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Sports » rec.sport.golf » Amateur Tournies--I give up
| Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069096] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 21:15 |
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I played in 7 amateur tournaments here in SE michigan during the year,
and I'm about to pack it in. I get KILLED in these things because some
15 or 16 index always seems to shoot an 80. For me to match that, I'd
have to shoot 68 or 69. If I could do that, I sure wouldn't be playing
in amateur tournaments.
Played in a 2 man best ball today, and while my partner sucked, I shot
77, for a net 73. I'm currently a 5, but they use your best index from
the last 12 months. Our team shot a net 70 (like I said, my partner
sucked), but you had to be at around 66 or 67 to qualify for the next
round (top 11 of 44 teams). But there were SEVERAL scores that are
62-63 range, which I think is ridiculous.
You only shoot your handicap 1 of every 5 rounds. So 1 of every 25
rounds you and your partner will shoot your handicap. That should work
out to 2 teams in a 44 team event.
I'm just ranting because I'm tired of the sandbagging (read: Cheating)
that goes on.
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069099 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 21:33 |
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"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1152731708.062277.221480 [at] i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> You only shoot your handicap 1 of every 5 rounds. So 1 of every 25
> rounds you and your partner will shoot your handicap. That should work
> out to 2 teams in a 44 team event.
I think your math is flawed. In a best ball you get the additional benefit
of only counting the better ball. If you play 2 rounds on the same course
and then pick out your better ball from the two rounds on each hole I think
you'll find that the best ball score will match or better your handicap much
more than 1 in 5 times let alone 1 in 25, even with the 90% adjustment.
Which is not to say that I don't sympathize with your plight. I wish we had
the British system where only tournament rounds counted towards handicap.
There's too much sandbagging.
Rich
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069102 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 21:44 |
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On 12 Jul 2006 12:15:08 -0700, "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002 [at] yahoo.com>
wrote:
>I played in 7 amateur tournaments here in SE michigan during the year,
>and I'm about to pack it in. I get KILLED in these things because some
>15 or 16 index always seems to shoot an 80. For me to match that, I'd
>have to shoot 68 or 69. If I could do that, I sure wouldn't be playing
>in amateur tournaments.
>
>Played in a 2 man best ball today, and while my partner sucked, I shot
>77, for a net 73. I'm currently a 5, but they use your best index from
>the last 12 months. Our team shot a net 70 (like I said, my partner
>sucked), but you had to be at around 66 or 67 to qualify for the next
>round (top 11 of 44 teams). But there were SEVERAL scores that are
>62-63 range, which I think is ridiculous.
>
>You only shoot your handicap 1 of every 5 rounds. So 1 of every 25
>rounds you and your partner will shoot your handicap. That should work
>out to 2 teams in a 44 team event.
>
>I'm just ranting because I'm tired of the sandbagging (read: Cheating)
>that goes on.
Most of the tournaments we have around here have both a gross and net
dilvision. That helps get rid of some of the high handicapped
sandbaggers.
___,
\o
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/ \
.
“Someone likes every shot”
bk
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069104 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 21:48 |
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rich wrote:
> "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1152731708.062277.221480 [at] i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> > You only shoot your handicap 1 of every 5 rounds. So 1 of every 25
> > rounds you and your partner will shoot your handicap. That should work
> > out to 2 teams in a 44 team event.
>
> I think your math is flawed. In a best ball you get the additional benefit
> of only counting the better ball.
Right, all I'm saying is that for someone to shoot 65 in a best ball
(which is -6), it seems to me both guys better be shooting to their
handicap or better (which would be 1 in 25 times), and be staggering
their good and bad scores on the proper stroke holes.
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069105 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 21:49 |
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On 12 Jul 2006 12:15:08 -0700, "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002 [at] yahoo.com>
wrote:
>I played in 7 amateur tournaments here in SE michigan during the year,
>and I'm about to pack it in. I get KILLED in these things because some
>15 or 16 index always seems to shoot an 80. For me to match that, I'd
>have to shoot 68 or 69. If I could do that, I sure wouldn't be playing
>in amateur tournaments.
What is your reason for playing in tournaments? If it's to get the
net prize, then you should quit. If it's to compete with people of
different abilities in tournament conditions, then what you need to do
is to learn to not mind what other players do.
Alternatively, you could join tournaments where the prizes are smaller
or where players who win get bumped up into better flights.
A lot of golf is the head game. I'm finding I'm not nearly as poor
of a player when I play match play - because I don't allow my head to
get messed up as much in match play. I keep reading about pro
players who had temper fits when they were teens until they finally
learned to control their responses. It seems to be a very important
skill to acquire to get better.
Consider creating a goal for yourself of not letting their sandbagging
get to you. This could accomplish two things:
1. You enjoy yourself more.
2. You play better.
(I'm going to spend more effort at working at this goal - I know my
emotions haven't yet been optimized yet to winning at this game).
========================
On another track - I see far more vanity handicaps in the USGA system
than sandbagging handicaps. But I don't play where prizes are large.
Still, let's say that the handicaps are honest, and everybody plays
just as well in tournaments as otherwise. If your tournament has
20 players, you would expect each person to win (net) somewhere around
5% of the time. That's not very often. How many different
players won during your 7 tournaments?
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069106 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 21:49 |
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> Most of the tournaments we have around here have both a gross and net
> dilvision. That helps get rid of some of the high handicapped
> sandbaggers.
What I'd like to see, at least for the single man events, is to have it
flighted, and then the flight play straight up.
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069107 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 21:50 |
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How does a gross division get rid of net sandbaggers? Fewer net players may
mean a less lucrative pay day, but if the money is big enough net
sandbaggers will find you every time.
"Bobby Knight" <bknight [at] conramp.net> wrote in message
news:47kab2hmjo27gssb1and0q49vfngmm41su [at] 4ax.com...
> On 12 Jul 2006 12:15:08 -0700, "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002 [at] yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>I played in 7 amateur tournaments here in SE michigan during the year,
>>and I'm about to pack it in. I get KILLED in these things because some
>>15 or 16 index always seems to shoot an 80. For me to match that, I'd
>>have to shoot 68 or 69. If I could do that, I sure wouldn't be playing
>>in amateur tournaments.
>>
>>Played in a 2 man best ball today, and while my partner sucked, I shot
>>77, for a net 73. I'm currently a 5, but they use your best index from
>>the last 12 months. Our team shot a net 70 (like I said, my partner
>>sucked), but you had to be at around 66 or 67 to qualify for the next
>>round (top 11 of 44 teams). But there were SEVERAL scores that are
>>62-63 range, which I think is ridiculous.
>>
>>You only shoot your handicap 1 of every 5 rounds. So 1 of every 25
>>rounds you and your partner will shoot your handicap. That should work
>>out to 2 teams in a 44 team event.
>>
>>I'm just ranting because I'm tired of the sandbagging (read: Cheating)
>>that goes on.
>
> Most of the tournaments we have around here have both a gross and net
> dilvision. That helps get rid of some of the high handicapped
> sandbaggers.
> ___,
> \o
> |
> / \
> .
> "Someone likes every shot"
> bk
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069111 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 21:57 |
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Going by the numbers alone, 62 or 63 for two man net best ball isn't
ridiculous. Depending on the field, it is highly probable that the middle
guys with 10 to 16 handicaps are the killers. One of them could be paring
most every hole and using their handicaps to get a net bird.
Long ago, my Dad told me never pay more than $5 to enter a tournament with
strangers. Fifty years later, I still follow Dad's advice.
"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1152731708.062277.221480 [at] i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I played in 7 amateur tournaments here in SE michigan during the year,
> and I'm about to pack it in. I get KILLED in these things because some
> 15 or 16 index always seems to shoot an 80. For me to match that, I'd
> have to shoot 68 or 69. If I could do that, I sure wouldn't be playing
> in amateur tournaments.
>
> Played in a 2 man best ball today, and while my partner sucked, I shot
> 77, for a net 73. I'm currently a 5, but they use your best index from
> the last 12 months. Our team shot a net 70 (like I said, my partner
> sucked), but you had to be at around 66 or 67 to qualify for the next
> round (top 11 of 44 teams). But there were SEVERAL scores that are
> 62-63 range, which I think is ridiculous.
>
> You only shoot your handicap 1 of every 5 rounds. So 1 of every 25
> rounds you and your partner will shoot your handicap. That should work
> out to 2 teams in a 44 team event.
>
> I'm just ranting because I'm tired of the sandbagging (read: Cheating)
> that goes on.
>
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069112 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 22:00 |
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On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 15:50:23 -0400, "sfb" <sfb [at] spam.net> wrote:
>How does a gross division get rid of net sandbaggers? Fewer net players may
>mean a less lucrative pay day, but if the money is big enough net
>sandbaggers will find you every time.
>
You're right, but my reply was more to Larry Bud's complaint about low
handicaps having to deal with high handicapped sandbaggers.
I only play in tournaments at my club, where all the contestants are
known to me. Our pro is diligent about watching for would be
sandbaggers. If someone comes in with a handful of cards from away
play, they had better reflect something close to his handicap or
they'll never get posted.
___,
\o
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/ \
.
“Someone likes every shot”
bk
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069113 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 22:05 |
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Larry Bud wrote:
> What I'd like to see, at least for the single man events, is to have it
> flighted, and then the flight play straight up.
But then the sandbaggers will go into worse flights and win every time.
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069114 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 22:06 |
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The USGA guestimates for 1 man 1 ball 1 score shooting better than your
handicap don't apply to two man best ball. If for nothing else, all the
risk reward course management strategies go out the window such as one
player putting the ball in the middle of the green on a par 3 allowing the
partner to go after the tough pin tucked in the corner.
"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1152733689.383585.141770 [at] s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> rich wrote:
>> "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1152731708.062277.221480 [at] i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > You only shoot your handicap 1 of every 5 rounds. So 1 of every 25
>> > rounds you and your partner will shoot your handicap. That should work
>> > out to 2 teams in a 44 team event.
>>
>> I think your math is flawed. In a best ball you get the additional
>> benefit
>> of only counting the better ball.
>
> Right, all I'm saying is that for someone to shoot 65 in a best ball
> (which is -6), it seems to me both guys better be shooting to their
> handicap or better (which would be 1 in 25 times), and be staggering
> their good and bad scores on the proper stroke holes.
>
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069115 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 22:10 |
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On 12 Jul 2006 13:05:25 -0700, "Jack™" <sailkid2000 [at] gmail.com> wrote:
>> What I'd like to see, at least for the single man events, is to have it
>> flighted, and then the flight play straight up.
>
>But then the sandbaggers will go into worse flights and win every time.
Use the handicaps to set the initial flights. But use results to
modify the flights.
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069116 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 22:16 |
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Have you always had suicidal tendencies? Any results based attempt to move
players between flights in the middle of a tournament is a riot looking for
place to happen.
"Howard Brazee" <howard [at] brazee.net> wrote in message
news:2olab2t78cqj3penj3i5pa1bvaumvhoopu [at] 4ax.com...
> On 12 Jul 2006 13:05:25 -0700, "JackT" <sailkid2000 [at] gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> What I'd like to see, at least for the single man events, is to have it
>>> flighted, and then the flight play straight up.
>>
>>But then the sandbaggers will go into worse flights and win every time.
>
> Use the handicaps to set the initial flights. But use results to
> modify the flights.
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069118 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 22:17 |
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Jack=99 wrote:
> Larry Bud wrote:
> > What I'd like to see, at least for the single man events, is to have it
> > flighted, and then the flight play straight up.
>
> But then the sandbaggers will go into worse flights and win every time.
I don't believe I know you. ;-)
So let 'em drop down there. Make that flight's prize less
prestigious/valuable, etc. If they place well due to their sandbagging,
they get bumbed up a flight for the next tourney. i.e. They make a
habit out of it, they filter up to their real competitive level over
time.
I personally like the flighting idea because we are all cabable of
several strokes either direction of our handicap. Probably the same
reason some of the more seasoned RSG'rs won't give strokes in beer
matches.
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069119 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 22:25 |
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If everybody pays the same entry fee, then each flight plays for the same
prizes. No volunteer committee deserves the hassle of different bucks for
different strokes.
"dugjustdug" <prestigerealty [at] yvn.com> wrote in message
news:1152735437.776762.95830 [at] b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
JackT wrote:
> Larry Bud wrote:
> > What I'd like to see, at least for the single man events, is to have it
> > flighted, and then the flight play straight up.
>
> But then the sandbaggers will go into worse flights and win every time.
I don't believe I know you. ;-)
So let 'em drop down there. Make that flight's prize less
prestigious/valuable, etc. If they place well due to their sandbagging,
they get bumbed up a flight for the next tourney. i.e. They make a
habit out of it, they filter up to their real competitive level over
time.
I personally like the flighting idea because we are all cabable of
several strokes either direction of our handicap. Probably the same
reason some of the more seasoned RSG'rs won't give strokes in beer
matches.
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069120 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 22:27 |
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On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 16:16:18 -0400, "sfb" <sfb [at] spam.net> wrote:
>Have you always had suicidal tendencies? Any results based attempt to move
>players between flights in the middle of a tournament is a riot looking for
>place to happen.
Such moves should be done between tournaments.
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069121 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 22:27 |
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dugjustdug wrote:
> I personally like the flighting idea because we are all cabable of
> several strokes either direction of our handicap. Probably the same
> reason some of the more seasoned RSG'rs won't give strokes in beer
> matches.
Eggs Act Lee.
Far easier for a "12" to shoot 2 better than his/her handicap than it
is for a "2" to do that.
And in Beer Matches, giving 10 pops to a "12" is suicide.
Besides, Beer Matches are "match play" and I never give full handicap
in match play, that's more suicide.
If you want my Beer, you'll play me straight up or perhaps you'll get
2/side...if you don't like that, buy your own Beer :)
Tex
who's now a +0.3 and going lower, or is that higher?
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069123 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 22:28 |
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sfb wrote:
> If everybody pays the same entry fee, then each flight plays for the same
> prizes. No volunteer committee deserves the hassle of different bucks for
> different strokes.
Not taking away from the point you make. My comment was meant as more
of an incentive to improve (or show your true ability in the case of an
SB'r) - nothing more.
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069124 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 22:31 |
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On 12 Jul 2006 13:17:17 -0700, "dugjustdug" <prestigerealty [at] yvn.com>
wrote:
>I personally like the flighting idea because we are all cabable of
>several strokes either direction of our handicap. Probably the same
>reason some of the more seasoned RSG'rs won't give strokes in beer
>matches.
In the club championship, there is a scratch flight of anybody who
chooses to play it. It determines the *real* champion, regardless of
what scores anybody else has. If I enter a handicapped flight and
shoot a 59, that's my tough luck - I should have had enough confidence
to enter the scratch flight. We also have flighted handicap
groups, and an overall net champion, but none of these get their name
on engraved on the wall.
In regular tournaments, only the flighted handicap groups are tracked.
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069125 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 22:37 |
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dugjustdug wrote:
> Jack™ wrote:
>
>>Larry Bud wrote:
>>
>>>What I'd like to see, at least for the single man events, is to have it
>>>flighted, and then the flight play straight up.
>>
>>But then the sandbaggers will go into worse flights and win every time.
>
>
> I don't believe I know you. ;-)
>
> So let 'em drop down there. Make that flight's prize less
> prestigious/valuable, etc. If they place well due to their sandbagging,
> they get bumbed up a flight for the next tourney. i.e. They make a
> habit out of it, they filter up to their real competitive level over
> time.
>
> I personally like the flighting idea because we are all cabable of
> several strokes either direction of our handicap.
> Probably the same
> reason some of the more seasoned RSG'rs won't give strokes in beer
> matches.
Like Tex said.
David
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069128 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 22:55 |
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Howard Brazee wrote:
> On 12 Jul 2006 12:15:08 -0700, "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002 [at] yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I played in 7 amateur tournaments here in SE michigan during the year,
> >and I'm about to pack it in. I get KILLED in these things because some
> >15 or 16 index always seems to shoot an 80. For me to match that, I'd
> >have to shoot 68 or 69. If I could do that, I sure wouldn't be playing
> >in amateur tournaments.
>
> What is your reason for playing in tournaments? If it's to get the
> net prize, then you should quit. If it's to compete with people of
> different abilities in tournament conditions, then what you need to do
> is to learn to not mind what other players do.
The reason is to play competitive golf where there's pressure and
everyone plays by the same rules. It matters what those other players
do, I'm competing against them. otherwise I'd just shoot against the
course rating or against another buddy like I normally do.
> If your tournament has
> 20 players, you would expect each person to win (net) somewhere around
> 5% of the time. That's not very often. How many different
> players won during your 7 tournaments?
I think top 5 or top 10 would be a better indication of the
sandbaggers. On one of the tours, there are several players who it's
obvious don't post all of their scores (especially when their
tournament score is missing!). I've complained to the committee, I've
even complained to the GAM (golf assoc of michigan) who oversees all
golf activities in Michigan. The committee ignores the complaints, and
the GAM says talk to the committee.
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069130 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 23:11 |
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On 12 Jul 2006 13:17:17 -0700, "dugjustdug" <prestigerealty [at] yvn.com>
wrote:
>
>Jack™ wrote:
>> Larry Bud wrote:
>> > What I'd like to see, at least for the single man events, is to have it
>> > flighted, and then the flight play straight up.
>>
>> But then the sandbaggers will go into worse flights and win every time.
>
>I don't believe I know you. ;-)
>
>So let 'em drop down there. Make that flight's prize less
>prestigious/valuable, etc. If they place well due to their sandbagging,
>they get bumbed up a flight for the next tourney. i.e. They make a
>habit out of it, they filter up to their real competitive level over
>time.
>
>I personally like the flighting idea because we are all cabable of
>several strokes either direction of our handicap. Probably the same
>reason some of the more seasoned RSG'rs won't give strokes in beer
>matches.
Correction -- Koenig gives me two a side.
--
jvdp
Sold myself to go to Scotland
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069133 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 23:34 |
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John van der Pflum wrote:
> On 12 Jul 2006 13:17:17 -0700, "dugjustdug" <prestigerealty [at] yvn.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Jack=99 wrote:
> >> Larry Bud wrote:
> >> > What I'd like to see, at least for the single man events, is to have=
it
> >> > flighted, and then the flight play straight up.
> >>
> >> But then the sandbaggers will go into worse flights and win every time.
> >
> >I don't believe I know you. ;-)
> >
> >So let 'em drop down there. Make that flight's prize less
> >prestigious/valuable, etc. If they place well due to their sandbagging,
> >they get bumbed up a flight for the next tourney. i.e. They make a
> >habit out of it, they filter up to their real competitive level over
> >time.
> >
> >I personally like the flighting idea because we are all cabable of
> >several strokes either direction of our handicap. Probably the same
> >reason some of the more seasoned RSG'rs won't give strokes in beer
> >matches.
>
> Correction -- Koenig gives me two a side.
Yup, only because you are thin and you can't afford to lose because
your daughter won't be able to go to private school. :)
Tex
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069136 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 23:48 |
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On 2006-07-12 15:48:09 -0400, "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002 [at] yahoo.com> said:
>
> rich wrote:
>> "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1152731708.062277.221480 [at] i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> You only shoot your handicap 1 of every 5 rounds. So 1 of every 25
>>> rounds you and your partner will shoot your handicap. That should work
>>> out to 2 teams in a 44 team event.
>>
>> I think your math is flawed. In a best ball you get the additional benefit
>> of only counting the better ball.
>
> Right, all I'm saying is that for someone to shoot 65 in a best ball
> (which is -6), it seems to me both guys better be shooting to their
> handicap or better (which would be 1 in 25 times), and be staggering
> their good and bad scores on the proper stroke holes.
That's just it, in a best ball neither guy has to shoot to his handicap
or better. The classic ham and egg method works, as long as one guy
gets a par (net birdie) on their handicap holes, the other one can make
triple bogey without hurting the team score.
I played a match one time where my partner and I both shot 97. But
everytime he triple bogied a hole, or worse, I would make par, and vice
versa. With handicap strokes, I think we were around a 14 and a 17 at
the time, we were well under par, though no where near winning.
It happens a lot. Of course sandbagging happens a lot as well.
gary hayenga
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069139 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 23:57 |
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Larry Bud wrote:
> I played in 7 amateur tournaments here in SE michigan during the year,
> and I'm about to pack it in. I get KILLED in these things because some
> 15 or 16 index always seems to shoot an 80. For me to match that, I'd
> have to shoot 68 or 69. If I could do that, I sure wouldn't be playing
> in amateur tournaments.
>
> Played in a 2 man best ball today, and while my partner sucked, I shot
> 77, for a net 73. I'm currently a 5, but they use your best index from
> the last 12 months. Our team shot a net 70 (like I said, my partner
> sucked), but you had to be at around 66 or 67 to qualify for the next
> round (top 11 of 44 teams). But there were SEVERAL scores that are
> 62-63 range, which I think is ridiculous.
>
> You only shoot your handicap 1 of every 5 rounds. So 1 of every 25
> rounds you and your partner will shoot your handicap. That should work
> out to 2 teams in a 44 team event.
>
> I'm just ranting because I'm tired of the sandbagging (read: Cheating)
> that goes on.
>
Did you play with full handicaps?
From the USGA regarding handicaps in best ball matches:
Stroke Play
* Four-ball stroke play, where two competitors play as partners and
their lower score is that side's score for the hole: men receive 90% of
their Course Handicaps; women get 95% of their Course Handicaps. The
USGA recommends that the spread between partners' Course Handicaps be
limited to eight strokes. If the spread is greater, reduce all Course
Handicaps by an additional 10%. USGA studies have shown that teams with
a wide handicap spread will have an unfair advantage.
Joe
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069144 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 00:56 |
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Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069145 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 01:00 |
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Joe wrote:
> Larry Bud wrote:
> > I played in 7 amateur tournaments here in SE michigan during the year,
> > and I'm about to pack it in. I get KILLED in these things because some
> > 15 or 16 index always seems to shoot an 80. For me to match that, I'd
> > have to shoot 68 or 69. If I could do that, I sure wouldn't be playing
> > in amateur tournaments.
> >
> > Played in a 2 man best ball today, and while my partner sucked, I shot
> > 77, for a net 73. I'm currently a 5, but they use your best index from
> > the last 12 months. Our team shot a net 70 (like I said, my partner
> > sucked), but you had to be at around 66 or 67 to qualify for the next
> > round (top 11 of 44 teams). But there were SEVERAL scores that are
> > 62-63 range, which I think is ridiculous.
> >
> > You only shoot your handicap 1 of every 5 rounds. So 1 of every 25
> > rounds you and your partner will shoot your handicap. That should work
> > out to 2 teams in a 44 team event.
> >
> > I'm just ranting because I'm tired of the sandbagging (read: Cheating)
> > that goes on.
> >
>
>
> Did you play with full handicaps?
>
> From the USGA regarding handicaps in best ball matches:
>
> Stroke Play
>
> * Four-ball stroke play, where two competitors play as partners and
> their lower score is that side's score for the hole: men receive 90% of
> their Course Handicaps; women get 95% of their Course Handicaps. The
> USGA recommends that the spread between partners' Course Handicaps be
> limited to eight strokes. If the spread is greater, reduce all Course
> Handicaps by an additional 10%. USGA studies have shown that teams with
> a wide handicap spread will have an unfair advantage.
It was by the book, 90% of your lowest index in the last 12 months.
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069146 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 01:03 |
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> > I'm just ranting because I'm tired of the sandbagging (read: Cheating)
> > that goes on.
>
> A lot would firstly depend on the course rating. If the course is rated
> say 68, then 80 is only +12, and not that big a deal for some 15
> handicapper to shoot 80.
It was a 71.0/127
> With a large number of people in the event,
> someone is going to have a good round. The bad thing for higher
> handicappers is that for a 13 like me, I will be 3 or 4 strokes over my
> USGA index half the time. I will be 3 or 4 strokes better once in 20
> rounds. Put say 100 people like me in an event though, and there is a
> good chance that one or two will be 3 or 4 strokes better.
Yeah, that's a good point. It just seems like there's a hell of a lot
more than 1 or 2 that are 3 or 4 strokes better.
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069148 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 01:09 |
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Excuse me, but what USGA book prescribes lowest index in the last 12
months?
"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1152745256.329374.58280 [at] 75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> It was by the book, 90% of your lowest index in the last 12 months.
>
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069149 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 01:11 |
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Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069152 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 01:55 |
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On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 12:15:08 -0700, Larry Bud wrote:
> I'm just ranting because I'm tired of the sandbagging (read: Cheating)
> that goes on.
I have a friend who plays a lot of tournament golf. He says he's a 9.
Great, I'm a 9. Last weekend I shot 82. A decent par 72 track, not too bad
for me. Him? 75. The week before on an even tougher track? 74. Talk about
lucky...
The way I look at it, in a tournament you get a couple of rounds on a nice
course with lunch thrown in. If I play well, great. But I know that
barring a miracle I'll probably still lose.
The only time I ever won anything was years ago when I was just getting
started in golf. That spring I signed up for weekly lessons and was
practicing a lot. I suddenly started making solid contact. I had already
entered a tournament as a 24 or something and by the time it rolled around
I told them I had dropped to a 21. But the handicap only drops so fast. No
one would speak to me. I felt bad. I still remember the muttering and the
dirty looks. But I won a bunch of stuff, so it was ok.
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069173 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 03:04 |
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> Which is not to say that I don't sympathize with your plight. I wish we had
> the British system where only tournament rounds counted towards handicap.
There's nothing fundamentally wrong with our system... it just isn't
used and there's no enforcement to use it. The T score does what you
want (biases handicap toward tournament rounds). Get the USGA to
REQUIRE that the tournament hosts post all T scores for the players
(most get posted as regular rounds if at all) and the sadbagging will
nearly disappear.
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069175 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 03:10 |
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Larry Bud wrote:
> I played in 7 amateur tournaments here in SE michigan during the year,
> and I'm about to pack it in. I get KILLED in these things because some
> 15 or 16 index always seems to shoot an 80. For me to match that, I'd
> have to shoot 68 or 69. If I could do that, I sure wouldn't be playing
> in amateur tournaments.
>
> Played in a 2 man best ball today, and while my partner sucked, I shot
> 77, for a net 73. I'm currently a 5, but they use your best index from
> the last 12 months. Our team shot a net 70 (like I said, my partner
> sucked), but you had to be at around 66 or 67 to qualify for the next
> round (top 11 of 44 teams). But there were SEVERAL scores that are
> 62-63 range, which I think is ridiculous.
>
> You only shoot your handicap 1 of every 5 rounds. So 1 of every 25
> rounds you and your partner will shoot your handicap. That should work
> out to 2 teams in a 44 team event.
>
> I'm just ranting because I'm tired of the sandbagging (read: Cheating)
> that goes on.
You are not only ranting, you are dead wrong. I have gone up to a 16
handicap
in the last couple of years because of back problems and other
injuries. However,
I hit the ball well enough to birdie or par any hole on my home course.
My brother
and I easily shoot net 62's or 63's, even though he is a 7 handicap,
because he
pars almost every hole he gets a stroke on, and I throw in 7 or 8 pars,
while
getting doubles on 4 or 5 holes, to shoot my normal 87. He usually pars
the
holes I am blowing up on, and usually shoots 76, 77 or so, not that
great,
but a little below his handicap. We both post all our score, even away
scores,
and even unfinished rounds. Maybe you should get a new partner, or try
to
win the gross division of the tournament, which is what the better
golfers at our
club do. But to accuse someone of cheating, just because you haven't
figured
out how to win, is just plain ignorant. And I shoot my handicap almost
ever round.
My last 20 scores, with the exception of an 83, are all between 87 to
90.
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069177 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 03:17 |
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?
> And I shoot my handicap almost
> ever round.
I don't know about Europe, but if you are in the states under the USGA
system, then your handicap is wrong... plain and simple. You simply
can't do that without your handicap adjusting to where you can't shoot
it every round unless you continually improve to stay ahead of your
handicap. That's how it's set up and that's how it is.
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069180 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 03:23 |
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dsc wrote:
> ?
> > And I shoot my handicap almost
> > ever round.
>
> I don't know about Europe, but if you are in the states under the USGA
> system, then your handicap is wrong... plain and simple. You simply
> can't do that without your handicap adjusting to where you can't shoot
> it every round unless you continually improve to stay ahead of your
> handicap. That's how it's set up and that's how it is.
You'll have to explain this one. I have no idea what you are talking
about.
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069188 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 04:08 |
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> > It was by the book, 90% of your lowest index in the last 12 months.
> Excuse me, but what USGA book prescribes lowest index in the last 12
> months?
You're right, not the USGA, but the rules of the Golf Association of
Michigan.
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069189 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 04:10 |
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For anything over 13, taking 0.96 of the average of the ten lowest
differentials will cost you a stoke. For example, a 18 shooting 10 rounds of
90 on a 72/113 course has an index of 17.2 which is a handicap of 17.
"pete z" <pz0326 [at] aol.com> wrote in message
news:1152753819.600647.36140 [at] 35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> dsc wrote:
>> ?
>> > And I shoot my handicap almost
>> > ever round.
>>
>> I don't know about Europe, but if you are in the states under the USGA
>> system, then your handicap is wrong... plain and simple. You simply
>> can't do that without your handicap adjusting to where you can't shoot
>> it every round unless you continually improve to stay ahead of your
>> handicap. That's how it's set up and that's how it is.
>
>
> You'll have to explain this one. I have no idea what you are talking
> about.
>
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069192 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 04:22 |
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> You are not only ranting, you are dead wrong. I have gone up to a 16
> handicap in the last couple of years because of back problems and other
> injuries. However, I hit the ball well enough to birdie or par any hole on my home course.
> My brother and I easily shoot net 62's or 63's, even though he is a 7 handicap,
> because he pars almost every hole he gets a stroke on,
Which is suspicious in and of itself. The whole idea of parring the
hardest 7 holes is contrary to what the handicap system is supposed to
do. It's to give you a stroke on the holes you're EXPECTED to bogey.
> and I throw in 7 or 8 pars,
> while getting doubles on 4 or 5 holes, to shoot my normal 87.
Suspicious again. 7 or 8 pars and shooting 15 over par? Interesting.
> He usually pars the holes I am blowing up on,
Hell, that's convenient, isn't it?
> and usually shoots 76, 77 or so, not that great,
> but a little below his handicap. We both post all our score,
I find it hard to believe that you both post all scores when he's
shooting +4 or +5, and is a 7 index!!! No wonder you guys shoot net
62s!! My average score this year is just under 80 and I'm a 5!
Not only that, the USGA adjusts handicaps for tournament rounds that
are consistently better than
The USGA system is set up so that you shoot to your handicap only 20%
of time
http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/understanding_handicap /articles/howwell.html
http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/understanding_handicap /articles/deanstable.html
> And I shoot my handicap almost ever round.
Again, impossible, which tells me you don't post all your scores.
Why? Because of the way the USGA handcapping system is set up. The
fact that you take the BEST 10 of the 20 differentials, and average
them determines your handicap. So that means only 1 of 4 scores are at
your handicap or better.
> My last 20 scores, with the exception of an 83, are all between 87 to
> 90.
You have a 3 shot range of scores in 19 of your last 20 rounds? Pros
don't even have that "consistency".
Do you have GHIN we can take a look at online?
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069194 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 04:28 |
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pete z wrote:
>
> dsc wrote:
>> ?
>> > And I shoot my handicap almost
>> > ever round.
>>
>> I don't know about Europe, but if you are in the states under the USGA
>> system, then your handicap is wrong... plain and simple. You simply
>> can't do that without your handicap adjusting to where you can't shoot
>> it every round unless you continually improve to stay ahead of your
>> handicap. That's how it's set up and that's how it is.
>
>
> You'll have to explain this one. I have no idea what you are talking
> about.
Well for starters, you're taking your best 10 of your last 20 indices and
multiplying them by 96%. Therefore, if you keep shooting your handicap,
your handicap is going to go down. Let's say you were a 20 and your last
10 indices were all 20 and they were the best 10. Now, your handicap is
19.2. You can see how you would have to shoot lower now to shoot your
handicap, but then it would move down again, etc.
Another example. To shoot my index at the course I play most often, I have
to shoot around 77. However, a quick look at my best 10 of my last 20
shows me that if I shoot 80 or better there, my handicap would go down.
Wayne
--
www.nhlfa.com
"There are only two things I can't stand in this world: people who are
intolerant of other peoples' cultures, and the Dutch."
-Nigel Powers
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| Re: Amateur Tournies--I give up [message #1069200 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 04:43 |
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The 20% is a statistical statement not a systemic statement. There is
absolutely nothing in the handicap system preventing you from shooting your
handicap every time.
"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1152757377.322115.79770 [at] m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>> You are not only ranting, you are dead wrong. I have gone up to a 16
>> handicap in the last couple of years because of back problems and other
>> injuries. However, I hit the ball well enough to birdie or par any hole
>> on my home course.
>
>> My brother and I easily shoot net 62's or 63's, even though he is a 7
>> handicap,
>> because he pars almost every hole he gets a stroke on,
>
> Which is suspicious in and of itself. The whole idea of parring the
> hardest 7 holes is contrary to what the handicap system is supposed to
> do. It's to give you a stroke on the holes you're EXPECTED to bogey.
>
>> and I throw in 7 or 8 pars,
>> while getting doubles on 4 or 5 holes, to shoot my normal 87.
>
> Suspicious again. 7 or 8 pars and shooting 15 over par? Interesting.
>
>> He usually pars the holes I am blowing up on,
>
> Hell, that's convenient, isn't it?
>
>> and usually shoots 76, 77 or so, not that great,
>> but a little below his handicap. We both post all our score,
>
> I find it hard to believe that you both post all scores when he's
> shooting +4 or +5, and is a 7 index!!! No wonder you guys shoot net
> 62s!! My average score this year is just under 80 and I'm a 5!
>
> Not only that, the USGA adjusts handicaps for tournament rounds that
> are consistently better than
>
>
> The USGA system is set up so that you shoot to your handicap only 20%
> of time
>
> http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/understanding_handicap /articles/howwell.html
>
> http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/understanding_handicap /articles/deanstable.html
>
>
>
>> And I shoot my handicap almost ever round.
>
> Again, impossible, which tells me you don't post all your scores.
>
> Why? Because of the way the USGA handcapping system is set up. The
> fact that you take the BEST 10 of the 20 differentials, and average
> them determines your handicap. So that means only 1 of 4 scores are at
> your handicap or better.
>
>> My last 20 scores, with the exception of an 83, are all between 87 to
>> 90.
>
> You have a 3 shot range of scores in 19 of your last 20 rounds? Pros
> don't even have that "consistency".
>
> Do you have GHIN we can take a look at online?
>
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