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Sports » rec.sport.soccer » Re: Zidane's Public Apology
| Re: Zidane's Public Apology [message #1062645] |
Di, 11 Juli 2006 20:51 |
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Benny wrote:
> Where is it? It doesn't matter if he has apologised to his team-mates,
> as one of the highest profile players in the sport he should make a
> public apology otherwise what type of message is he sending out?
What a lot of self-righteous hypocrisy. Out of one side of your mouths
you all indignantly call for an apology so that Zidane might "right the
wrongs he's done the sport" while out of the other side you casually
dismiss anything Materazzi might have done (and talk about someone who
has sullied the name of the sport!), saying that that's the reality of
the sport.
If anyone should be apologizing for damaging the image of the sport,
it's Materazzi, and everyone knows it - how many articles have been
written about how dirty he plays? None of the things shown on the
Youtube montage which has made the rounds recently is any surprise to
anyone.
And where are the calls for Figo to apologize for headbutting van
Bommel? FIFA did nothing. Portugal even advanced!
So if you want to maintain your (frankly pretty transparent) facade of
indignation over damage that has been done to the sport, you should at
least make the effort to appear fair in your demands for apologies.
Otherwise all your self-righteous anger will look like what it really
is: opportunistic potshots motivated by sour grapes.
Marc
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| Re: Zidane's Public Apology [message #1062695 ] |
Di, 11 Juli 2006 21:34 |
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> Subject : Zidane's Public Apology
> From : Marc Adler <marc.adler [at] gmail.com>
>What a lot of self-righteous hypocrisy. Out of one side of your mouths
>you all indignantly call for an apology so that Zidane might "right the
>wrongs he's done the sport" while out of the other side you casually
>dismiss anything Materazzi might have done (and talk about someone who
>has sullied the name of the sport!), saying that that's the reality of
>the sport.
Two girls shouted racist abuse at me a couple of weeks ago, would I have
been justified in heat butting them? So why is this different, because
they're grown men and billions are watching?
>If anyone should be apologizing for damaging the image of the sport,
>it's Materazzi, and everyone knows it - how many articles have been
>written about how dirty he plays? None of the things shown on the
>Youtube montage which has made the rounds recently is any surprise to
>anyone.
>
>And where are the calls for Figo to apologize for headbutting van
>Bommel? FIFA did nothing. Portugal even advanced!
>So if you want to maintain your (frankly pretty transparent) facade of
>indignation over damage that has been done to the sport, you should at
>least make the effort to appear fair in your demands for apologies.
Are you taking the piss? Figo barely touched Van Bommel.
>Otherwise all your self-righteous anger will look like what it really
>is: opportunistic potshots motivated by sour grapes.
Sour grapes over what? Italy won and Zidane has done irreparable damage
to his ill deserved reputation as one of the all time greats. He still
owes an apology to everyone, especially to the hundreds of millions of
kids watching as C. Barnowe suggested earlier in this thread.
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| Re: Zidane's Public Apology [message #1062818 ] |
Di, 11 Juli 2006 23:39 |
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Benny wrote:
> Two girls shouted racist abuse at me a couple of weeks ago, would I have
> been justified in heat butting them? So why is this different, because
> they're grown men and billions are watching?
Go back and read my message again - I was saying it's hypocritical to
criticize Zidane on the one hand while passing off Materazzi's actions
as "just the reality of the game" on the other.
I never said anything about justifying Zidane's actions.
> Are you taking the piss? Figo barely touched Van Bommel.
So it matters how hard you headbutt someone?
> Sour grapes over what? Italy won and Zidane has done irreparable damage
> to his ill deserved reputation as one of the all time greats. He still
> owes an apology to everyone, especially to the hundreds of millions of
> kids watching as C. Barnowe suggested earlier in this thread.
Sour grapes over 1) the fact that Zidane's reputation has not been
damaged to the extent all the Zidane-haters out there want desperately
to believe, 2) on the contrary, the finger is being pointed at
Materazzi, who is now on the defensive, and not Zidane, and 3) the fact
that the incident has completely dominated the news, pushing Italy's
win off the headlines and basically making it an afterthought.
And about apologizing - if you want to appear evenhanded, where have
the calls for apologies been throughout Materazzi's career? Or is it
okay if your fouls are sneaky, but not if they are in the open?
Marc
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| Re: Zidane's Public Apology [message #1063319 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 15:57 |
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> Subject : Zidane's Public Apology
> From : Marc Adler <marc.adler [at] gmail.com>
>So it matters how hard you headbutt someone?
Pressing your head against someone else's head isn't a headbutt.
>Sour grapes over 1) the fact that Zidane's reputation has not been
>damaged to the extent all the Zidane-haters out there want desperately
>to believe,
This incident guarantees Zidane will always play second fiddle to
Platini as France's greatest ever player. Remember Zidane only won one
Ballon D'or, Platini won three.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2006/team s/france/516
5296.stm
"For many people he can never be put at the level of Michel Platini
because of Sunday night." - Xavier Rivoire, France Football
> 2) on the contrary, the finger is being pointed at
>Materazzi, who is now on the defensive, and not Zidane, and 3) the fact
>that the incident has completely dominated the news, pushing Italy's
>win off the headlines and basically making it an afterthought.
Not it in Italy it doesn't.
>And about apologizing - if you want to appear evenhanded, where have
>the calls for apologies been throughout Materazzi's career? Or is it
>okay if your fouls are sneaky, but not if they are in the open?
A foul is one thing, head butting a player in an off the ball incident
is an entirely different matter. Neither player is a saint.
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| Re: Zidane's Public Apology [message #1063720 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 23:33 |
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Benny wrote:
> > Subject : Zidane's Public Apology
> > From : Marc Adler <marc.adler [at] gmail.com>
>
> >What a lot of self-righteous hypocrisy. Out of one side of your mouths
> >you all indignantly call for an apology so that Zidane might "right the
> >wrongs he's done the sport" while out of the other side you casually
> >dismiss anything Materazzi might have done (and talk about someone who
> >has sullied the name of the sport!), saying that that's the reality of
> >the sport.
>
> Two girls shouted racist abuse at me a couple of weeks ago, would I have
> been justified in heat butting them?
Hmm, no, and if you did, you would be penalised according to the laws
of your country, just like Zidane was penalised by red card. But that's
not the hard question. Question is, did those girls do anything wrong
and should they be penalised or at least should they own an apology to
you for their actions?
> So why is this different, because
> they're grown men and billions are watching?
No, it's not. If anything, adults should behave better than teenagers
and not show example by insulting other adults or headbutting them.
> >If anyone should be apologizing for damaging the image of the sport,
> >it's Materazzi, and everyone knows it - how many articles have been
> >written about how dirty he plays? None of the things shown on the
> >Youtube montage which has made the rounds recently is any surprise to
> >anyone.
> >
> >And where are the calls for Figo to apologize for headbutting van
> >Bommel? FIFA did nothing. Portugal even advanced!
>
> >So if you want to maintain your (frankly pretty transparent) facade of
> >indignation over damage that has been done to the sport, you should at
> >least make the effort to appear fair in your demands for apologies.
>
> Are you taking the piss? Figo barely touched Van Bommel.
Hmm, how hard you have to hit to it be red card? Both Van Bommel and
Materazzi went down by the hit and probably both felt pain. Both were
able to continue playing once the game resumed. Neither got any
permanent injuries. Sometimes by accident a perfectly legal tackle
causes an injury. That is not and should not be penalised. The intent
is the key. If you intent to hurt other players, you should get a red
card.
> >Otherwise all your self-righteous anger will look like what it really
> >is: opportunistic potshots motivated by sour grapes.
>
> Sour grapes over what? Italy won and Zidane has done irreparable damage
> to his ill deserved reputation as one of the all time greats. He still
> owes an apology to everyone, especially to the hundreds of millions of
> kids watching as C. Barnowe suggested earlier in this thread.
Ok, now Zidane has apologised specifically those millions of kids.
Should Materazzi also apologise his insults or should the kids be left
with this impression from the world cup final:
Materazzi insults Zidane. Zidane gets angry, headbutts him and gets
sent off. Materazzi continues playing and is part of the winning team.
>From purely point of view of winning the game, Materazzi's action was
clearly the cleverer one. He got Zidane out and thus helped his team.
What do kids learn from this? That insulting other people is ok and
football rules actually encourage to do it. Do we want more of those
girls of your above example shouting insults and on top of that feeling
that they are doing the right thing?
Samuli Saarelma
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| Re: Zidane's Public Apology [message #1063727 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 23:40 |
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samuli.saare... [at] hut.fi wrote:
> Hmm, no, and if you did, you would be penalised according to the laws
> of your country, just like Zidane was penalised by red card.
He was given an administrative sanction by FIFA certainly not by
Germany and its penal laws.
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| Re: Zidane's Public Apology [message #1063731 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 23:46 |
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forssberg wrote:
> samuli.saare... [at] hut.fi wrote:
> > Hmm, no, and if you did, you would be penalised according to the laws
> > of your country, just like Zidane was penalised by red card.
>
>
> He was given an administrative sanction by FIFA certainly not by
> Germany and its penal laws.
Yes, as he was playing football he was naturally penalised according to
the laws of football. Of course the German laws apply on the football
field too, so if German prosecutors want to press charges against him,
I don't think there is any immunity to him. Football laws do not give
right to use violence on other people, unlike rules for boxing, for
instance.
Samuli Saarelma
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| Re: Zidane's Public Apology [message #1063746 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 00:02 |
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> Subject : Zidane's Public Apology
> From : samuli.saarelma [at] hut.fi
>Hmm, no, and if you did, you would be penalised according to the laws
>of your country, just like Zidane was penalised by red card. But that's
>not the hard question. Question is, did those girls do anything wrong
>and should they be penalised or at least should they own an apology to
>you for their actions?
Given they're ginger (I called them ginger twats) I think that's
punishment enough.
>Hmm, how hard you have to hit to it be red card? Both Van Bommel and
>Materazzi went down by the hit and probably both felt pain. Both were
>able to continue playing once the game resumed. Neither got any
>permanent injuries. Sometimes by accident a perfectly legal tackle
>causes an injury. That is not and should not be penalised. The intent
>is the key. If you intent to hurt other players, you should get a red
>card.
The head-butts were not comparable but I agree with your point about
intent.
>Ok, now Zidane has apologised specifically those millions of kids.
>Should Materazzi also apologise his insults or should the kids be left
>with this impression from the world cup final:
>Materazzi insults Zidane. Zidane gets angry, headbutts him and gets
>sent off. Materazzi continues playing and is part of the winning team.
>
>>From purely point of view of winning the game, Materazzi's action was
>clearly the cleverer one. He got Zidane out and thus helped his team.
>What do kids learn from this? That insulting other people is ok and
>football rules actually encourage to do it. Do we want more of those
>girls of your above example shouting insults and on top of that feeling
>that they are doing the right thing?
Materazzi should apologise as well.
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| Re: Zidane's Public Apology [message #1063968 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 04:01 |
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<samuli.saarelma [at] hut.fi> wrote in message
news:1152740005.191949.178770 [at] h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Should Materazzi also apologise his insults or should the kids be left
> with this impression from the world cup final:
Maybe every player who uttered an insult during a WC game should apologize.
They could put it on TV - a regular apologize-athon.
Or, is somehow Materazzi being singled out because his insult, out of the
hundreds or more uttered during the WC, happened to be made to someone who
had no self control.
Zidane's actions make Materazzi's insult no better **OR WORSE** than any
other insult uttered during any game.
So either lets get down and dirty about *ALL* of the insults or lets stop
making believe this has any thing to with anything other than the public
rehabilitation of Zidane.
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| Re: Zidane's Public Apology [message #1063970 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 04:04 |
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"Benny" <Benny [at] soccer-europe.com> wrote in message
news:C+ObD8EnFXtEFwR1 [at] mail.soccer-europe.com...
> Materazzi should apologise as well.
Why? Is everyone who insulted someone else during a WC game going to
apologize as well? Why does Zindane's bad act elevate Materazzi's insult to
"need to apologize" status when all of the other insults made during all of
the other games are ignored? Or is anyone going to argue that there were no
insults during the game other than Materazzi's?
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| Re: Zidane's Public Apology [message #1063989 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 04:46 |
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rich wrote:
> Maybe every player who uttered an insult during a WC game should apologize.
> They could put it on TV - a regular apologize-athon.
>
> Or, is somehow Materazzi being singled out because his insult, out of the
> hundreds or more uttered during the WC, happened to be made to someone who
> had no self control.
>
> Zidane's actions make Materazzi's insult no better **OR WORSE** than any
> other insult uttered during any game.
>
> So either lets get down and dirty about *ALL* of the insults or lets stop
> making believe this has any thing to with anything other than the public
> rehabilitation of Zidane.
Well said, Rich, it captures my feelings exactly not to mention the
injustice that is being perpetrated.
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| Re: Zidane's Public Apology [message #1064040 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 05:52 |
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"forssberg" wrote
> rich wrote:
>
> > Maybe every player who uttered an insult during a WC game should
apologize.
> > They could put it on TV - a regular apologize-athon.
> >
> > Or, is somehow Materazzi being singled out because his insult, out of
the
> > hundreds or more uttered during the WC, happened to be made to someone
who
> > had no self control.
> >
> > Zidane's actions make Materazzi's insult no better **OR WORSE** than any
> > other insult uttered during any game.
> >
> > So either lets get down and dirty about *ALL* of the insults or lets
stop
> > making believe this has any thing to with anything other than the public
> > rehabilitation of Zidane.
>
> Well said, Rich, it captures my feelings exactly not to mention the
> injustice that is being perpetrated.
What injustice? That Materazzi finally gets his due because he fucked with
someone that many people love? You have got to be kidding.
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| Re: Zidane's Public Apology [message #1064053 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 05:57 |
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Bob wrote:
> What injustice? That Materazzi finally gets his due because he fucked with
> someone that many people love? You have got to be kidding.
The worldwide slanderous campaign that Materazzi is a racist is
eminently unjust. The faked apology, the ethical sophistry, the media
fabrication to serve Zidane's persona is also unjust.
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| Re: Zidane's Public Apology [message #1064095 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 07:36 |
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forssberg wrote:
> Bob wrote:
>
> > What injustice? That Materazzi finally gets his due because he fucked with
> > someone that many people love? You have got to be kidding.
>
>
> The worldwide slanderous campaign that Materazzi is a racist is
> eminently unjust. The faked apology, the ethical sophistry, the media
> fabrication to serve Zidane's persona is also unjust.
Seems to me that Materazzi made racist comments, so I'd class him as a
racist.
Materazzi is no angel, this attempted snow job on him and his previous
career is so transparent.
People know what he's like, it surprises no-one that he's involved in
something like this.
Higgs
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| Re: Zidane's Public Apology [message #1064127 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 09:40 |
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rich wrote:
> <samuli.saarelma [at] hut.fi> wrote in message
> news:1152740005.191949.178770 [at] h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Should Materazzi also apologise his insults or should the kids be left
> > with this impression from the world cup final:
>
> Maybe every player who uttered an insult during a WC game should apologize.
> They could put it on TV - a regular apologize-athon.
FIFA has taken a strong stand against what fans are allowed to shout to
the players. Is there a reason why players should be allowed to behave
any worse?
> Or, is somehow Materazzi being singled out because his insult, out of the
> hundreds or more uttered during the WC, happened to be made to someone who
> had no self control.
>
> Zidane's actions make Materazzi's insult no better **OR WORSE** than any
> other insult uttered during any game.
Well, the problem is, as Benny noted, the image this incident leaves to
millions of kids. If the image is that insulting other people (such as
calling their mothers terrorist whores) and getting an advantage in
sport this way (the other guy lost his nerve and was sent off), I
think, this incident is more special than others. Just like Zidane's
headbutt in WC final is more special than a punch in a lower league
match.
> So either lets get down and dirty about *ALL* of the insults or lets stop
> making believe this has any thing to with anything other than the public
> rehabilitation of Zidane.
Yes, I have no problem eradicating all insults (at least those
unrelated to football itself) from the game. I can't believe that
football would lose anything if players cleaned their language.
Samuli Saarelma
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| Re: Zidane's Public Apology [message #1064130 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 09:58 |
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Benny wrote:
> This incident guarantees Zidane will always play second fiddle to
> Platini as France's greatest ever player. Remember Zidane only won one
> Ballon D'or, Platini won three.
It doesn't guarantee that.Its a pretty pointless point except that his
reputation as a person has been hit.But that may be all to the good as
who wants cults of sporting heroes anyway?I do think that for his
position in UNICEF for example the bar should be set a lot higher than
what they got.The blame may rest with that organization for not vetting
their man well enough.
>
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| Re: Zidane's Public Apology [message #1064257 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 15:30 |
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> Subject : Zidane's Public Apology
> From : rich <dummy [at] nothere.com>
>Why? Is everyone who insulted someone else during a WC game going to
>apologize as well? Why does Zindane's bad act elevate Materazzi's insult to
>"need to apologize" status when all of the other insults made during all of
>the other games are ignored? Or is anyone going to argue that there were no
>insults during the game other than Materazzi's?
Materazzi's a complete tool and doesn't come out of this smelling of
roses, depending on which side of the fence you're sitting on. I'd like
to see both of them shake hands.
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| Re: Zidane's Public Apology [message #1064416 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 20:00 |
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<samuli.saarelma [at] hut.fi> wrote in message
news:1152776434.591456.265450 [at] b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Well, the problem is, as Benny noted, the image this incident leaves to
> millions of kids. If the image is that insulting other people (such as
> calling their mothers terrorist whores) and getting an advantage in
> sport this way (the other guy lost his nerve and was sent off), I
> think, this incident is more special than others. Just like Zidane's
> headbutt in WC final is more special than a punch in a lower league
> match.
Why is this one incident more special that the hundreds of other insults?
Not because of what Materazzi did. Unless you believe that his was the only
insult uttered during the whole Cup. I doubt it was even the worst insult.
If Zidane had not done what he did then Materazzi's insult would have passed
unnoticed **EXACTLY LIKE** all of the other insults. The only thing
"special" about this incident is Zidane's action. His action does not
increase the relatively negligible fact of Materazzi's insult.
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| Re: Zidane's Public Apology [message #1064491 ] |
Do, 13 Juli 2006 22:15 |
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rich wrote:
> <samuli.saarelma [at] hut.fi> wrote in message
> news:1152776434.591456.265450 [at] b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Well, the problem is, as Benny noted, the image this incident leaves to
> > millions of kids. If the image is that insulting other people (such as
> > calling their mothers terrorist whores) and getting an advantage in
> > sport this way (the other guy lost his nerve and was sent off), I
> > think, this incident is more special than others. Just like Zidane's
> > headbutt in WC final is more special than a punch in a lower league
> > match.
>
> Why is this one incident more special that the hundreds of other insults?
I just explained above.
> Not because of what Materazzi did.
Yes, he provoked, Zidane lost his nerve and headbutted. Stupid from
both players. And they should apologise from the millions of kids
watching the final. Football is not insulting or headbutting opponents.
> Unless you believe that his was the only
> insult uttered during the whole Cup. I doubt it was even the worst insult.
> If Zidane had not done what he did then Materazzi's insult would have passed
> unnoticed **EXACTLY LIKE** all of the other insults.
That doesn't make any of the insulting any more acceptable. Are you
really in that opinion that insulting other players make the game
better?
FIFA doesn't think so. Article 54 of the Diciplinary Code says:
"Anyone who insults someone in any way, especially by using offensive
gestures or language, will be sanctioned with a match suspension.
If the perpetrator is a player, he will be suspended from at least two
matches; if he is an official, he will be suspended from at least four
matches."
> The only thing
> "special" about this incident is Zidane's action. His action does not
> increase the relatively negligible fact of Materazzi's insult.
Hmm, are you claiming that Materazzi didn't break against the Article
54 that I copied above?
Samuli Saarelma
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