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Sports » rec.sport.rugby.union » Bok & Wallaby teams
| Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072029] |
Wed, 12 July 2006 06:33 |
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AUSTRALIA: Chris Latham; Mark Gerrard, Stirling Mortlock, Matt Giteau, Lote
Tuqiri; Stephen Larkham, George Gregan (captain); Scott Fava, George Smith,
Rocky Elsom; Dan Vickerman, Nathan Sharpe; Guy Shepherdson, Jeremy Paul,
Greg Holmes. Replacements: Sean Hardman, Al Baxter, Mark Chisholm, Phil
Waugh, Sam Cordingley, Mat Rogers, Clyde Rathbone.
SOUTH AFRICA: Percy Montgomery; Akona Ndungane, Jaque Fourie, Wynard
Olivier, Bryan Habana; Jaco van der Westhuyzen, Ricky Januarie; Pierre
Spies, Juan Smith, Joe van Niekerk; Danie Rossouw, Victor Matfield; CJ van
der Linde, John Smit (captain), Os du Randt. Replacements: Danie Coetzee,
Eddie Andrews, Albert van der Berg, Jacques Cronje, Fourie du Preez, Meyer
Bosman, Breyton Paulse.
It's a bit confusing with the 6 & 7s of the South African numbering, so can
someone more familiar with the 'bok loose forwards tell me who is actually
going to play openside, even if they're wearing 6? And who's this Spies
fellow, is he any good? I don't remember him playing in the S14.
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072032 ] |
Wed, 12 July 2006 07:25 |
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"Michael" <quadhammerNO [at] SPICEDHAM</a<a href="mailto:> [at] hotmail.com" target="_blank">> [at] hotmail.com> wrote
> It's a bit confusing with the 6 & 7s of the South African numbering, so
> can someone more familiar with the 'bok loose forwards tell me who is
> actually going to play openside, even if they're wearing 6? And who's
> this Spies fellow, is he any good? I don't remember him playing in the
> S14.
He was *sensational* in the recent U21 (?) WC.
cheers,
calvin
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072036 ] |
Wed, 12 July 2006 08:09 |
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quadhammerNO [at] SPICEDHAM says...
> It's a bit confusing with the 6 & 7s of the South African numbering, so can
> someone more familiar with the 'bok loose forwards tell me who is actually
> going to play openside, even if they're wearing 6? And who's this Spies
> fellow, is he any good? I don't remember him playing in the S14.
Courtesy of Wikipedia:
"Pierre Johan Spies (born 8 June 1985 in Pretoria, South Africa) .... His
usual position is on the flank or at number 8, where he plays for the
Bulls in the international Super 14 competition. He has been included in
the Springboks' 2006 Tri Nations Series squad.
Spies made his Super 12 debut on the against the Brumbies, becoming the
youngest player ever to represent the Bulls. After being injured in his
first ever Super 12 match, he made his comeback through the the national
under-21 league, where he scored nine tries in just six games. He made his
debut for the Blue Bulls in 2005 in a match against the Griquas."
Made his Blue Bulls debut as a winger.
Height 194
Weight 104
Most SA gossip I hear is that he'll wear No 6, so presumably (because of
the daft Bok numbering system) he'll be mainly playing open side.
Geoff M
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072049 ] |
Wed, 12 July 2006 09:07 |
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"Geoff Muldoon" <geoff.muldoon [at] trap.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1f1f3d3183905feb989828 [at] news.readfreenews.net...
> quadhammerNO [at] SPICEDHAM says...
>
>> It's a bit confusing with the 6 & 7s of the South African numbering, so
>> can
>> someone more familiar with the 'bok loose forwards tell me who is
>> actually
>> going to play openside, even if they're wearing 6? And who's this Spies
>> fellow, is he any good? I don't remember him playing in the S14.
>
> Courtesy of Wikipedia:
>
> "Pierre Johan Spies (born 8 June 1985 in Pretoria, South Africa) .... His
> usual position is on the flank or at number 8, where he plays for the
> Bulls in the international Super 14 competition. He has been included in
> the Springboks' 2006 Tri Nations Series squad.
>
> Spies made his Super 12 debut on the against the Brumbies, becoming the
> youngest player ever to represent the Bulls. After being injured in his
> first ever Super 12 match, he made his comeback through the the national
> under-21 league, where he scored nine tries in just six games. He made his
> debut for the Blue Bulls in 2005 in a match against the Griquas."
>
> Made his Blue Bulls debut as a winger.
>
> Height 194
> Weight 104
>
> Most SA gossip I hear is that he'll wear No 6, so presumably (because of
> the daft Bok numbering system) he'll be mainly playing open side.
>
I think his father was a Springbok winger.
cheers, AMtt
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072058 ] |
Wed, 12 July 2006 10:02 |
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On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 14:33:59 +1000, "Michael"
<quadhammerNO [at] SPICEDHAM</a<a href="mailto:> [at] hotmail.com" target="_blank">> [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
<<>AUSTRALIA: Chris Latham; Mark Gerrard, Stirling Mortlock, Matt
Giteau, Lote
>Tuqiri; Stephen Larkham, George Gregan (captain); Scott Fava, George Smith,
>Rocky Elsom; Dan Vickerman, Nathan Sharpe; Guy Shepherdson, Jeremy Paul,
>Greg Holmes. Replacements: Sean Hardman, Al Baxter, Mark Chisholm, Phil
>Waugh, Sam Cordingley, Mat Rogers, Clyde Rathbone.
>
>SOUTH AFRICA: Percy Montgomery; Akona Ndungane, Jaque Fourie, Wynard
>Olivier, Bryan Habana; Jaco van der Westhuyzen, Ricky Januarie; Pierre
>Spies, Juan Smith, Joe van Niekerk; Danie Rossouw, Victor Matfield; CJ van
>der Linde, John Smit (captain), Os du Randt. Replacements: Danie Coetzee,
>Eddie Andrews, Albert van der Berg, Jacques Cronje, Fourie du Preez, Meyer
>Bosman, Breyton Paulse.
>
>It's a bit confusing with the 6 & 7s of the South African numbering, so can
>someone more familiar with the 'bok loose forwards tell me who is actually
>going to play openside, even if they're wearing 6? And who's this Spies
>fellow, is he any good? I don't remember him playing in the S14. >>
With the absence of Schalk Burger, the Boks are actually without a
dedicated fetcher.
Joe van Niekerk has apparently been given the task to transform
himself into that. It is an experiment that will probably not work out
well as Van Niekerk is a blessed with skills to run and read the game,
but not to grind unseen.
Juan Smith has a high work rate and does some fetching. He may fill in
some gaps there.
Spies is new. Bigish and fast. He played wing for SA u21 as well. But
he is also a typical SA flanker - big and fast and loves running with
the ball. But in tight international games there are not that many
chances to run freely with the ball. So it is still to be seen if he
can step up and offer value on test level.
He started playing for the Bulls this year and may have had a run on
or so in the S14 but was not a starting player. He was goodish at the
recent u 21 WC - but once again, as a runner getting the ball in
space. What the Boks need, is not another runner (both Smith and Van
Niekerk are good runners as well) but another Schalk Burger.
We have such a flank who has a huge work rate, tackles and wins balls
and has made a nice step up in his level of play this year. He is
probably - with Burger out - the best flank in SA in that role. He is
Luke Watson, these days WP's captain. But our coach apparently refuses
to pick him. The speculation is that the coach got angry at media
pressure to pick Watson and then made up his mind not to pick him.
In the absence of good reasons from the coach himself, the rugby
followers in SA is going with that (only) explanation.
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072067 ] |
Wed, 12 July 2006 10:52 |
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"Ferdi Greyling" <me [at] thisplace.co> wrote in message
news:bla9b2hk282b95k2u1bofn45p07bqd4ipm [at] 4ax.com...
> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 14:33:59 +1000, "Michael"
> <quadhammerNO [at] SPICEDHAM</a<a href="mailto:> [at] hotmail.com" target="_blank">> [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> <<>AUSTRALIA: Chris Latham; Mark Gerrard, Stirling Mortlock, Matt
> Giteau, Lote
>>Tuqiri; Stephen Larkham, George Gregan (captain); Scott Fava, George
>>Smith,
>>Rocky Elsom; Dan Vickerman, Nathan Sharpe; Guy Shepherdson, Jeremy Paul,
>>Greg Holmes. Replacements: Sean Hardman, Al Baxter, Mark Chisholm, Phil
>>Waugh, Sam Cordingley, Mat Rogers, Clyde Rathbone.
>>
>>SOUTH AFRICA: Percy Montgomery; Akona Ndungane, Jaque Fourie, Wynard
>>Olivier, Bryan Habana; Jaco van der Westhuyzen, Ricky Januarie; Pierre
>>Spies, Juan Smith, Joe van Niekerk; Danie Rossouw, Victor Matfield; CJ van
>>der Linde, John Smit (captain), Os du Randt. Replacements: Danie Coetzee,
>>Eddie Andrews, Albert van der Berg, Jacques Cronje, Fourie du Preez, Meyer
>>Bosman, Breyton Paulse.
>>
>>It's a bit confusing with the 6 & 7s of the South African numbering, so
>>can
>>someone more familiar with the 'bok loose forwards tell me who is actually
>>going to play openside, even if they're wearing 6? And who's this Spies
>>fellow, is he any good? I don't remember him playing in the S14. >>
>
>
> With the absence of Schalk Burger, the Boks are actually without a
> dedicated fetcher.
> Joe van Niekerk has apparently been given the task to transform
> himself into that. It is an experiment that will probably not work out
> well as Van Niekerk is a blessed with skills to run and read the game,
> but not to grind unseen.
>
> Juan Smith has a high work rate and does some fetching. He may fill in
> some gaps there.
>
>
> Spies is new. Bigish and fast. He played wing for SA u21 as well. But
> he is also a typical SA flanker - big and fast and loves running with
> the ball. But in tight international games there are not that many
> chances to run freely with the ball. So it is still to be seen if he
> can step up and offer value on test level.
>
> He started playing for the Bulls this year and may have had a run on
> or so in the S14 but was not a starting player. He was goodish at the
> recent u 21 WC - but once again, as a runner getting the ball in
> space. What the Boks need, is not another runner (both Smith and Van
> Niekerk are good runners as well) but another Schalk Burger.
>
> We have such a flank who has a huge work rate, tackles and wins balls
> and has made a nice step up in his level of play this year. He is
> probably - with Burger out - the best flank in SA in that role. He is
> Luke Watson, these days WP's captain. But our coach apparently refuses
> to pick him. The speculation is that the coach got angry at media
> pressure to pick Watson and then made up his mind not to pick him.
>
> In the absence of good reasons from the coach himself, the rugby
> followers in SA is going with that (only) explanation.
>
I thought there was more to it than that - perhaps some falling out with
Luke's father, a former Springbok?
cheers, aMtt
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072074 ] |
Wed, 12 July 2006 11:22 |
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On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 20:52:57 +1200, Neilsons wrote:
> "Ferdi Greyling" <me [at] thisplace.co> wrote in message
> news:bla9b2hk282b95k2u1bofn45p07bqd4ipm [at] 4ax.com...
>> We have such a flank who has a huge work rate, tackles and wins balls
>> and has made a nice step up in his level of play this year. He is
>> probably - with Burger out - the best flank in SA in that role. He is
>> Luke Watson, these days WP's captain. But our coach apparently refuses
>> to pick him. The speculation is that the coach got angry at media
>> pressure to pick Watson and then made up his mind not to pick him.
>>
>> In the absence of good reasons from the coach himself, the rugby
>> followers in SA is going with that (only) explanation.
>>
> I thought there was more to it than that - perhaps some falling out with
> Luke's father, a former Springbok?
Surely that can't be it. How petty and stupid would White have to be?
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072076 ] |
Wed, 12 July 2006 11:18 |
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Calvin wrote:
> "Michael" <quadhammerNO [at] SPICEDHAM</a<a href="mailto:> [at] hotmail.com" target="_blank">> [at] hotmail.com> wrote
>
> > It's a bit confusing with the 6 & 7s of the South African numbering, so
> > can someone more familiar with the 'bok loose forwards tell me who is
> > actually going to play openside, even if they're wearing 6? And who's
> > this Spies fellow, is he any good? I don't remember him playing in the
> > S14.
>
> He was *sensational* in the recent U21 (?) WC.
Just think Bobby Skinstad at his peak and square it.
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072078 ] |
Wed, 12 July 2006 12:18 |
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On 12 Jul 2006 02:18:59 -0700, "LiB" <scary [at] executivemail.co.za>
wrote:
<<>Just think Bobby Skinstad at his peak and square it.>>
No. He does not have the silken skills that Skinstad had.
Skinstad was brilliant at seeing where the game is going and then
directing traffic there. That he did by for example taking tackles and
slipping out a pass to somebody who would then run. Or by picking up a
ball and passing it to the correct side.
Spies does not do that. He is merely a runner. Quite fast, but so are
just about all the top loose forwards in the world.
Personally I think Joe van Niekerk - IF he is on form and fit - is a
better player than Spies to have in your team.
Spies was a wing as a junior. Skinstad was a centre. Go figure.
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072079 ] |
Wed, 12 July 2006 12:20 |
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"JD" <_antipodean_ [at] ubique.com> wrote in message
news:1fzi13k5l8p6p$.r7revh6crssx$.dlg [at] 40tude.net...
> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 20:52:57 +1200, Neilsons wrote:
>
>> "Ferdi Greyling" <me [at] thisplace.co> wrote in message
>> news:bla9b2hk282b95k2u1bofn45p07bqd4ipm [at] 4ax.com...
>
>>> We have such a flank who has a huge work rate, tackles and wins balls
>>> and has made a nice step up in his level of play this year. He is
>>> probably - with Burger out - the best flank in SA in that role. He is
>>> Luke Watson, these days WP's captain. But our coach apparently refuses
>>> to pick him. The speculation is that the coach got angry at media
>>> pressure to pick Watson and then made up his mind not to pick him.
>>>
>>> In the absence of good reasons from the coach himself, the rugby
>>> followers in SA is going with that (only) explanation.
>>>
>> I thought there was more to it than that - perhaps some falling out with
>> Luke's father, a former Springbok?
>
> Surely that can't be it. How petty and stupid would White have to be?
Springbok rugby has far more politics and intrigue than NZ rugby will ever
have. There is far more to the Watson story than meets the eye, I'm sure.
Google "Cheeky Watson" and look at the second link to get a hint of what may
be at play.
cheers, aMtt
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072080 ] |
Wed, 12 July 2006 12:26 |
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On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 20:52:57 +1200, "Neilsons"
<matt.neilson [at] paradise.net.nz> wrote:
<<>I thought there was more to it than that - perhaps some falling out
with
>Luke's father, a former Springbok?>>
No. That is urban legend.
Watson's father played for a black rugby club in SA waaaay back in the
70's - as an act of protest against apartheid. He was a wing - Cheeky
Watson.
People who wanted to cast this problem on political lines refered back
to that but the only reff to Watson's fathers's politics was made from
outside rugby. And the reff faded away soon.
Jake White never refered to the politics except - when the allegation
was made , to flatly deny it. I believe him as Whaite's politics is
probably pretty much in tune with what Watson's father's politics
were.
Jake white has a strong point in that he realises the value of
consistancy. That was good after two clowish coached who did not value
consistancy in any way.
But in White it now seems to have turned into a negative as well - he
seems to have a strange unwillingness to pick new talent and to want
to retain old players even if they have not performed for a long time.
Thus he leaves possibly the best talent in SA rugby among backs in
years - Ruan Pienaar- totally in the cold. And refuses to pick Watson
- even when conditions have changed (Burger getting injured and Watson
maturing) dramatically.
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072083 ] |
Wed, 12 July 2006 12:47 |
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Ferdi Greyling wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 20:52:57 +1200, "Neilsons"
> <matt.neilson [at] paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>
>
> <<>I thought there was more to it than that - perhaps some falling out
> with
> >Luke's father, a former Springbok?>>
>
>
> No. That is urban legend.
> Watson's father played for a black rugby club in SA waaaay back in the
> 70's - as an act of protest against apartheid. He was a wing - Cheeky
> Watson.
>
> People who wanted to cast this problem on political lines refered back
> to that but the only reff to Watson's fathers's politics was made from
> outside rugby. And the reff faded away soon.
>
> Jake White never refered to the politics except - when the allegation
> was made , to flatly deny it. I believe him as Whaite's politics is
> probably pretty much in tune with what Watson's father's politics
> were.
>
> Jake white has a strong point in that he realises the value of
> consistancy. That was good after two clowish coached who did not value
> consistancy in any way.
>
> But in White it now seems to have turned into a negative as well - he
> seems to have a strange unwillingness to pick new talent and to want
> to retain old players even if they have not performed for a long time.
>
> Thus he leaves possibly the best talent in SA rugby among backs in
> years - Ruan Pienaar- totally in the cold. And refuses to pick Watson
> - even when conditions have changed (Burger getting injured and Watson
> maturing) dramatically.
I also think Pienaar and Watson should be in the Antipodes, but there's
still LOTS of time for them...
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072097 ] |
Wed, 12 July 2006 15:49 |
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On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 22:20:59 +1200, "Neilsons"
<matt.neilson [at] paradise.net.nz> wrote:
<<>Springbok rugby has far more politics and intrigue than NZ rugby
will ever
>have. There is far more to the Watson story than meets the eye, I'm sure.
>Google "Cheeky Watson" and look at the second link to get a hint of what may
>be at play.>>
What are you refering to as the 2nd link on my search had a long thing
about Keith Richards.
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072108 ] |
Wed, 12 July 2006 19:07 |
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"LiB" <scary [at] executivemail.co.za> wrote in message
news:1152701251.645878.303740 [at] 75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Ferdi Greyling wrote:
>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 20:52:57 +1200, "Neilsons"
>> <matt.neilson [at] paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>>
>>
>> <<>I thought there was more to it than that - perhaps some falling out
>> with
>> >Luke's father, a former Springbok?>>
>>
>>
>> No. That is urban legend.
>> Watson's father played for a black rugby club in SA waaaay back in the
>> 70's - as an act of protest against apartheid. He was a wing - Cheeky
>> Watson.
>>
>> People who wanted to cast this problem on political lines refered back
>> to that but the only reff to Watson's fathers's politics was made from
>> outside rugby. And the reff faded away soon.
>>
>> Jake White never refered to the politics except - when the allegation
>> was made , to flatly deny it. I believe him as Whaite's politics is
>> probably pretty much in tune with what Watson's father's politics
>> were.
>>
>> Jake white has a strong point in that he realises the value of
>> consistancy. That was good after two clowish coached who did not value
>> consistancy in any way.
>>
>> But in White it now seems to have turned into a negative as well - he
>> seems to have a strange unwillingness to pick new talent and to want
>> to retain old players even if they have not performed for a long time.
>>
>> Thus he leaves possibly the best talent in SA rugby among backs in
>> years - Ruan Pienaar- totally in the cold. And refuses to pick Watson
>> - even when conditions have changed (Burger getting injured and Watson
>> maturing) dramatically.
>
> I also think Pienaar and Watson should be in the Antipodes, but there's
> still LOTS of time for them...
>
I really hope so, but if he is overlooked playing the way he is now, then it
will only come when White is no longer coach. If he is not being picked,
there must be an ulterior motive and with the public clamour for his
inclusion and the Boks new laager mentality, White is never going to back
down. And if the choice is White losing face, or the Boks losing a game, the
way things are developing it is obvious which one it will be.
Spizz
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072109 ] |
Wed, 12 July 2006 20:36 |
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"Neilsons" <matt.neilson [at] paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:44b49fa8 [at] clear.net.nz...
>
> "Geoff Muldoon" <geoff.muldoon [at] trap.gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1f1f3d3183905feb989828 [at] news.readfreenews.net...
>> quadhammerNO [at] SPICEDHAM says...
>>
>>> It's a bit confusing with the 6 & 7s of the South African numbering, so
>>> can
>>> someone more familiar with the 'bok loose forwards tell me who is
>>> actually
>>> going to play openside, even if they're wearing 6? And who's this Spies
>>> fellow, is he any good? I don't remember him playing in the S14.
>>
>> Courtesy of Wikipedia:
>>
>> "Pierre Johan Spies (born 8 June 1985 in Pretoria, South Africa) .... His
>> usual position is on the flank or at number 8, where he plays for the
>> Bulls in the international Super 14 competition. He has been included in
>> the Springboks' 2006 Tri Nations Series squad.
>>
>> Spies made his Super 12 debut on the against the Brumbies, becoming the
>> youngest player ever to represent the Bulls. After being injured in his
>> first ever Super 12 match, he made his comeback through the the national
>> under-21 league, where he scored nine tries in just six games. He made
>> his
>> debut for the Blue Bulls in 2005 in a match against the Griquas."
>>
>> Made his Blue Bulls debut as a winger.
>>
>> Height 194
>> Weight 104
>>
>> Most SA gossip I hear is that he'll wear No 6, so presumably (because of
>> the daft Bok numbering system) he'll be mainly playing open side.
>>
> I think his father was a Springbok winger.
>
> cheers, AMtt
Pierre Spies Senior did not make the Springboks.Very unlucky though.
He did represent the Nothethern Transvaal (The Bulls)with distinction in
the late 70s.
59 tries - Ok thats impressive.
In 49 matches - rtahts damn impressive
Senior was a damn good athlete as I recall. Hurdl;es or sprinter, not sure
which. Either way damn fast.
Senior is dead now. died at 53.
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072110 ] |
Wed, 12 July 2006 20:46 |
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"Neilsons" <matt.neilson [at] paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:44b4b866 [at] clear.net.nz...
>
> "Ferdi Greyling" <me [at] thisplace.co> wrote in message
> news:bla9b2hk282b95k2u1bofn45p07bqd4ipm [at] 4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 14:33:59 +1000, "Michael"
>> <quadhammerNO [at] SPICEDHAM</a<a href="mailto:> [at] hotmail.com" target="_blank">> [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> <<>AUSTRALIA: Chris Latham; Mark Gerrard, Stirling Mortlock, Matt
>> Giteau, Lote
>>>Tuqiri; Stephen Larkham, George Gregan (captain); Scott Fava, George
>>>Smith,
>>>Rocky Elsom; Dan Vickerman, Nathan Sharpe; Guy Shepherdson, Jeremy Paul,
>>>Greg Holmes. Replacements: Sean Hardman, Al Baxter, Mark Chisholm, Phil
>>>Waugh, Sam Cordingley, Mat Rogers, Clyde Rathbone.
>>>
>>>SOUTH AFRICA: Percy Montgomery; Akona Ndungane, Jaque Fourie, Wynard
>>>Olivier, Bryan Habana; Jaco van der Westhuyzen, Ricky Januarie; Pierre
>>>Spies, Juan Smith, Joe van Niekerk; Danie Rossouw, Victor Matfield; CJ
>>>van
>>>der Linde, John Smit (captain), Os du Randt. Replacements: Danie Coetzee,
>>>Eddie Andrews, Albert van der Berg, Jacques Cronje, Fourie du Preez,
>>>Meyer
>>>Bosman, Breyton Paulse.
>>>
>>>It's a bit confusing with the 6 & 7s of the South African numbering, so
>>>can
>>>someone more familiar with the 'bok loose forwards tell me who is
>>>actually
>>>going to play openside, even if they're wearing 6? And who's this Spies
>>>fellow, is he any good? I don't remember him playing in the S14. >>
>>
>>
>> With the absence of Schalk Burger, the Boks are actually without a
>> dedicated fetcher.
>> Joe van Niekerk has apparently been given the task to transform
>> himself into that. It is an experiment that will probably not work out
>> well as Van Niekerk is a blessed with skills to run and read the game,
>> but not to grind unseen.
>>
>> Juan Smith has a high work rate and does some fetching. He may fill in
>> some gaps there.
>>
>>
>> Spies is new. Bigish and fast. He played wing for SA u21 as well. But
>> he is also a typical SA flanker - big and fast and loves running with
>> the ball. But in tight international games there are not that many
>> chances to run freely with the ball. So it is still to be seen if he
>> can step up and offer value on test level.
>>
>> He started playing for the Bulls this year and may have had a run on
>> or so in the S14 but was not a starting player. He was goodish at the
>> recent u 21 WC - but once again, as a runner getting the ball in
>> space. What the Boks need, is not another runner (both Smith and Van
>> Niekerk are good runners as well) but another Schalk Burger.
>>
>> We have such a flank who has a huge work rate, tackles and wins balls
>> and has made a nice step up in his level of play this year. He is
>> probably - with Burger out - the best flank in SA in that role. He is
>> Luke Watson, these days WP's captain. But our coach apparently refuses
>> to pick him. The speculation is that the coach got angry at media
>> pressure to pick Watson and then made up his mind not to pick him.
>>
>> In the absence of good reasons from the coach himself, the rugby
>> followers in SA is going with that (only) explanation.
>>
> I thought there was more to it than that - perhaps some falling out with
> Luke's father, a former Springbok?
>
> cheers, aMtt
Cheeky Watson, Luke's dad did not play for the Springboks. He would have but
for his political an religious beliefs.
He forfeited a Springbok cap when he and Valence, abandoned their all white
province in order to play rugby for an all-black township team in protest at
the apartheid system. Take it from me, who was a young boy at that time,
that took guts.
I don't believe that there is any conspiracy wrt Luke's non selection. I
reckon Jake made a statement long ago and he is being a tad stubborn. Simple
as that.
Politically he would be really dumb to leave out the son of a 'struggle
friendly' player unless he really believed he was not good enough.
|
|
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072111 ] |
Wed, 12 July 2006 21:08 |
|
"Dave (SA)" <David.Baker [at] domainfollowsgilga.com> wrote in message
news:e93g1v$bbn$1 [at] ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
>
> "Neilsons" <matt.neilson [at] paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
> news:44b4b866 [at] clear.net.nz...
>>
>> "Ferdi Greyling" <me [at] thisplace.co> wrote in message
>> news:bla9b2hk282b95k2u1bofn45p07bqd4ipm [at] 4ax.com...
>>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 14:33:59 +1000, "Michael"
>>> <quadhammerNO [at] SPICEDHAM</a<a href="mailto:> [at] hotmail.com" target="_blank">> [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> <<>AUSTRALIA: Chris Latham; Mark Gerrard, Stirling Mortlock, Matt
>>> Giteau, Lote
>>>>Tuqiri; Stephen Larkham, George Gregan (captain); Scott Fava, George
>>>>Smith,
>>>>Rocky Elsom; Dan Vickerman, Nathan Sharpe; Guy Shepherdson, Jeremy Paul,
>>>>Greg Holmes. Replacements: Sean Hardman, Al Baxter, Mark Chisholm, Phil
>>>>Waugh, Sam Cordingley, Mat Rogers, Clyde Rathbone.
>>>>
>>>>SOUTH AFRICA: Percy Montgomery; Akona Ndungane, Jaque Fourie, Wynard
>>>>Olivier, Bryan Habana; Jaco van der Westhuyzen, Ricky Januarie; Pierre
>>>>Spies, Juan Smith, Joe van Niekerk; Danie Rossouw, Victor Matfield; CJ
>>>>van
>>>>der Linde, John Smit (captain), Os du Randt. Replacements: Danie
>>>>Coetzee,
>>>>Eddie Andrews, Albert van der Berg, Jacques Cronje, Fourie du Preez,
>>>>Meyer
>>>>Bosman, Breyton Paulse.
>>>>
>>>>It's a bit confusing with the 6 & 7s of the South African numbering, so
>>>>can
>>>>someone more familiar with the 'bok loose forwards tell me who is
>>>>actually
>>>>going to play openside, even if they're wearing 6? And who's this Spies
>>>>fellow, is he any good? I don't remember him playing in the S14. >>
>>>
>>>
>>> With the absence of Schalk Burger, the Boks are actually without a
>>> dedicated fetcher.
>>> Joe van Niekerk has apparently been given the task to transform
>>> himself into that. It is an experiment that will probably not work out
>>> well as Van Niekerk is a blessed with skills to run and read the game,
>>> but not to grind unseen.
>>>
>>> Juan Smith has a high work rate and does some fetching. He may fill in
>>> some gaps there.
>>>
>>>
>>> Spies is new. Bigish and fast. He played wing for SA u21 as well. But
>>> he is also a typical SA flanker - big and fast and loves running with
>>> the ball. But in tight international games there are not that many
>>> chances to run freely with the ball. So it is still to be seen if he
>>> can step up and offer value on test level.
>>>
>>> He started playing for the Bulls this year and may have had a run on
>>> or so in the S14 but was not a starting player. He was goodish at the
>>> recent u 21 WC - but once again, as a runner getting the ball in
>>> space. What the Boks need, is not another runner (both Smith and Van
>>> Niekerk are good runners as well) but another Schalk Burger.
>>>
>>> We have such a flank who has a huge work rate, tackles and wins balls
>>> and has made a nice step up in his level of play this year. He is
>>> probably - with Burger out - the best flank in SA in that role. He is
>>> Luke Watson, these days WP's captain. But our coach apparently refuses
>>> to pick him. The speculation is that the coach got angry at media
>>> pressure to pick Watson and then made up his mind not to pick him.
>>>
>>> In the absence of good reasons from the coach himself, the rugby
>>> followers in SA is going with that (only) explanation.
>>>
>> I thought there was more to it than that - perhaps some falling out with
>> Luke's father, a former Springbok?
>>
>> cheers, aMtt
> Cheeky Watson, Luke's dad did not play for the Springboks. He would have
> but for his political an religious beliefs.
> He forfeited a Springbok cap when he and Valence, abandoned their all
> white province in order to play rugby for an all-black township team in
> protest at the apartheid system. Take it from me, who was a young boy at
> that time, that took guts.
>
> I don't believe that there is any conspiracy wrt Luke's non selection. I
> reckon Jake made a statement long ago and he is being a tad stubborn.
> Simple as that.
> Politically he would be really dumb to leave out the son of a 'struggle
> friendly' player unless he really believed he was not good enough.
>
>
Two guys I work with, who play/played in the race troubled Boland super A,
are totally and utterly convinced this is the case. Mind you, every Bok
decision or selection is along race lines according to these guys.I agree
with you though, Jake is just being stubborn and it is a question of face
saving. The result that his public image is dropping quicker than Brian
O'Driscoll in a spear tackle.
Spizz
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072112 ] |
Wed, 12 July 2006 22:11 |
|
Dave (SA) wrote:
> Pierre Spies Senior did not make the Springboks.Very unlucky though.
> He did represent the Nothethern Transvaal (The Bulls)with distinction in
> the late 70s.
> 59 tries - Ok thats impressive.
> In 49 matches - rtahts damn impressive
>
> Senior was a damn good athlete as I recall. Hurdl;es or sprinter, not sure
> which.
Surely javelin :-)
Found this regarding Senior's rugby career:
http://www.planet-rugby.com/Tournaments/Currie_Cup/History/i ndex.shtml
"1977: Northern Transvaal vs Orange Free State, 27-12
Free State won Section 1, Northern Transvaal Section 2, and so they came
to Loftus for the final with 55 000 people to watch them.
Northern Transvaal started winning at the very first scrum. They shoved
the Free State to bits and in the process injured their captain and
hooker, Wouter Hugo who suffered concussion.
But the Free State remained determined and the boom-boom boot of De Wet
Ras gave them the lead till centre Christo Wagenaar raced through for a
try. At half-time Northern Transvaal led 9-3, a poor reward for all the
ball the forwards had presented to the backs, especially as Free State
were perhaps unlucky not to have scored a try through Hermanus
Potgieter, one that would have been referred to the television match
official in modern times..
To add to the visitors' woes Ras kicked so badly that Gysie Pienaar had
to take over.
*Pierre Spies* scored in this final as well when Gerrie Germishuys
knocked on and he picked up and raced away for Northern Transvaal's
third try.
Scorers
For Northern Transvaal:
Tries: Wagenaar, Daan du Plessis, *Spies*
Cons: Botha 3
Drop: Botha
Pens: Botha 2
For Free State:
Drop: Pienaar
Pens: Ras, Pienaar 2
Teams:
Northern Transvaal: Pierre Edwards, John Knox, Christo Wagenaar, Hein
Piater, *Pierre Spies*, Naas Botha, Tommy du Plessis, Wynand Claassen,
Burger Geldenhuys, Thys Lourens (captain), Louis Moolman, Moaner van
Heerden, Daan du Plessis, Willie Kahts, Nic Bezuidenhout
Orange Free State: Gysie Pienaar, Gerrie Germishuys, Edrich Krantz, Jan
Schlebusch, Hermanus Potgieter, De Wet Ras, Barry Wolmarans, Gerrie
Sonnekus, Eben Jansen, Theuns Stoffberg, Hennie Bekker, Ross van Reenen,
Martiens le Roux, Wouter Hugo (captain), Henning van Aswegen"
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072120 ] |
Thu, 13 July 2006 02:00 |
|
Ferdi says...
> with Burger out - the best flank in SA in that role. He is
> Luke Watson, these days WP's captain. But our coach apparently refuses
> to pick him. The speculation is that the coach got angry at media
> pressure to pick Watson and then made up his mind not to pick him.
>
> In the absence of good reasons from the coach himself, the rugby
> followers in SA is going with that (only) explanation.
Interesting excepts from a recent Errol Tobias article/interview:
"Twenty-five years on from this bold step and race is as much a part of
rugby as it ever was. The president of the South African Rugby Union,
Oregon Hoskins, was recently stood in front of a parliamentary committee
and required to justify Jake White's squad selection. Hoskins insisted
that the quota system no longer prevails at national level, "because it is
not needed" but still the president was asked to account for the absence
of either of the Ndungane twins, two exciting wingers, and a host of other
non-white players.
But this is South Africa, so nothing is ever simple. Hoskins also found
himself in the uncomfortable position of defending a black players'
selection over a white one when the politicians demanded to know why
flanker Solly Tyibilika had been picked for White's training squad ahead
of Western's Province's new captain Luke Watson.
Watson is the son of Cheeky Watson, another famous figure in the fight
against apartheid. A staunch Christian, Cheeky Watson is generally
recognised to have forfeited a Springbok cap when he and Valence, two of
four brothers, took the unprecedented step of abandoning their province in
order to play rugby for an all-black township team in protest at the
apartheid system.
The move created almost as much mayhem as Tobias' election to the
Springboks. The ANC politicians made it clear to Hoskins that they
suspected Watson Jnr was being punished for his father's role in what is
refereed to as "struggle rugby" and even Tobias suspects that there is
something between Jake White and the Watsons that we don't know about."
The last line is the interesting bit.
Geoff M
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072145 ] |
Thu, 13 July 2006 09:56 |
|
On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 20:36:09 +0200, "Dave \(SA\)"
<David.Baker [at] domainfollowsgilga.com> wrote:
<<>Senior was a damn good athlete as I recall. Hurdl;es or sprinter,
not sure
>which. Either way damn fast.
>Senior is dead now. died at 53.>>
Hurdles
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072146 ] |
Thu, 13 July 2006 09:58 |
|
On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 20:46:11 +0200, "Dave \(SA\)"
<David.Baker [at] domainfollowsgilga.com> wrote:
<<>> cheers, aMtt
>Cheeky Watson, Luke's dad did not play for the Springboks. He would have but
>for his political an religious beliefs.
>He forfeited a Springbok cap when he and Valence, abandoned their all white
>province in order to play rugby for an all-black township team in protest at
>the apartheid system. Take it from me, who was a young boy at that time,
>that took guts.
>
>I don't believe that there is any conspiracy wrt Luke's non selection. I
>reckon Jake made a statement long ago and he is being a tad stubborn. Simple
>as that.>>
Indeed. But that stubborness seems to be becoming a problem now.
By the way, I am not sure that Cheecky Watson was more than an
provincial wing. Who were the Bok wings in his time?
Carel du Plessis was one, I think.
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072147 ] |
Thu, 13 July 2006 10:03 |
|
On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 21:08:22 +0200, "Spizz" <spizz_uk [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:
<<>Two guys I work with, who play/played in the race troubled Boland
super A,
>are totally and utterly convinced this is the case. Mind you, every Bok
>decision or selection is along race lines according to these guys.I agree
>with you though, Jake is just being stubborn and it is a question of face
>saving. The result that his public image is dropping quicker than Brian
>O'Driscoll in a spear tackle.>>
Yes. When the Watson clamour firts started among fans, he was playing
for the Sharks. He was a good runner then, but tended to lose the ball
in tackles. Too many times. He either knocked it on or could not lay
it back. He was not ready for tests then. Plus Schalk Burger was in
full flight and Watson was always competing with Burger in the Bok
side.
That was when Jake first reacted with irritation.
Now it is different - Schalk is out and Watson has actually liftes his
game this season plus he seemed to have ironed out his ball retention
problems.
He now needs to be in at least the bigger Bok squad.
Also Ruan Pienaar - probably more so, as Pienaar has had 3 seasons of
excelent top rugby behind him, two great ones on no 9 and one Ok one
on no 10.
He is not picked either. Yet his father was on the other side of the
political divide in SA.
This is a Jake problem, not a political one.
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072154 ] |
Thu, 13 July 2006 10:42 |
|
Ferdi Greyling wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 21:08:22 +0200, "Spizz" <spizz_uk [at] hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> <<>Two guys I work with, who play/played in the race troubled Boland
> super A,
> >are totally and utterly convinced this is the case. Mind you, every Bok
> >decision or selection is along race lines according to these guys.I agree
> >with you though, Jake is just being stubborn and it is a question of face
> >saving. The result that his public image is dropping quicker than Brian
> >O'Driscoll in a spear tackle.>>
>
> Yes. When the Watson clamour firts started among fans, he was playing
> for the Sharks. He was a good runner then, but tended to lose the ball
> in tackles. Too many times. He either knocked it on or could not lay
> it back. He was not ready for tests then. Plus Schalk Burger was in
> full flight and Watson was always competing with Burger in the Bok
> side.
>
> That was when Jake first reacted with irritation.
>
> Now it is different - Schalk is out and Watson has actually liftes his
> game this season plus he seemed to have ironed out his ball retention
> problems.
>
> He now needs to be in at least the bigger Bok squad.
>
> Also Ruan Pienaar - probably more so, as Pienaar has had 3 seasons of
> excelent top rugby behind him, two great ones on no 9 and one Ok one
> on no 10.
>
> He is not picked either. Yet his father was on the other side of the
> political divide in SA.
>
> This is a Jake problem, not a political one.
Watch Januarie / Du Preez have blinders during the 3N and prove that
it's a South African rugby supporter problem and neither a political
nor Jake problem.
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072156 ] |
Thu, 13 July 2006 11:24 |
|
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 10:00:55 +1000, Geoff Muldoon
<geoff.muldoon [at] trap.gmail.com> wrote:
<<>The move created almost as much mayhem as Tobias' election to the
>Springboks. The ANC politicians made it clear to Hoskins that they
>suspected Watson Jnr was being punished for his father's role in what is
>refereed to as "struggle rugby" and even Tobias suspects that there is
>something between Jake White and the Watsons that we don't know about.">>
How would you then interpret the following:
1. Solly, who is picked ahead of Watson, is black. His father was a
victim of apartheid and also against the apartheid govt.
2. The biggest talent in SA not being picked by White is not Watson,
but Ruan Pienaar - who's father was Gysie Pienaar who played for the
(white) Springboks at the same time that Watson sr. was playing for a
black club.
Watson not being picked is not political. It is some other stupidity.
I would not be surprised if it has - among othjer reasons - to do with
the stupid obsession that SA coaches has with blackboard analysis of
games and pre conceived ideas of "phases of play" and body type
players.
Thus White is looking for big wings. So he does not regard Brent
Russel, but imports an aging, slow hulk in the form of Andre Snyman
from the UK.
The list that White refuses to select - against what many rugby
supporters regard as reason seems to be: Ruan Pienaar, Luke Watson,
Cobus Visagie, Schalk Britz, Morne Steyn and Conrad Jantjes.
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072157 ] |
Thu, 13 July 2006 11:37 |
|
On 13 Jul 2006 01:42:51 -0700, "LiB" <scary [at] executivemail.co.za>
wrote:
<<atch Januarie / Du Preez have blinders during the 3N and prove that
>it's a South African rugby supporter problem and neither a political
>nor Jake problem.>>
Du Preez playing a blinder, heh?
Is that your prediction?
You mean, he will get the bit of speed back he had before the knee
problems and he will suddenly have learned to read the game? And he
will actually be at the points of break down and he will have learned
to pass the ball to his no 10 instead of moering it out backwards? And
he suddenly again start tackling? That will be nice as he has last
done that about three seasons ago.
|
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072199 ] |
Thu, 13 July 2006 20:22 |
|
"Ferdi Greyling" <me [at] thisplace.co> wrote in message
news:6t4cb2lmjtah36lslcmr8arfiac7sftp3l [at] 4ax.com...
> On 13 Jul 2006 01:42:51 -0700, "LiB" <scary [at] executivemail.co.za>
> wrote:
>
>
> <<atch Januarie / Du Preez have blinders during the 3N and prove that
>>it's a South African rugby supporter problem and neither a political
>>nor Jake problem.>>
>
> Du Preez playing a blinder, heh?
> Is that your prediction?
>
> You mean, he will get the bit of speed back he had before the knee
> problems and he will suddenly have learned to read the game? And he
> will actually be at the points of break down and he will have learned
> to pass the ball to his no 10 instead of moering it out backwards? And
> he suddenly again start tackling? That will be nice as he has last
> done that about three seasons ago.
Jake is on record as saying he has been influenced by SCW and his policy of
consistent selection of the same group of players in the run up to England
winning the world cup. He is trying to emulate this by sticking by the same
players who started with 3 years ago and rewarded him with the 3N. Although
this obviously comes at the expense of form, it explains the inclusion of
Jaco, Du Preez, Barry, Joubert and Andrews in every squad whether they are
playing well or not.
What I don't understand though, is that he has picked form players now and
again like Januarie, Pretorius and Olivier, but has overlooked obvious
others like Watson, Pienaar and Gary Botha. Then come the untested Bosman
and Spies, who are uncharacteristically thrown in at the deep end. Even when
injuries occur, the policy seems to be to play a 'favourite' out of position
rather than risk being seen to listen to public opinion.
Of course I want the Boks to play well and win on Saturday, but it has been
very odd the last few weeks as everyone seems to be discussing more who
hasn't been picked rather than who has. I am honestly looking forward to the
WP v Cheetahs game on Saturday more than the Boks v Aus. Even my 10 year old
daughter wants to come to the game with me and my son such is the
anticipation in my house. As long as I buy her a flag of course.
Prrrooooooooovince.....
Spizz
|
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072216 ] |
Fri, 14 July 2006 01:35 |
|
Ferdi says...
> <<>The move created almost as much mayhem as Tobias' election to the
> >Springboks. The ANC politicians made it clear to Hoskins that they
> >suspected Watson Jnr was being punished for his father's role in what is
> >refereed to as "struggle rugby" and even Tobias suspects that there is
> >something between Jake White and the Watsons that we don't know about.">>
>
> How would you then interpret the following:
>
> 1. Solly, who is picked ahead of Watson, is black. His father was a
> victim of apartheid and also against the apartheid govt.
>
> 2. The biggest talent in SA not being picked by White is not Watson,
> but Ruan Pienaar - who's father was Gysie Pienaar who played for the
> (white) Springboks at the same time that Watson sr. was playing for a
> black club.
>
> Watson not being picked is not political. It is some other stupidity.
Ferdi,
Not implying that it is necessarily political.
> I would not be surprised if it has - among othjer reasons - to do with
> the stupid obsession that SA coaches has with blackboard analysis of
> games and pre conceived ideas of "phases of play" and body type
> players.
Still not sure that this would be the "something between Jake White and
the Watsons that we don't know about" that is mentioned in the article,
which seems to suggest some personal/family animosity rather than a
technical issue.
Geoff M
|
|
|
| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072257 ] |
Fri, 14 July 2006 09:08 |
|
"Geoff Muldoon" <geoff.muldoon [at] trap.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1f2183b33e0202298982c [at] news.readfreenews.net...
> Ferdi says...
>
>> <<>The move created almost as much mayhem as Tobias' election to the
>> >Springboks. The ANC politicians made it clear to Hoskins that they
>> >suspected Watson Jnr was being punished for his father's role in what is
>> >refereed to as "struggle rugby" and even Tobias suspects that there is
>> >something between Jake White and the Watsons that we don't know
>> >about.">>
>>
>> How would you then interpret the following:
>>
>> 1. Solly, who is picked ahead of Watson, is black. His father was a
>> victim of apartheid and also against the apartheid govt.
>>
>> 2. The biggest talent in SA not being picked by White is not Watson,
>> but Ruan Pienaar - who's father was Gysie Pienaar who played for the
>> (white) Springboks at the same time that Watson sr. was playing for a
>> black club.
>>
>> Watson not being picked is not political. It is some other stupidity.
>
> Ferdi,
>
> Not implying that it is necessarily political.
>
>> I would not be surprised if it has - among othjer reasons - to do with
>> the stupid obsession that SA coaches has with blackboard analysis of
>> games and pre conceived ideas of "phases of play" and body type
>> players.
>
> Still not sure that this would be the "something between Jake White and
> the Watsons that we don't know about" that is mentioned in the article,
> which seems to suggest some personal/family animosity rather than a
> technical issue.
>
> Geoff M
The so-called personality conflict is hyped by the Cape Town press (where I
live).
Luke is a Western Province boy now and the Western Province press reckon
that the Bok side should contain 15 Western Province players.
The only Blue Bulls needed would be to carry baggage, act as tackling bags
and to bring on the half time oranges.
Outside Western Province la la land the people are a little more sensible.
Some believe, as I do (I am a Sharks boy btw) that Luke should be in the
side (esp. in absence of Schalk Burger)
I give Jake more credit than it being a personality conflict.
He may be stubbornluy hanging on his original badly considered statement but
clash? No I don't believe it. Conspiracy theory.
|
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072288 ] |
Fri, 14 July 2006 15:35 |
|
On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 09:35:03 +1000, Geoff Muldoon
<geoff.muldoon [at] trap.gmail.com> wrote:
<<>Still not sure that this would be the "something between Jake White
and
>the Watsons that we don't know about" that is mentioned in the article,
>which seems to suggest some personal/family animosity rather than a
>technical issue.>>
I would stay away from that as I have not heard it mentioned anywhere
else (and the rugby fraternity is close knit here as well).
There are many other, much more likely, reasons.
Even geography will argue against it. The Watsons are from Port
Elizabeth while White is (as far as I know) from Johannesburg. And
that is 1 200 km (and worlds) apart.
|
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| Re: Bok & Wallaby teams [message #1072289 ] |
Fri, 14 July 2006 15:38 |
|
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 20:22:47 +0200, "Spizz" <spizz_uk [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:
<<Of course I want the Boks to play well and win on Saturday, but it
has been
>very odd the last few weeks as everyone seems to be discussing more who
>hasn't been picked rather than who has. I am honestly looking forward to the
>WP v Cheetahs game on Saturday more than the Boks v Aus. Even my 10 year old
>daughter wants to come to the game with me and my son such is the
>anticipation in my house. As long as I buy her a flag of course.
>
>Prrrooooooooovince.....>>
Yeah. Both teams are playing nice rugby.
Interesting also after WP showed how to take the Bulls apart.
Regarding White and consistancy. Consistancy is one thing but another
if it is done with the second string!
Reason surely dictates that 1. the consistancy is doen with the best
squad and 2. when a player is getting too old - to the point that he
becomes a liability - you don't include him anymore.
Ortherwise we can do consistancy with Frik du Prees, hannes Marais
etc.
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