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Sports » rec.sport.billiard » 8 ball, APA rules question
| 8 ball, APA rules question [message #1073136] |
Sat, 10 June 2006 17:58 |
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My (our) team made it to the the Vegas qualifier tournament this past
weekend. And we ended up coming in second overall, losing a hill-hill match
that would of given us the free Vegas trip. I played poorly, (well not
poorly, but not great) and lost our first match against a lower ranked
player, and whatever, being the captain the buck stops here.
My rules question is this.
My player, a lower end 3 rank, scratched while making the ball before the
eight, leaving her opponent with two balls on the table, plus an eight ball
buried deep in the pocket. Her captain called a time out, instructed her to
place the cue ball between the rail and her object 12 ball, shoot the 12
into the opposite corner, then run the balance of balls off as she saw fit.
She placed the cue ball close to, "probably" less than 1/2 inch away from
the object 12 ball. She could not hit the ball anway but center to high
ball, as she was shooting over the rail, and did not have her cue jacked up.
START(
%HC9D0%IO7Q8%LD9E0%PE2C8%eB4`7
)END
No one watched over her shoulder as she stroked the ball, and no one called
a ref, although in hindsight, I should have.
She made the 12 in the corner, the cue ball raced, at the same speed as the
object ball, towards the side rail, hit the rail and bounced back to leave
the table like this.
START(
%HC9D0%IO7Q8%PG8K5%eB4`7
)END
I called a foul, stating a push shot was played.
Now the APA rule book states this:..A pushshot involves a situation where
the cue ball is frozen or nearly frozen to the object ball. The problem
faced by the shooter is to keep the from pushing or keeping the tip of the
cue on the cue ball. It looks bad, and is generally though of as illegal.
Push shots are controversial. Push shots will not be called in this amateur
league. Even the professional players cannot agree about what is and isnt a
push shot. In general you can lessen you chances of shooting a push shot if
you elevate your butt of your cue to 30 degrees. This automatically cuts
down the length of the follow through which the principal cause of the push
shot. Players who repeatedly guide the cue ball with force through the
object balls that are frozen, or nearly frozen to the cue ball, using a
level cue and long follow, may be subject to a sportsmanship penalty.
After the shot I called a foul, and talked to the tournament director,
stating that I tought a foul was played. He then stated to me after I laid
things out, that it wasnt a pushshot, it was a "double hit" shot, in which
the cue tip hit the cueball twice. Hence the ball action, and that since no
ref was called, it would be up to the captains to work this out. We replayed
the game.
SO, what is the difference between a push shot and a double hit? What are
the rules on both? And how does the fact the cue ball traveled at the same
speed as the 12 ball, play into this?
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| Re: 8 ball, APA rules question [message #1073145 ] |
Sat, 10 June 2006 18:49 |
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DMHenrie wrote:
> She placed the cue ball close to, "probably" less than 1/2 inch away from
> the object 12 ball. She could not hit the ball anway but center to high
> ball, as she was shooting over the rail, and did not have her cue jacked up.
>
> START(
> %HC9D0%IO7Q8%LD9E0%PE2C8%eB4`7
>
> )END
>
>
> No one watched over her shoulder as she stroked the ball, and no one called
> a ref, although in hindsight, I should have.
Yep.
> I called a foul, stating a push shot was played.
It may have been a push shot. It was almost certainly a double hit. As
the APA rules state, push shots are not called, but repeated behavior
that strongly suggests pushing can draw a sportsmanship foul.
> SO, what is the difference between a push shot and a double hit?
A push shot involves unusually prolonged contact of the tip with the
cue ball, shoving the CB along instead of sending it on its way with a
strike of the tip. A double hit is just what it says: the cue tip (or
any other part of the cue) strikes the cue ball twice during a stroke.
Double hits typically happen because the CB stops or rebounds after
traveling a very short distance, while the cue's forward motion cannot
be checked in time to avoid hitting the CB again. A miscue may result
in a double hit when the tip strikes, slides off, and the ferrule or
side of the shaft hits the CB.
> What are the rules on both?
As the APA team manual says, push shots are not called as ball in hand
fouls. Repeated appearance of pushing behavior can be called as a
sportsmanship violation. Sportsmanship violations do not interrupt or
change the course of a match. They are reported to the local league's
governing board, which may impose sanctions after the fact.
Sanctions for push shots and double hits are left to the bylaws of the
local leagues. Some leagues' bylaws declare that push shot and double
hits are the same thing.
See pages 50-52 of the APA Team Manual. Here's a condensed version:
"These are the only fouls resulting in ball-in-hand. All other
violations are sportsmanship violations."
A double hit is not named explicitly among the ball-in-hand fouls.
HOWEVER, one of the ball-in-hand fouls is, "Causing even the slightest
movement or altering the course of
the cue ball" once it is set in motion. Hitting the cue ball a second
time alters its course, obviously. So I would insist that a double hit
is a ball-in-hand foul.
> And how does the fact the cue ball traveled at the same
> speed as the 12 ball, play into this?
Speed is irrelevant. Had the cue ball struck the OB just right, both
balls would take off from the point of impact at exactly the same speed
but clearly in different directions, and the shot would have been
perfectly legal. It's the path that the cue ball follows immediately
after the hit that indicates a double hit.
The APA manual does not advise players how to detect a double hit. The
World Standardized Rules read as follow:
http://tinyurl.com/5r2nr
2.20 JUDGING DOUBLE HITS
When the distance between the cue ball and the object ball is less than
the width of a chalk cube, (See Diagram 18) special attention from the
referee is required. In such a situation, unless the referee can
positively determine a legal shot has been performed, the following
guidance may apply: if the cue ball follows through the object ball
more than 1/2 ball, it is a foul.
Replaying the game was the best solution. Calling a ref to watch the
hit would have been better. Asking the league operator to explain
exactly what the consequences of a double hit or push shot are would
also have been helpful.
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| Re: 8 ball, APA rules question [message #1073147 ] |
Sat, 10 June 2006 19:30 |
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"DMHenrie" wrote in message
> ...what is the difference between a push shot and a double hit? What are
> the rules on both? And how does the fact the cue ball traveled at the same
> speed as the 12 ball, play into this?
Sounds like a double hit foul to me. BUT if a ref is not called to watch the
hit *before* the shot, generally the call will go to the shooter.
And if a ref does not clearly see if a foul occurred or not, the shooter
will get the benefit of the doubt. For example if the shooter was shooting
the cue ball toward the rail in some situations, it might be difficult to
tell if there was a double hit or not. So if ref is not sure there was a
double hit, then shooter would get the call.
If neither player calls a ref before a questionable hit, the call goes to
the shooter. The best thing to do is say, "If you are going to shoot the 7
ball, I would like a ref." This is good because you are not interrupting
them after they have got down to shoot the shot.
What you described is easy and clear to call as a double hit. There was a
"gap" between the "cue ball and object ball" prior to shooting, *and* the
cue ball immediately followed the object ball after the shot.
With a good hit (nip shot or shot at angle), the cue ball will stop after
hitting the object ball. Or a good hit with follow (nip follow shot), the
cue ball will hit the object ball, THEN HESITATE before proceeding forward.
Due to the hesitation, there is more distance between the cue ball and the
object ball. The cue ball does not "immediately follow" the object ball.
A double hit is when you hit the cue ball, then the cue ball hits the object
ball, then your tip again hits the cue ball. So your tip has hit the cue
ball twice in one shot. This happens if your follow through stroke is longer
than the distance between the cue ball and object ball. This can happen if
the balls are 4 inches apart and your follow though is 5 inches!
In some situations, you can hit the cue ball, the cue ball knocks the object
ball off the rail, then you hit cue ball a second time to then pocket the
object ball. If hit once, pocketing the ball would not be possible, but with
the double hit, the object ball makes the pocket. This is not fair and is
why double hits are fouls.
So try it a double hit. Place two balls close together (say 2 inch gap).
Choke up on butt of cue so you can't follow through more than the distance
between balls, and hit the cue ball. Cue ball should stop after hit. Then do
same with a long follow through stroke. You should hear two "clicks" and the
cue ball should immediately follow the object ball.
Here is a slow motion video of a double hit...
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/ne w/HSVA-12.htm
A push shot is when the tip of your cue remains in contact with the cue ball
for an extended amount of time. Touch the tip of your cue to the cue ball,
then slowly push it across the table. The tip remains in contact with the
cue ball. You are guiding the cue ball where you want it to go. So you could
in theory guide the cue ball around an obstructing ball! Not fair play.
When the cue ball is "frozen" to the object ball, a normal stroke may be
used. And the cue ball follows right along after the object ball, yet it is
a good hit. The tip of your cue has hit the cue ball just once because the
balls were frozen. This is why it is important for the ref to look at the
balls *prior* to the hit.
The best rules on this are BCA rules (the "real" rules). Get a BCA rule book
which contains the complete rules for many pool games here...
(Billiards: The Official Rules & Records Book)
https://www.bcastore.com/product_info.php?products_id=118&am p;osCsid=cf0f03a41be377ae57c57e7f5b74385f
Also to learn the rules the best, play in local BCA rules tournaments, start
your own local BCA rules pool tournament, or join a BCA rules league. BCA
rules are fair rules.
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| Re: 8 ball, APA rules question [message #1073191 ] |
Sun, 11 June 2006 00:06 |
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Mere moments before death, Dhakala hastily scrawled:
>> I called a foul, stating a push shot was played.
>
>It may have been a push shot. It was almost certainly a double hit. As
>the APA rules state, push shots are not called, but repeated behavior
>that strongly suggests pushing can draw a sportsmanship foul.
Unfortunately for the players, the rules change when you get to Vegas.
If, and only if, a referee is watching the shot, a push shot foul can
and will be called. This is not stated in the rulebook, but I can
attest to the fact as I witnessed it with my own eyes at the '04 Vegas
event. As I understand it, some LO's understand the push shot rule
and will call it in the qualifiers, but ours would not call it based
on the rules in the book.
Ed Chauvin IV
--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G [at] 11.
"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin
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| Re: 8 ball, APA rules question [message #1073224 ] |
Sun, 11 June 2006 03:28 |
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Ed Chauvin IV wrote:
> Unfortunately for the players, the rules change when you get to Vegas.
> If, and only if, a referee is watching the shot, a push shot foul can
> and will be called. This is not stated in the rulebook, but I can
> attest to the fact as I witnessed it with my own eyes at the '04 Vegas
> event. As I understand it, some LO's understand the push shot rule
> and will call it in the qualifiers, but ours would not call it based
> on the rules in the book.
I think this is one of those matters left to the bylaws of each league.
Is there a Vegas rule book that players get before they head there, or
do surprises like this get sprung on them in the midst of a match?
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| Re: 8 ball, APA rules question [message #1073271 ] |
Sun, 11 June 2006 20:18 |
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Mere moments before death, Dhakala hastily scrawled:
>
>Ed Chauvin IV wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately for the players, the rules change when you get to Vegas.
>> If, and only if, a referee is watching the shot, a push shot foul can
>> and will be called. This is not stated in the rulebook, but I can
>> attest to the fact as I witnessed it with my own eyes at the '04 Vegas
>> event. As I understand it, some LO's understand the push shot rule
>> and will call it in the qualifiers, but ours would not call it based
>> on the rules in the book.
>
>I think this is one of those matters left to the bylaws of each league.
Maybe in HLTs, but it doesn't get called in regular league matches
anywhere AFAIK.
>Is there a Vegas rule book that players get before they head there, or
>do surprises like this get sprung on them in the midst of a match?
Yup, that's the most unfortunate aspect.
Ed Chauvin IV
--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G [at] 11.
"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin
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| Re: 8 ball, APA rules question [message #1073316 ] |
Tue, 13 June 2006 01:57 |
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DMHenrie <dmhenrie [at] verizon.net> wrote:
[ a foul shot that went uncalled ]
It is too bad the APA seems to have chosen to keep their players
in the dark about what happens on such shots. I think they
should arrange to teach their members the truth rather than
promote ignorance and cheating. But that would take a lot of
work. The difference between a double hit and a push shot will
be defined in the APA rules, if they are worth using. Since the
APA makes up their own rules, they are free to make up their own
definitions as well.
For many people, a push shot at pool involves a push rather than
a stroke to hit the cue ball. It is described in the RSB FAQ which
is the second item at http://www.sfbilliards.com/misc.htm
It is very rare and normally only used by skilled cheats.
A double hit is a shot in which the cue stick hits the cue ball
twice, or at least the action of the cue ball indicates that it
may have been struck twice. From your description, your opponent
played a double hit, and her team captain put her in a situation
where she was almost certain to do so.
If you would like to read more about the problems and rules
concerning pushes/double hits, see the articles in the first
item in the link above. There are relevant articles from
1992 and 2006.
--
Bob Jewett
http://www.sfbilliards.com/
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| Re: 8 ball, APA rules question [message #1073319 ] |
Tue, 13 June 2006 02:46 |
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Bob Jewett wrote:
> DMHenrie <dmhenrie [at] verizon.net> wrote:
>
> [ a foul shot that went uncalled ]
>
> It is too bad the APA seems to have chosen to keep their players
> in the dark about what happens on such shots.
As well as a number of other silly rules they seem to support.
> I think they should arrange to teach their members the truth rather than
> promote ignorance and cheating. But that would take a lot of
> work.
Yeah, change the entire APA which from what I Read in here seems to have
its whole construct based on cheating (with handicaps)
> The difference between a double hit and a push shot will
> be defined in the APA rules, if they are worth using.
From years of posts in RSB, I'd say APA rules and definitions are
mostly rubbish.
> For many people, a push shot at pool involves a push rather than
> a stroke to hit the cue ball.
Since the BCA rules go right along with common definitions of the words
"push" and "double hit" it seems silly they would have a such a strange
mis-interpatation of the common words, particularly after it is well
known that the old "push" is really a double hit.
Another bazaar rule that I hate, (not sure if it is APA rule or not) is
touching the cue ball with the tip after ball in hand. The damned
International Pool Tour 8 ball thing-ee got Fisher and I think
Strickland with that dumb ass rule. Actually, I think there rule is you
can't use any part of your stick to move the CB, which is a little
better since there is no argument over what touched the CB. Still, it
is a chicken-shit rule that has no use in any pool match I've seen.
Never have I seen an issue where the BCA rules on this was not
abundantly adequate.
Jack
http://jbstein.com
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| Re: 8 ball, APA rules question [message #1073322 ] |
Tue, 13 June 2006 03:11 |
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Bob Jewett wrote:
> For many people, a push shot at pool involves a push rather than
> a stroke to hit the cue ball. It is described in the RSB FAQ which
> is the second item at http://www.sfbilliards.com/misc.htm
> It is very rare and normally only used by skilled cheats.
>
> A double hit is a shot in which the cue stick hits the cue ball
> twice, or at least the action of the cue ball indicates that it
> may have been struck twice. From your description, your opponent
> played a double hit, and her team captain put her in a situation
> where she was almost certain to do so.
>
> If you would like to read more about the problems and rules
> concerning pushes/double hits, see the articles in the first
> item in the link above. There are relevant articles from
> 1992 and 2006.
Also see Bob's article on judging bad hits when two balls are close
together, "Close Calls," April, 1993 on the page above. I just printed
a copy for my son, whose pool pals have recently calling a "split
shot," in which they claim that they intend to hit two balls
simultaneously and that such a hit is legal even if one of the balls is
not one that you can legally hit first. Rather than debate the legality
of a split shot, I think Bob's article will help Tony prove that his
mates really didn't make the shot that they called. One ball or the
other will be hit first 99.99% of the time.
I told Tony to take it as a compliment. "By attempting to cheat you,
they're admitting that they can't beat you." :-)
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| Re: 8 ball, APA rules question [message #1073337 ] |
Tue, 13 June 2006 06:03 |
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In article <1fCdnZ6iS4tQlxPZnZ2dnUVZ_o2dnZ2d [at] comcast.com>,
Jack Stein <jbstein2 [at] comcast.net> wrote:
> Another bazaar rule that I hate, (not sure if it is APA rule or not) is
> touching the cue ball with the tip after ball in hand. The damned
> International Pool Tour 8 ball thing-ee got Fisher and I think
> Strickland with that dumb ass rule. Actually, I think there rule is you
> can't use any part of your stick to move the CB, which is a little
> better since there is no argument over what touched the CB. Still, it
> is a chicken-shit rule that has no use in any pool match I've seen.
> Never have I seen an issue where the BCA rules on this was not
> abundantly adequate.
I don't think I have ever, not a single time, seen anyone confused
about whether the cue ball was being positioned or stroked with the
cue. It always seems perfectly clear what is happening. It just
isn't an issue, so why try to make it one with a bad rule? BTW, I
think it was Bustamante that got caught with the rule.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
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