot;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; ---Brain Regan
&gt;
&gt; Playing softball years ago, I took a pitch that wasn't in the zone I was
&gt; looking for that was a verrrrrry close ball. Someone in the dugout called
&gt; out &quot;Good eye! Good eye!&quot;.
&gt; I tipped my cap to them and responded: &quot;G'day to you to mate!&quot; in my best
&gt; &quot;Crocodile Dundee&quot; impression.

That's not a bat... THIS is a bat...

<a href="http://tinyurl.com/mnxpv" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/mnxpv</a>

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#58: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-19 01:23:36 by K2

&quot;Steve Cutchen&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:maxfaq&#64;earthlink.net" target="_blank">maxfaq&#64;earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:180720061756123110%<a href="mailto:maxfaq&#64;earthlink.net..." target="_blank">maxfaq&#64;earthlink.net...</a>
&gt; In article &lt;bp9vg.107019$<a href="mailto:iU2.75511&#64;fed1read01" target="_blank">iU2.75511&#64;fed1read01</a>&gt;, K2
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:K2PadFan&#64;padres.net" target="_blank">K2PadFan&#64;padres.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; &quot;Steve Cutchen&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:maxfaq&#64;earthlink.net" target="_blank">maxfaq&#64;earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; news:180720061158482858%<a href="mailto:maxfaq&#64;earthlink.net..." target="_blank">maxfaq&#64;earthlink.net...</a>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &quot;GOOD EYE!&quot;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; &quot;The only compliment i ever got in little leage baseball was, Good Eye
&gt;&gt; &gt; Brian. Oh uh thank you. Good... torso, I saw you doing the trunk
&gt;&gt; &gt; rotations over there.
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; Good eye is when your too scared to even consider swinging the bat, the
&gt;&gt; &gt; ball grazes your head at about a hundred miles an hour; good eye
&gt;&gt; &gt; Brian!! Thanks, what did i do? You got out of the way of the
&gt;&gt; &gt; fastball. Oh good, I'm glad I did that, I wasn't gunna, but then I did.
&gt;&gt; &gt; Go team go.&quot;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; ---Brain Regan
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Playing softball years ago, I took a pitch that wasn't in the zone I was
&gt;&gt; looking for that was a verrrrrry close ball. Someone in the dugout called
&gt;&gt; out &quot;Good eye! Good eye!&quot;.
&gt;&gt; I tipped my cap to them and responded: &quot;G'day to you to mate!&quot; in my best
&gt;&gt; &quot;Crocodile Dundee&quot; impression.
&gt;
&gt; That's not a bat... THIS is a bat...
&gt;
&gt; <a href="http://tinyurl.com/mnxpv" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/mnxpv</a>

Crikey!
Now that's just not cricket, mate! ;oD

Report this message

#59: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-19 03:15:53 by Steve

Richard R. Hershberger wrote:
&gt; Richard Gadsden wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153165035.990967.256490&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153165035.990967.256490&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com</a>&gt; on 17
&gt;&gt;Jul 2006 12:37:16 -0700, <a href="mailto:rrhersh&#64;acme.com" target="_blank">rrhersh&#64;acme.com</a> (Richard R. Hershberger) wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;So in keeping with 19th century
&gt;&gt;&gt;journalistic hyperbole, they cranked things up a notch and called the
&gt;&gt;&gt;winner the world champion. In the 19th century this was informal
&gt;&gt;&gt;journalistic usage, but when the World Series was revived in the 20th
&gt;&gt;&gt;century the terminology was revived with it. I don't know when MLB
&gt;&gt;&gt;changed the language to &quot;World Series Champion&quot; but regardless, this
&gt;&gt;&gt;imposes no obligation on the rest of us to follow along.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;For most of the last half-century, there has been good pro baseball
&gt;&gt;played outside of MLB - perhaps more like the difference between NL and
&gt;&gt;AA in the 19th century than NL and AL in the 20th - and regarding the
&gt;&gt;MLB champion as an undisputed world champion has been generally unfair.
&gt;&gt;I think that the increasing recognition of Asian baseball is the main
&gt;&gt;reason that the usage has changed.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I expect you are right, and I would love to see some sort of
&gt; post-post-season championship series between the WS champion and an
&gt; Asian champion. I am merely out that &quot;world champion&quot; is established
&gt; usage, even if technically incorrect. This is a linguistic point more
&gt; than a baseball argument.
&gt;
But then add the Cuban national team, and any winner of a Latino
(Central America and Carribbean and S. America) tournament. And then
Poland is suddenly good and we have to add them. Etc. There IS a world
baseball championship, and it just started, and just maybe we can start
calling the winners of THAT the world champions.

--
Steve Alpert
MIT - B.S. (Eng.) '05, M.S. (Transp.) '06
<a href="http://web.mit.edu/smalpert/www/roads" target="_blank">http://web.mit.edu/smalpert/www/roads</a>

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#60: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-19 15:29:01 by rrhersh

Steve wrote:
&gt; Richard R. Hershberger wrote:
&gt; &gt; Richard Gadsden wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153165035.990967.256490&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153165035.990967.256490&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com</a>&gt; on 17
&gt; &gt;&gt;Jul 2006 12:37:16 -0700, <a href="mailto:rrhersh&#64;acme.com" target="_blank">rrhersh&#64;acme.com</a> (Richard R. Hershberger) wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;So in keeping with 19th century
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;journalistic hyperbole, they cranked things up a notch and called the
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;winner the world champion. In the 19th century this was informal
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;journalistic usage, but when the World Series was revived in the 20th
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;century the terminology was revived with it. I don't know when MLB
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;changed the language to &quot;World Series Champion&quot; but regardless, this
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;imposes no obligation on the rest of us to follow along.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;For most of the last half-century, there has been good pro baseball
&gt; &gt;&gt;played outside of MLB - perhaps more like the difference between NL and
&gt; &gt;&gt;AA in the 19th century than NL and AL in the 20th - and regarding the
&gt; &gt;&gt;MLB champion as an undisputed world champion has been generally unfair.
&gt; &gt;&gt;I think that the increasing recognition of Asian baseball is the main
&gt; &gt;&gt;reason that the usage has changed.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I expect you are right, and I would love to see some sort of
&gt; &gt; post-post-season championship series between the WS champion and an
&gt; &gt; Asian champion. I am merely out that &quot;world champion&quot; is established
&gt; &gt; usage, even if technically incorrect. This is a linguistic point more
&gt; &gt; than a baseball argument.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; But then add the Cuban national team, and any winner of a Latino
&gt; (Central America and Carribbean and S. America) tournament. And then
&gt; Poland is suddenly good and we have to add them. Etc. There IS a world
&gt; baseball championship, and it just started, and just maybe we can start
&gt; calling the winners of THAT the world champions.

I personally loved the World Baseball Classic, but it is a different
animal. The first great series to charge admission in baseball was in
1858, between picked nines (i.e., in this instance, all-star teams) of
New York (i.e. Manhattan) and Brooklyn players. Ever since then,
however, baseball championships have been of clubs, not regions. When
we speak of a competition between the U.S. and Japan this is a very
different thing than a competition between the New York Yankees and the
Giants (whether San Francisco or Tokyo). I don't care for the idea
that the &quot;world champions&quot; might be essentially a pick-up team thrown
together for one tournament.

Richard R. Hershberger

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#61: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-19 22:00:42 by Seapig

Richard R. Hershberger wrote:
&gt; Steve wrote:
&gt; &gt; Richard R. Hershberger wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; Richard Gadsden wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153165035.990967.256490&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153165035.990967.256490&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com</a>&gt; on 17
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;Jul 2006 12:37:16 -0700, <a href="mailto:rrhersh&#64;acme.com" target="_blank">rrhersh&#64;acme.com</a> (Richard R. Hershberger) wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;So in keeping with 19th century
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;journalistic hyperbole, they cranked things up a notch and called the
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;winner the world champion. In the 19th century this was informal
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;journalistic usage, but when the World Series was revived in the 20th
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;century the terminology was revived with it. I don't know when MLB
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;changed the language to &quot;World Series Champion&quot; but regardless, this
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;imposes no obligation on the rest of us to follow along.
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;For most of the last half-century, there has been good pro baseball
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;played outside of MLB - perhaps more like the difference between NL and
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;AA in the 19th century than NL and AL in the 20th - and regarding the
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;MLB champion as an undisputed world champion has been generally unfair.
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;I think that the increasing recognition of Asian baseball is the main
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;reason that the usage has changed.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; I expect you are right, and I would love to see some sort of
&gt; &gt; &gt; post-post-season championship series between the WS champion and an
&gt; &gt; &gt; Asian champion. I am merely out that &quot;world champion&quot; is established
&gt; &gt; &gt; usage, even if technically incorrect. This is a linguistic point more
&gt; &gt; &gt; than a baseball argument.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; But then add the Cuban national team, and any winner of a Latino
&gt; &gt; (Central America and Carribbean and S. America) tournament. And then
&gt; &gt; Poland is suddenly good and we have to add them. Etc. There IS a world
&gt; &gt; baseball championship, and it just started, and just maybe we can start
&gt; &gt; calling the winners of THAT the world champions.
&gt;
&gt; I personally loved the World Baseball Classic, but it is a different
&gt; animal. The first great series to charge admission in baseball was in
&gt; 1858, between picked nines (i.e., in this instance, all-star teams) of
&gt; New York (i.e. Manhattan) and Brooklyn players. Ever since then,
&gt; however, baseball championships have been of clubs, not regions. When
&gt; we speak of a competition between the U.S. and Japan this is a very
&gt; different thing than a competition between the New York Yankees and the
&gt; Giants (whether San Francisco or Tokyo). I don't care for the idea
&gt; that the &quot;world champions&quot; might be essentially a pick-up team thrown
&gt; together for one tournament.

FWIW, that is the nomenclature used by soccer - Italy is the world
champion, Sao Paulo is the club world champion. Of course, soccer's
national teams are something more than pickup teams thrown together for
one tournament: Italy spent nearly two years qualifying for the World
Cup, and will spend most of the next two in qualifying for the 2008
European Championship.

It does seem rather grandiose to call the winner of the WBC the &quot;world
champions&quot;, but no more so, IMO, than putting that tag on the Chicago
White Sox. If the WBC grows in stature, and maybe scope, calling its
winner the world champions might become more palatable, especially in
the absence of any real world club championship.

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#62: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-19 23:17:04 by Ryan Robbins

&quot;Richard R. Hershberger&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:rrhersh&#64;acme.com" target="_blank">rrhersh&#64;acme.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1153315741.537229.93440&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153315741.537229.93440&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; I personally loved the World Baseball Classic, but it is a different
&gt; animal. The first great series to charge admission in baseball was in
&gt; 1858, between picked nines (i.e., in this instance, all-star teams) of
&gt; New York (i.e. Manhattan) and Brooklyn players. Ever since then,
&gt; however, baseball championships have been of clubs, not regions. When
&gt; we speak of a competition between the U.S. and Japan this is a very
&gt; different thing than a competition between the New York Yankees and the
&gt; Giants (whether San Francisco or Tokyo). I don't care for the idea
&gt; that the &quot;world champions&quot; might be essentially a pick-up team thrown
&gt; together for one tournament.

A lot of people are forgetting that the world's best baseball players come
to the United States and Canada to play, because major league baseball is
the best baseball on the planet. There's little disputing this. Take a look
at the Japanese, Cuban, and Latin American players who were outstanding in
their home countries but are challenged when they play in the majors.

Thus, there's nothing wrong with calling major league baseball's
championship series the &quot;World Series&quot; and declaring the champion &quot;world
champion.&quot;

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#63: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-20 22:48:48 by David Emerling

&quot;James Allen&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:sjim67&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">sjim67&#64;aol.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1153232024.526183.320110&#64;p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153232024.526183.320110&#64;p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...</a>

TheDave© wrote:
&gt; I cringe every time I hear &quot;one swing of the bat&quot;, regardless of the
&gt; context. It can apply to literally every player and virtually every
&gt; situation. There is no bigger &quot;DUH!!!&quot; statement in all of baseball.
&gt; It reflects more a lack of articulateness on the part of the announcer
&gt; than some meaningful comment on the game.

Let's see...

I'm tired of hearing about a player doing a good job when he &quot;hits the
ball the other way&quot; to get a runner from second to third. If you can
find a hitter who, at any time, is intentionally trying to ground out
to the second base, let me know about him, OK? I would think trying to
get a single that scores the run would be a more desired objective. I
also detest the implication that a right handed hitter pulling the ball
(imagine that!) to the left side (thus not advancing the runner) has
somehow failed his team, no so much for the ground out, but that he hit
it to the wrong place.

* * *

I agree. Too many batters strikeout, hit easy pop-ups, and soft grounders
directly at fielders to make the argument that they can somehow direct where
they hit the ball. A right-hander is going to have a very difficult time
taking the ball &quot;the other way&quot; when the pitch is inside. You have to go
with the pitch. The fact that the ball was hit to the right side is probably
more indicative of pitch type and location than it was any particular
planning on the part of the batter.

The same goes with sacrifice flys. Most of those are just accidents, in my
opinion. No batter says, &quot;I think I'll hit a flyball.&quot;

Hell, if the hitters had that type of control, they'd all be batting .400!

They're facing major league pitching ... they're lucky to hit the ball AT
ALL!

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

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#64: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-21 18:20:56 by Kenny1111

David Emerling wrote:
&gt; &quot;James Allen&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:sjim67&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">sjim67&#64;aol.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:1153232024.526183.320110&#64;p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153232024.526183.320110&#64;p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; TheDave© wrote:
&gt;&gt; I cringe every time I hear &quot;one swing of the bat&quot;, regardless of the
&gt;&gt; context. It can apply to literally every player and virtually every
&gt;&gt; situation. There is no bigger &quot;DUH!!!&quot; statement in all of baseball.
&gt;&gt; It reflects more a lack of articulateness on the part of the announcer
&gt;&gt; than some meaningful comment on the game.
&gt;
&gt; Let's see...
&gt;
&gt; I'm tired of hearing about a player doing a good job when he &quot;hits the
&gt; ball the other way&quot; to get a runner from second to third. If you can
&gt; find a hitter who, at any time, is intentionally trying to ground out
&gt; to the second base, let me know about him, OK? I would think trying to
&gt; get a single that scores the run would be a more desired objective. I
&gt; also detest the implication that a right handed hitter pulling the ball
&gt; (imagine that!) to the left side (thus not advancing the runner) has
&gt; somehow failed his team, no so much for the ground out, but that he hit
&gt; it to the wrong place.
&gt;
&gt; * * *
&gt;
&gt; I agree. Too many batters strikeout, hit easy pop-ups, and soft grounders
&gt; directly at fielders to make the argument that they can somehow direct where
&gt; they hit the ball. A right-hander is going to have a very difficult time
&gt; taking the ball &quot;the other way&quot; when the pitch is inside. You have to go
&gt; with the pitch. The fact that the ball was hit to the right side is probably
&gt; more indicative of pitch type and location than it was any particular
&gt; planning on the part of the batter.
&gt;
&gt; The same goes with sacrifice flys. Most of those are just accidents, in my
&gt; opinion. No batter says, &quot;I think I'll hit a flyball.&quot;
&gt;
&gt; Hell, if the hitters had that type of control, they'd all be batting .400!
&gt;
&gt; They're facing major league pitching ... they're lucky to hit the ball AT
&gt; ALL!
&gt;
&gt; David Emerling
&gt; Memphis, TN
&gt;
&gt;

While I generally agree, in that I don't think a batter who advanced the
runner &quot;did his job,&quot; nor do I think a batter should have the goal of
advancing the runner, rather than driving the ball somewhere (even if to
left field), I disagree somewhat about the amount of control a batter
may have on directing a ball. While I'd agree that the batter's control
is very limited, I do think a batter can try to uppercut more in order
to hit a fly ball (he may hit a pop-up instead), or pull a Jeter and
inside-out a ball and hit it the other way (very generally, not
specifically directed toward a hole). I do question whether a batter
should necessarily drastically change his style in order to try to get a
run home, rather than trying to hit the ball hard, in which case the run
may come home anyways. Since I'm not sure how much it actually goes on,
it's tough to judge whether changing one's style a little decreases the
run expectancy of the plate appearance.

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#65: Re: What's your worst baseball cliche?

Posted on 2006-07-23 04:59:22 by Dan Szymborski

In article &lt;1153229124.895142.299370@
75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com&gt;, <a href="mailto:rrhersh&#64;acme.com" target="_blank">rrhersh&#64;acme.com</a> says...
&gt;
&gt; Richard Gadsden wrote:
&gt; &gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153165035.990967.256490&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153165035.990967.256490&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com</a>&gt; on 17
&gt; &gt; Jul 2006 12:37:16 -0700, <a href="mailto:rrhersh&#64;acme.com" target="_blank">rrhersh&#64;acme.com</a> (Richard R. Hershberger) wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; So in keeping with 19th century
&gt; &gt; &gt; journalistic hyperbole, they cranked things up a notch and called the
&gt; &gt; &gt; winner the world champion. In the 19th century this was informal
&gt; &gt; &gt; journalistic usage, but when the World Series was revived in the 20th
&gt; &gt; &gt; century the terminology was revived with it. I don't know when MLB
&gt; &gt; &gt; changed the language to &quot;World Series Champion&quot; but regardless, this
&gt; &gt; &gt; imposes no obligation on the rest of us to follow along.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; For most of the last half-century, there has been good pro baseball
&gt; &gt; played outside of MLB - perhaps more like the difference between NL and
&gt; &gt; AA in the 19th century than NL and AL in the 20th - and regarding the
&gt; &gt; MLB champion as an undisputed world champion has been generally unfair.
&gt; &gt; I think that the increasing recognition of Asian baseball is the main
&gt; &gt; reason that the usage has changed.
&gt;
&gt; I expect you are right, and I would love to see some sort of
&gt; post-post-season championship series between the WS champion and an
&gt; Asian champion.

I think it would be nice, too, but I don't think it's justified
at this time to determine a World Champion this way - we don't
fret that Louisville and Scranton Wilkes-Barre area also barred
from participating for the World Championship.

As I see it, MLB isn't an American league, it's an international
league that simply plays their games in the United States (and
Canada) for pragmatic reasons.

&gt; I am merely out that &quot;world champion&quot; is established
&gt; usage, even if technically incorrect. This is a linguistic point more
&gt; than a baseball argument.
&gt;
&gt;

--
Dan Szymborski
<a href="mailto:dan&#64;baseballprimerREMOVE.com" target="_blank">dan&#64;baseballprimerREMOVE.com</a>

&quot;A critic who refuses to attack what is bad is not
a whole-hearted supporter of what is good.&quot;

-Robert Schumann

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