20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringing down the scrum

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20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringing down the scrum [message #1036391]

Sun, 21 May 2006 22:43

richard.raudon

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19211215- 32102,00.html

Season of collapses serves as precursor for Tests
COMMENT
Wayne Smith, Rugby Union editor
May 22, 2006
THE Waratahs' season ends on a collapsed scrum. The Brumbies' ends on a
collapsed scrum. And the Wallabies' season is just about to start.
If there is not a sense of foreboding in the air about what Australia
can expect from its Test opponents -- and from referees -- at scrum
time this year, there seriously ought to be.

An entire season of Super 14 rugby has done little to alter the
perception that Australian scrums are soft and the trouble is that
these days perception has become reality. Unless the Wallabies can
dramatically reverse that mind-set, they cannot expect anything other
than more dud refereeing decisions.

Waratahs coach Ewen McKenzie has every reason to lodge a complaint
about the performance of South African referee Jonathan Kaplan in
Friday's semi-final against the Hurricanes. Only one win out of 15
matches played under him is an outcome that warrants more than cursory
inspection, although caution needs to be taken when throwing around
this damning statistic.

Aside from derbies, Super rugby matches are always controlled by
neutral referees which means that every time the Waratahs take on a New
Zealand team, a South African will be in charge.

Given the strength of the five NZ sides, it's inevitable the Tahs are
going to lose far more away matches than they win, irrespective of who
is blowing the whistle. That has to be factored into the Kaplan
equation.

But back to the problem of perception. When the last scrum of the
Brumbies-Highlanders match collapsed at Canberra Stadium, who was
referee Marius Jonker pointing at as he awarded the penalty? Needless
to say, it was Bill Young, the same Bill Young who was targeted as a
weak link in last year's Tri-Nations series, particularly by the
Springboks but also, less overtly, by the All Blacks.

Ben Blair kicked the penalty goal and a certain Super 14 semi-final
berth was snatched away from the Brumbies, who then, hardly
surprisingly, stumbled at the formidable final hurdle of the Crusaders
in Christchurch.

Young is Australia's most experienced loosehead, with 46 Test caps to
his credit, but it seems inevitable he will not reach his half-century.

It is almost irrelevant whether the 32-year-old veteran is still up to
the task at Test level. The fact is that any time a scrum goes awry,
referees will suspect he's the culprit and punish the Wallabies
accordingly -- rightly or wrongly.

And it doesn't take too much imagination to conjure up scenarios in
which opposing front rows double-bluff referees into awarding them
penalties they don't deserve.

The worry is Australia's rising young looseheads still have a long way
to go. In terms of application and technique, the Waratahs' Benn
Robinson promises the most but his lack of size and experience is of
serious concern.

When the Hurricanes suddenly drew back on his side to whip-wheel the
NSW scrum on Friday night, all he could do was put his hands in the air
and complain fruitlessly to Kaplan.

What the Waratahs should have done is what the Wallabies need to do
right from the outset of their domestic campaign: take the referee out
of the equation. Had the eight NSW forwards all taken a decisive step
to the right, they could have countered the Hurricanes' wheel, the ball
would have been cleared into touch and the Hurricanes would have been
denied the platform for their only try of the match.

Queensland Reds prop Greg Holmes is a potential long-term solution at
loosehead, but his struggle for fitness and lack of upper-body strength
means that in the short-term the Wallabies will have to wear
considerably more grief.

Back to perceptions ... Al Baxter has been Australia's most consistent
tighthead this season but it is going to take more than one solid
season of Super rugby for him to live down the Twickenham debacle of
last November.

When that centre field scrum, Waratahs feed, went down for a third time
in the 70th minute on Friday night, it was virtually inevitable Kaplan
would penalise the Waratahs -- the penalty that ended their season
courtesy of a monster kick from Jimmy Gopperth.

To that point, the scrum contest had been hard-fought and intense but
any objective judge would have had the Hurricanes marginally ahead on
points.

And given that most refereeing decisions on scrum collapses are based
on 20 per cent knowledge, 30 per cent intuition and 50 per cent pure
guesswork, Kaplan was never going to give the benefit of a 50-50 call
to Baxter. Who was sin-binned at Twickenham because he couldn't hold up
his side of the scrum? The word gets out, after all.

Baxter is one of the smartest and most articulate players doing the
rounds and he knows how Friday's debacle will have an impact on his
selection chances. He will make the Wallabies squad, undoubtedly,
because Rodney Blake is the only other serious alternative at
tighthead, but he will realise that what happened in Wellington has
only hardened the perception he is "soft".

This is the baggage John Connolly has inherited in his first season as
Wallabies coach. Not that he didn't know in advance what he was taking
on. As the long-time director of rugby at Bath, the club that provided
five players to the England squad which humiliated Australia last
November, he surely would have inside information of just what
opposition players think of the gold scrum.

The first Test of the season is just three weeks away, appropriately
enough against England. Unless Connolly and his forwards gurus Michael
Foley and Alec Evans are able to turn that perception around, it's
going to be a long, hard year for the Wallabies and their coaching
staff.

***************************
Now you've read that, read this:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3616680a1823,00.html

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringing down the scrum [message #1036397 ]

Mon, 22 May 2006 00:06

johno1234

Kozz wrote:
> http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19211215- 32102,00.html
>
>
> Season of collapses serves as precursor for Tests
> COMMENT
> Wayne Smith, Rugby Union editor
> May 22, 2006
> THE Waratahs' season ends on a collapsed scrum. The Brumbies' ends on a
> collapsed scrum. And the Wallabies' season is just about to start.
> If there is not a sense of foreboding in the air about what Australia
> can expect from its Test opponents -- and from referees -- at scrum
> time this year, there seriously ought to be.
>
> An entire season of Super 14 rugby has done little to alter the
> perception that Australian scrums are soft and the trouble is that
> these days perception has become reality. Unless the Wallabies can
> dramatically reverse that mind-set, they cannot expect anything other
> than more dud refereeing decisions.
>
> Waratahs coach Ewen McKenzie has every reason to lodge a complaint
> about the performance of South African referee Jonathan Kaplan in
> Friday's semi-final against the Hurricanes. Only one win out of 15
> matches played under him is an outcome that warrants more than cursory
> inspection, although caution needs to be taken when throwing around
> this damning statistic.
>
> Aside from derbies, Super rugby matches are always controlled by
> neutral referees which means that every time the Waratahs take on a New
> Zealand team, a South African will be in charge.
>
> Given the strength of the five NZ sides, it's inevitable the Tahs are
> going to lose far more away matches than they win, irrespective of who
> is blowing the whistle. That has to be factored into the Kaplan
> equation.
>
> But back to the problem of perception. When the last scrum of the
> Brumbies-Highlanders match collapsed at Canberra Stadium, who was
> referee Marius Jonker pointing at as he awarded the penalty? Needless
> to say, it was Bill Young, the same Bill Young who was targeted as a
> weak link in last year's Tri-Nations series, particularly by the
> Springboks but also, less overtly, by the All Blacks.
>
> Ben Blair kicked the penalty goal and a certain Super 14 semi-final
> berth was snatched away from the Brumbies, who then, hardly
> surprisingly, stumbled at the formidable final hurdle of the Crusaders
> in Christchurch.
>
> Young is Australia's most experienced loosehead, with 46 Test caps to
> his credit, but it seems inevitable he will not reach his half-century.
>
>
> It is almost irrelevant whether the 32-year-old veteran is still up to
> the task at Test level. The fact is that any time a scrum goes awry,
> referees will suspect he's the culprit and punish the Wallabies
> accordingly -- rightly or wrongly.
>
> And it doesn't take too much imagination to conjure up scenarios in
> which opposing front rows double-bluff referees into awarding them
> penalties they don't deserve.
>
> The worry is Australia's rising young looseheads still have a long way
> to go. In terms of application and technique, the Waratahs' Benn
> Robinson promises the most but his lack of size and experience is of
> serious concern.
>
> When the Hurricanes suddenly drew back on his side to whip-wheel the
> NSW scrum on Friday night, all he could do was put his hands in the air
> and complain fruitlessly to Kaplan.
>
> What the Waratahs should have done is what the Wallabies need to do
> right from the outset of their domestic campaign: take the referee out
> of the equation. Had the eight NSW forwards all taken a decisive step
> to the right, they could have countered the Hurricanes' wheel, the ball
> would have been cleared into touch and the Hurricanes would have been
> denied the platform for their only try of the match.
>
> Queensland Reds prop Greg Holmes is a potential long-term solution at
> loosehead, but his struggle for fitness and lack of upper-body strength
> means that in the short-term the Wallabies will have to wear
> considerably more grief.
>
> Back to perceptions ... Al Baxter has been Australia's most consistent
> tighthead this season but it is going to take more than one solid
> season of Super rugby for him to live down the Twickenham debacle of
> last November.
>
> When that centre field scrum, Waratahs feed, went down for a third time
> in the 70th minute on Friday night, it was virtually inevitable Kaplan
> would penalise the Waratahs -- the penalty that ended their season
> courtesy of a monster kick from Jimmy Gopperth.
>
> To that point, the scrum contest had been hard-fought and intense but
> any objective judge would have had the Hurricanes marginally ahead on
> points.
>
> And given that most refereeing decisions on scrum collapses are based
> on 20 per cent knowledge, 30 per cent intuition and 50 per cent pure
> guesswork, Kaplan was never going to give the benefit of a 50-50 call
> to Baxter. Who was sin-binned at Twickenham because he couldn't hold up
> his side of the scrum? The word gets out, after all.
>
> Baxter is one of the smartest and most articulate players doing the
> rounds and he knows how Friday's debacle will have an impact on his
> selection chances. He will make the Wallabies squad, undoubtedly,
> because Rodney Blake is the only other serious alternative at
> tighthead, but he will realise that what happened in Wellington has
> only hardened the perception he is "soft".
>
> This is the baggage John Connolly has inherited in his first season as
> Wallabies coach. Not that he didn't know in advance what he was taking
> on. As the long-time director of rugby at Bath, the club that provided
> five players to the England squad which humiliated Australia last
> November, he surely would have inside information of just what
> opposition players think of the gold scrum.
>
> The first Test of the season is just three weeks away, appropriately
> enough against England. Unless Connolly and his forwards gurus Michael
> Foley and Alec Evans are able to turn that perception around, it's
> going to be a long, hard year for the Wallabies and their coaching
> staff.
>
>
> ***************************
> Now you've read that, read this:
>
> http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3616680a1823,00.html

Oh boo hoo. The Wannabes illegally manipulated scrums for several
years under Young and more recently, Baxter. FINALLY the refs wised up,
and now the incumbent front rowers are having to wear the stigma.

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringingdown the scrum [message #1036398 ]

Mon, 22 May 2006 00:06

Rick Boyd

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringing down the scrum [message #1036434 ]

Mon, 22 May 2006 07:57

ERNEST THE SHEEP

Kozz wrote:

<snip>

Okay dude, the article by Smith is a well written, insightful piece of
sports journalism. However Long's article is by comparison a worthless
beat-up, shrill and vulgar and typically Kiwi in attitude. So what's
your point dude?

If it was merely to contrast Australian sophistication and eloquence
with NZ vulgarity and bitchiness then I reckon that is already a given.
Your posts alone to this newsgroup provide more than enough proof of
that fact.

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringing down the scrum [message #1036441 ]

Mon, 22 May 2006 08:29

Rick Boyd

Ernest_the_Sheep [at] hotmail.com wrote:
> Kozz wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> Okay dude, the article by Smith is a well written, insightful piece of
> sports journalism. However Long's article is by comparison a worthless
> beat-up, shrill and vulgar and typically Kiwi in attitude. So what's
> your point dude?

The point is that Aussie Dean is as big a Skippy apologist as any more
honest convict who has the guts to own up to his own nationality.

No wonder you love Australia so much, Dean, your national rugby team's
jumper is the same colour as the streak down the middle of your back.

-- rick boyd

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringing down the scrum [message #1036478 ]

Mon, 22 May 2006 11:14

stex

rick boyd wrote:
> Ernest_the_Sheep [at] hotmail.com wrote:
> > Kozz wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > Okay dude, the article by Smith is a well written, insightful piece of
> > sports journalism. However Long's article is by comparison a worthless
> > beat-up, shrill and vulgar and typically Kiwi in attitude. So what's
> > your point dude?
>
> The point is that Aussie Dean is as big a Skippy apologist as any more
> honest convict who has the guts to own up to his own nationality.
>
> No wonder you love Australia so much, Dean, your national rugby team's
> jumper is the same colour as the streak down the middle of your back.
>
> -- rick boyd

Dont be so nasty. Thought we'd lost Comical Ernie and I'm waiting to
be enlightened on how NZ can learn from the wonderful ARU protocols,
esp

Gregans suspension
Wendall's cocaine use
How gracious the Tah's were in their semi final defeat

And they say a weeks a long time in politics

Stex

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringing down the scrum [message #1036494 ]

Mon, 22 May 2006 11:57

ERNEST THE SHEEP

Stex wrote:

> rick boyd wrote:
> > Ernest_the_Sheep [at] hotmail.com wrote:
> > > Kozz wrote:
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > Okay dude, the article by Smith is a well written, insightful piece of
> > > sports journalism. However Long's article is by comparison a worthless
> > > beat-up, shrill and vulgar and typically Kiwi in attitude. So what's
> > > your point dude?
> >
> > The point is that Aussie Dean is as big a Skippy apologist as any more
> > honest convict who has the guts to own up to his own nationality.
> >
> > No wonder you love Australia so much, Dean, your national rugby team's
> > jumper is the same colour as the streak down the middle of your back.
> >
> > -- rick boyd
>
> Dont be so nasty. Thought we'd lost Comical Ernie and I'm waiting to
> be enlightened on how NZ can learn from the wonderful ARU protocols,
> esp
>
> Gregans suspension

I was shocked and dismayed that George was given one game off. It was
too much. That alleged spear tackle was clearly accidental and the
Otago player was not hurt. Contrast that with Tana who got off scot
free even though his spear tackle was clearly premeditated and resulted
in a not insignificant injury to the victim.

> Wendall's cocaine use

Testing for recreational drug use is outrageous. It is a bloody
disgrace that Sailor could be facing a two year ban for such an
indiscretion. If he is banned then the matter should be taken to the
International Court of Human Rights.

> How gracious the Tah's were in their semi final defeat

I too thought they were rather gracious in defeat given the
circumstances. Clearly a home town decision at the end there from
Kaplan, but that is the reward you get for securing the home advantage.

>
> And they say a weeks a long time in politics

Do they?

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringing down the scrum [message #1036498 ]

Mon, 22 May 2006 12:04

ERNEST THE SHEEP

rick boyd wrote:

> Ernest_the_Sheep [at] hotmail.com wrote:
> > Kozz wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > Okay dude, the article by Smith is a well written, insightful piece of
> > sports journalism. However Long's article is by comparison a worthless
> > beat-up, shrill and vulgar and typically Kiwi in attitude. So what's
> > your point dude?
>
> The point is that Aussie Dean is as big a Skippy apologist as any more
> honest convict who has the guts to own up to his own nationality.
>
> No wonder you love Australia so much, Dean, your national rugby team's
> jumper is the same colour as the streak down the middle of your back.

A Skippy eh? Isn't that a term which is used by disgruntled members of
the Lebanese community as a derogatory reference to white Australians?

And now also used by disgruntled Kiwis it would seem, presumably as an
act of solidarity. How charming!

BTW Rick, I'm a born and bred Kiwi of Maori heritage.

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringing down the scrum [message #1036515 ]

Mon, 22 May 2006 13:38

oob

On Sun, 21 May 2006 15:06:22 -0700, JohnO wrote:
> Oh boo hoo. The Wannabes illegally manipulated scrums for several
> years under Young and more recently, Baxter. FINALLY the refs wised up,
> and now the incumbent front rowers are having to wear the stigma.

Exactly. At worst, it's the case of the pendulum swinging back and the
opposition getting penalties to balance out all those years of successful
Wallaby shenanigans.

In fact, it's not that extreme. It's simply the case that Australian
scrummaging has been found out and the referees are calling it accurately.

Baxter and pals are upset because they're not getting away with it any
more. The solution is a simple one;

Play the game, Convict.

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringingdown the scrum [message #1036531 ]

Mon, 22 May 2006 16:08

Rick Boyd

Ernest_the_Sheep [at] hotmail.com wrote:

> A Skippy eh? Isn't that a term which is used by disgruntled members of
> the Lebanese community as a derogatory reference to white Australians?

Put aside your Australian prejudices, convict. Skippy is a common term
used by New Zealanders to describe your fellow countrymen.

> And now also used by disgruntled Kiwis it would seem, presumably as an
> act of solidarity. How charming!
>
> BTW Rick, I'm a born and bred Kiwi of Maori heritage.

Are you really? I'm Napoleon Bonaparte. Bonjour.

-- Napoleon Bonaparte (see?)

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringing down the scrum [message #1036568 ]

Mon, 22 May 2006 23:38

richard.raudon

x-no-archive:yes
> <snip>

> Okay dude, the article by Smith is a well written, insightful piece of
> sports journalism. However Long's article is by comparison a worthless
> beat-up, shrill and vulgar and typically Kiwi in attitude. So what's
> your point dude?

> If it was merely to contrast Australian sophistication and eloquence
> with NZ vulgarity and bitchiness then I reckon that is already a given.
> Your posts alone to this newsgroup provide more than enough proof of
> that fact.

blah blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah
everything New Zealand is shit
blah blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah
everything Aussie is great
blah blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah
but saying New Zealand is shit
blah blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah
and Australia is great
blah blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah
doesn't make me an Australian apologist
blah blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah

same old shit Ernie, it's boring. Your constant attempts to dress up
fervid patriotism for Australia as intelligent discussion about rugby
hold about as much interest as a patch of particularily worn,
threadbare carpet.

Come up with something new, and if possible, valid. It may be quite a
stretch, so take your time.

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringing down the scrum [message #1036569 ]

Mon, 22 May 2006 23:38

richard.raudon

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringing down the scrum [message #1036570 ]

Mon, 22 May 2006 23:38

richard.raudon

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringing down the scrum [message #1036572 ]

Tue, 23 May 2006 00:08

richard.raudon

x-no-archive:yes

I suspect this is largely a wind-up, however...

> I was shocked and dismayed that George was given one game off. It was
> too much. That alleged spear tackle was clearly accidental and the
> Otago player was not hurt. Contrast that with Tana who got off scot
> free even though his spear tackle was clearly premeditated and resulted
> in a not insignificant injury to the victim.

Lifting a player up to shoulder height and driving them headfirst into
the ground is not "accidental." Giteau's impact in the tackle may have
helped tip the balance in getting Kahui's head below his hips but
regardless, Gregan had the oppurtunity to slow the impact, and chose
not to. Given his years of experience, he knew *exactly* what he was
doing and what he should be doing to stop the tackle.

no excuses for Umaga / Mealamu tackle either. Notice that Umaga is no
longer an All Black, and no longer All Black Captain? He will be partly
remembered for his spear tackle as a captain which ended another
captain's tour.

> > Wendall's cocaine use
>Testing for recreational drug use is outrageous. It is a bloody
>disgrace that Sailor could be facing a two year ban for such an
>indiscretion. If he is banned then the matter should be taken to the
>International Court of Human Rights

Imagine what the NZ reaction would be if Irene Van Dyk tested positive
to P (crystal methamphetamine). By comparison, is the reaction to
Sailor's case really that drastic?

"Recreational drugs", as they are so euphemistically called, kill
people. Sailor is a role model, he is one of the most identifiable
public figures in NSW, Australian and world rugby and rugby league.
Young, aspiring players idolise him and want to play like him / act
like him / be like him. By testing positive for recreational drugs, the
inference is that recreational drug use is OK by Sailor.

If it were cannabis use I would agree, a two-year ban seems over-rated
especially given the widespread use of it, and it's occasional
medicinal purposes.
Cocaine? Hell, no. It's addictive, expensive, and particularily bad for
you. Sailor's positive blood test (if the B sample is also positive)
indicates Sailor is condoning cocaine use.

>> How gracious the Tah's were in their semi final defeat
>I too thought they were rather gracious in defeat given the
>circumstances. Clearly a home town decision at the end there from
>Kaplan, but that is the reward you get for securing the home advantage.

Complaining about events during the game to the media after the game is
going to do little to affect the outcome of the game. Rugby has a
tradition, at grass-roots level, of leaving everything on the field.
It's a sporting contest. If you lose, you accept the defeat (as
sportspeople) and move on with your life. You don't ask for a written
explanation of decisions by the match referee.

After the ABs lost to Australia in the semis of the WC in 2003, I
remember a distraught Jerry Collins appearing on camera - in front of
an audience of millions - saying "We played our hardest and they were
better. Please don't blame the boys - we played our best and they were
better." Didn't blame the ref. Didn't blame the touch judges. Took the
responsibility on the team and said yeah, we lost.

Compare this to Baxter, Whitaker and co whinging about ref's decisions
in the media after losing a paltry Super 14 Semi. The media is partly
responsible for this - I recall you criticising the media in the CG
with the "gold, gold, gold" coverage - nonetheless, sportspeople should
at least try to act in a sporting manner.

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringing down the scrum [message #1036574 ]

Tue, 23 May 2006 00:40

Bobs

Ernest_the_Sheep [at] hotmail.com wrote:
> Kozz wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> Okay dude, the article by Smith is a well written, insightful piece of
> sports journalism. However Long's article is by comparison a worthless
> beat-up, shrill and vulgar and typically Kiwi in attitude. So what's
> your point dude?
>
> If it was merely to contrast Australian sophistication and eloquence
> with NZ vulgarity and bitchiness then I reckon that is already a given.
> Your posts alone to this newsgroup provide more than enough proof of
> that fact.

Settle down, Bernard. Everyone knows you're a convict. Yet you still
play the same old game.

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringing down the scrum [message #1036576 ]

Tue, 23 May 2006 01:34

stex

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringing down the scrum [message #1036608 ]

Tue, 23 May 2006 07:08

Rick Boyd

Stex wrote:

> French war hero aye. Now I understand your stance on unbeaten

The English cheated. If it hadn't been for that lucky last minute drop
goal at Waterloo...

-- Napoleon Bonaparte

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringing down the scrum [message #1036611 ]

Tue, 23 May 2006 07:22

ERNEST THE SHEEP

Kozz wrote:

> x-no-archive:yes
>
> I suspect this is largely a wind-up, however...
>
> > I was shocked and dismayed that George was given one game off. It was
> > too much. That alleged spear tackle was clearly accidental and the
> > Otago player was not hurt. Contrast that with Tana who got off scot
> > free even though his spear tackle was clearly premeditated and resulted
> > in a not insignificant injury to the victim.
>
> Lifting a player up to shoulder height and driving them headfirst into
> the ground is not "accidental." Giteau's impact in the tackle may have
> helped tip the balance in getting Kahui's head below his hips but
> regardless, Gregan had the oppurtunity to slow the impact, and chose
> not to. Given his years of experience, he knew *exactly* what he was
> doing and what he should be doing to stop the tackle.

Dude, please stop prattling on about things you obviously have no
understanding of. We've already worked out that you are a goose so all
this extra proof you insist on providing us with it reduntant.

The so called spear tackle by George was purely accidental. Anyone who
argues that it was deliberate is either being dishonest or does not
understand the first thing about the game. Once the tackle began to go
awry there was little George could do to correct matters. You are at
least correct in mentioning the crucial role of the second player
involved. However the tackled player was not propelled with any force
towards the ground, contary to your assertions.

>
> no excuses for Umaga / Mealamu tackle either. Notice that Umaga is no
> longer an All Black, and no longer All Black Captain? He will be partly
> remembered for his spear tackle as a captain which ended another
> captain's tour.

If he'd fessed up at the time he'd no doubt be remembered more
favourably.

>
> > > Wendall's cocaine use
> >Testing for recreational drug use is outrageous. It is a bloody
> >disgrace that Sailor could be facing a two year ban for such an
> >indiscretion. If he is banned then the matter should be taken to the
> >International Court of Human Rights
>
> Imagine what the NZ reaction would be if Irene Van Dyk tested positive
> to P (crystal methamphetamine). By comparison, is the reaction to
> Sailor's case really that drastic?

I doubt anyone would care much at all. We are talking about netball, a
sport big in NZ but of no importance elsewhere in the world. But in the
very unlikely event that such a thing were to occur I've no doubt Irene
Van Kiwi's South African roots would suddenly be remembered by all
Kiwis.

>
> "Recreational drugs", as they are so euphemistically called, kill
> people. Sailor is a role model, he is one of the most identifiable
> public figures in NSW, Australian and world rugby and rugby league.
> Young, aspiring players idolise him and want to play like him / act
> like him / be like him. By testing positive for recreational drugs, the
> inference is that recreational drug use is OK by Sailor.

What a load of bullsh!t.

Sailor is not and never was a role model. Recreational drug use occurs
throughout society. Why would you think that sports people would be any
different?

I also fail to see how anyone could possibly draw the inference that
drug use is okay when Sailor is facing the prospect of an early end to
his playing career because of his indiscretion.

Yeah, drug use is bad and also illegal. But then so is assault. And if
you recall a prominent AB was arrested on assault charges earlier this
year. Luckily for him he was an AB and as we all know they get special
treatment form the NZ justice system. So he was instead given name
suppression and got granted diversion as punishment. Naturally the NZRU
did not see fit to add any extra punishment.

Now that's a real good look for the role rugby plays in NZ society,
don't you think?

>
> If it were cannabis use I would agree, a two-year ban seems over-rated
> especially given the widespread use of it, and it's occasional
> medicinal purposes.
> Cocaine? Hell, no. It's addictive, expensive, and particularily bad for
> you. Sailor's positive blood test (if the B sample is also positive)
> indicates Sailor is condoning cocaine use.
>
> >> How gracious the Tah's were in their semi final defeat
> >I too thought they were rather gracious in defeat given the
> >circumstances. Clearly a home town decision at the end there from
> >Kaplan, but that is the reward you get for securing the home advantage.
>
> Complaining about events during the game to the media after the game is
> going to do little to affect the outcome of the game. Rugby has a
> tradition, at grass-roots level, of leaving everything on the field.
> It's a sporting contest. If you lose, you accept the defeat (as
> sportspeople) and move on with your life. You don't ask for a written
> explanation of decisions by the match referee.

I don't recall hearing any complaints from the NSW officials that were
out of the ordinary as far as commenting on the game goes. But if you
did then feel free to quote them in here.

>
> After the ABs lost to Australia in the semis of the WC in 2003, I
> remember a distraught Jerry Collins appearing on camera - in front of
> an audience of millions - saying "We played our hardest and they were
> better. Please don't blame the boys - we played our best and they were
> better." Didn't blame the ref. Didn't blame the touch judges. Took the
> responsibility on the team and said yeah, we lost.

Did the NSW players blame the ref after the game? I missed the after
match interviews so cannot comment.

>
> Compare this to Baxter, Whitaker and co whinging about ref's decisions
> in the media after losing a paltry Super 14 Semi. The media is partly
> responsible for this - I recall you criticising the media in the CG
> with the "gold, gold, gold" coverage - nonetheless, sportspeople should
> at least try to act in a sporting manner.

I do not recall reading any of this whinging in the media. Could you
please provide references to exactly what it was there players are
alleged to have said.

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringing down the scrum [message #1036615 ]

Tue, 23 May 2006 07:48

Kozz wrote:

Note; all comments should be taken from the context that I am in fact a
Waratahs supporter.

> An entire season of Super 14 rugby has done little to alter the
> perception that Australian scrums are soft and the trouble is that
> these days perception has become reality. Unless the Wallabies can
> dramatically reverse that mind-set, they cannot expect anything other
> than more dud refereeing decisions.

More? Provide some proof that it was a dud decision to begin with.

> Waratahs coach Ewen McKenzie has every reason to lodge a complaint
> about the performance of South African referee Jonathan Kaplan in
> Friday's semi-final against the Hurricanes. Only one win out of 15
> matches played under him is an outcome that warrants more than cursory
> inspection, although caution needs to be taken when throwing around
> this damning statistic.
>
> Aside from derbies, Super rugby matches are always controlled by
> neutral referees which means that every time the Waratahs take on a New
> Zealand team, a South African will be in charge.
>
> Given the strength of the five NZ sides, it's inevitable the Tahs are
> going to lose far more away matches than they win, irrespective of who
> is blowing the whistle. That has to be factored into the Kaplan
> equation.

Then what, precisely, do you mean by "Waratahs coach Ewen McKenzie has
every reason to lodge a complaint about the performance of South
African referee Jonathan Kaplan in Friday's semi-final against the
Hurricanes"?

> But back to the problem of perception. When the last scrum of the
> Brumbies-Highlanders match collapsed at Canberra Stadium, who was
> referee Marius Jonker pointing at as he awarded the penalty? Needless
> to say, it was Bill Young, the same Bill Young who was targeted as a
> weak link in last year's Tri-Nations series, particularly by the
> Springboks but also, less overtly, by the All Blacks.

Young is a weak link. Always has been. He has survived through guile
during a period when the scrum was depowered. Now that the emphasis is
back, he has been shown up as the incompetent journeyman he is.

> Young is Australia's most experienced loosehead, with 46 Test caps to
> his credit, but it seems inevitable he will not reach his half-century.

Because he isn't a loosehead's arse.

> And it doesn't take too much imagination to conjure up scenarios in
> which opposing front rows double-bluff referees into awarding them
> penalties they don't deserve.

The hypocrisy is unbelievable.

> When the Hurricanes suddenly drew back on his side to whip-wheel the
> NSW scrum on Friday night, all he could do was put his hands in the air
> and complain fruitlessly to Kaplan.

Dumb prick.

> What the Waratahs should have done is what the Wallabies need to do
> right from the outset of their domestic campaign: take the referee out
> of the equation. Had the eight NSW forwards all taken a decisive step
> to the right, they could have countered the Hurricanes' wheel, the ball
> would have been cleared into touch and the Hurricanes would have been
> denied the platform for their only try of the match.

Which is the most surprising aspect. Surely with this new emphasis on
the scrum that Jelly Back Baxter was laxing lyrical about (see link
below) and with the Link as coach, Test/ S14 level players should know
of this tactic to negate a deliberately wheeled scrum?

> Back to perceptions ... Al Baxter has been Australia's most consistent
> tighthead this season but it is going to take more than one solid
> season of Super rugby for him to live down the Twickenham debacle of
> last November.

He hasn't been solid. All he has really done is improved his workrate
around the field - the same well worn path that got Eddie fired. Pick
props who can scrummage first and foremost.

> When that centre field scrum, Waratahs feed, went down for a third time
> in the 70th minute on Friday night, it was virtually inevitable Kaplan
> would penalise the Waratahs -- the penalty that ended their season
> courtesy of a monster kick from Jimmy Gopperth.

Yeah, it was a good kick. I was hoping like hell he'd fuck it up.

> To that point, the scrum contest had been hard-fought and intense but
> any objective judge would have had the Hurricanes marginally ahead on
> points.

Marginally? What game was he watching? I remember how soft the
Hurricanes scrum was not a season ago. It appears that they are the
improvers this year, not the Waratahs.

> And given that most refereeing decisions on scrum collapses are based
> on 20 per cent knowledge, 30 per cent intuition and 50 per cent pure
> guesswork, Kaplan was never going to give the benefit of a 50-50 call
> to Baxter. Who was sin-binned at Twickenham because he couldn't hold up
> his side of the scrum? The word gets out, after all.

Where does this clown get these statistics? The only person who could
actually see what was going on was Kraplan, he was standing on that
side of the scrum, but there wasn't a camera angle shown from that
side, so everyone else is merely talking out of their arse.

The simple fact of the matter is the 'Tahs scrum was under pressure and
had been all game. It was Baxter's job to anchor the scrum and keep it
stable, something he is notoriously inept at. The fact that it happened
in the last 10 mins is irrelevant. A penalisable offence is a
penalisable offence.

>
> ***************************
> Now you've read that, read this:
>
> http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3616680a1823,00.html

Classic example of your own words coming back to bite you in the arse.

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringing down the scrum [message #1036624 ]

Tue, 23 May 2006 09:28

ERNEST THE SHEEP

rick boyd wrote:

> Ernest_the_Sheep [at] hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > A Skippy eh? Isn't that a term which is used by disgruntled members of
> > the Lebanese community as a derogatory reference to white Australians?
>
> Put aside your Australian prejudices, convict. Skippy is a common term
> used by New Zealanders to describe your fellow countrymen.

I was born in NZ and have lived just about 90% of my life here, unlike
you. So I can reliably inform you that Skippy is not a widely used term
for Australians here. Perhaps a person of Australian origin might be
called Skippy, but I've hardly if ever heard anyone referred to as "a
Skippy". Perhaps you are a little out of touch having been away so
long.

>
> > And now also used by disgruntled Kiwis it would seem, presumably as an
> > act of solidarity. How charming!
> >
> > BTW Rick, I'm a born and bred Kiwi of Maori heritage.
>
> Are you really? I'm Napoleon Bonaparte. Bonjour.
>
> -- Napoleon Bonaparte (see?)

So you admit that you are short and fat and bald and have piles?

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringing down the scrum [message #1036626 ]

Tue, 23 May 2006 09:48

ERNEST THE SHEEP

Bobs wrote:

> Ernest_the_Sheep [at] hotmail.com wrote:
> > Kozz wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > Okay dude, the article by Smith is a well written, insightful piece of
> > sports journalism. However Long's article is by comparison a worthless
> > beat-up, shrill and vulgar and typically Kiwi in attitude. So what's
> > your point dude?
> >
> > If it was merely to contrast Australian sophistication and eloquence
> > with NZ vulgarity and bitchiness then I reckon that is already a given.
> > Your posts alone to this newsgroup provide more than enough proof of
> > that fact.
>
> Settle down, Bernard. Everyone knows you're a convict. Yet you still
> play the same old game.

Don't try it on with me, McAuley, you great big SPORTS-NERD. Back in my
school days we used to call blokes like you uncos! Not really clever
enough to excel academically, very keen on sports but lacking in the
necessary coordination to be any good at that. But very keen on
computers, which requires some brains, but not too many.

This newsgroup is over run with these SPORTS-NERD types. They're not
too difficult to spot. Just off hand, apart from you McAuley, there is
mg, reprobate, mitty, oob, dully, martin devlin and jd to name but a
few.

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringing down the scrum [message #1036634 ]

Tue, 23 May 2006 10:40

Neilsons

"JD" <_antipodean_ [at] bigpond.com> wrote in message
>
> Where does this clown get these statistics? The only person who could
> actually see what was going on was Kraplan, he was standing on that
> side of the scrum, but there wasn't a camera angle shown from that
> side, so everyone else is merely talking out of their arse.
>
But even the camera angle that they did have to me showed Dunnings arm at a
right angle to the ground looking very much like he was pulling Tialata
down. If Kaplan had stayed where he was I think the penalty still would have
been given.

> The simple fact of the matter is the 'Tahs scrum was under pressure and
> had been all game. It was Baxter's job to anchor the scrum and keep it
> stable, something he is notoriously inept at. The fact that it happened
> in the last 10 mins is irrelevant. A penalisable offence is a
> penalisable offence.
>
No no no - apparently the Tahs scrum is dominant!

Chers ,aMtt

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringingdown the scrum [message #1036656 ]

Tue, 23 May 2006 12:20

Rick Boyd

Ernest_the_Sheep [at] hotmail.com wrote:

> I was born in NZ and have lived just about 90% of my life here, unlike
> you. So I can reliably inform you that Skippy is not a widely used term
> for Australians here. Perhaps a person of Australian origin might be
> called Skippy, but I've hardly if ever heard anyone referred to as "a
> Skippy". Perhaps you are a little out of touch having been away so
> long.

You don't actually think you're kidding anyoen with this transparent
denial routine, do you Mowithey? Nigel Evans' dog could see you;re a
lying convict git.

> So you admit that you are short and fat and bald and have piles?

I'm not short, I'm not fat, I am scalp enhanced and I do NOT have Mowitheys.

-- rick boyd

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringing down the scrum [message #1036706 ]

Wed, 24 May 2006 00:25

richard.raudon

x-no-archive:yes

> We''ve already worked out that you are a goose so all this extra proof you insist on providing us with it reduntant.

By "we" you're referring to your multiple personalities, Morrissey
Breen and Ernest the Sheep of course?

> The so called spear tackle by George was purely accidental. Anyone who
> argues that it was deliberate is either being dishonest or does not
> understand the first thing about the game. Once the tackle began to go
> awry there was little George could do to correct matters. You are at
> least correct in mentioning the crucial role of the second player
> involved. However the tackled player was not propelled with any force
> towards the ground, contary to your assertions.

The key issue is control. Gregan had control of the tackle. Where
there's control it can't be labelled an accident.

Watch the Tah/Cane semi, see Holwell get dumped by a tackler (Turunui?)
who realises halfway through the hit that Holwell's getting up towards
shoulder height and will go head-first into the ground. Tackler changes
body position, pulls Holwell up. Holwell hits ground lengthways,
arm-first. No penalty - no foul - no injury (though Holwell was a bit
stunned). Gregan should have done this, didn't, got banned for a week,
didn't make the semi. Won't do it again.

> If he'd fessed up at the time he'd no doubt be remembered more
> favourably.

No doubt.

> I doubt anyone would care much at all. We are talking about netball, a
> sport big in NZ but of no importance elsewhere in the world. But in the
> very unlikely event that such a thing were to occur I've no doubt Irene
> Van Kiwi's South African roots would suddenly be remembered by all
> Kiwis.

Neither of the above have any relevance.
Van Dyk is a well-respected sporting role model. If she tested positive
for methamphetamine use, she would be judged as harshly by the WADA and
public as Sailor has.

> What a load of bullsh!t.
> Sailor is not and never was a role model. Recreational drug use occurs
> throughout society. Why would you think that sports people would be any
> different?

Well, he's obviously not any more. But he's been held up as a poster
boy for NSW and Australian rugby since his transfer from league in
early 2001. He's represented his country at all levels of rugby,
including a cameo at the 02 CG in Manchester.

>From his Wikipedia entry:
"Wendell Sailor <snip dates> is one of the most charismatic
footballers of the modern era, and one of the most famous players to
have represented Australia in both Rugby Union and Rugby League."

Whether he wants to be a role model or not, or whether *you* think he
is or not, his fame and profile make him one.

> I also fail to see how anyone could possibly draw the inference that
> drug use is okay when Sailor is facing the prospect of an early end to
> his playing career because of his indiscretion.

Because HE TOOK DRUGS! Why would Sailor consume recreational chemicals
if he didn't believe drug use is OK?

And if Sailor thinks drug use is OK, then someone who holds Sailor in
high regard will have their viewpoint on drugs altered.

Your thinking is: the punishment for even being suspected of taking
recreational drugs should be enough of a deterrent to taking drugs.

However, for a naive thirteen-year-old sweating away at a public school
in NSW, who's constantly been told that drugs are bad, the fact that
Sailor took drugs in the first place contradicts the anti-drug message.

And no, I'm not that thirteen-year-old.

> But then so is assault. And if
> you recall a prominent AB was arrested on assault charges earlier this
> year. Luckily for him he was an AB and as we all know they get special
> treatment form the NZ justice system. So he was instead given name
> suppression and got granted diversion as punishment. Naturally the NZRU
> did not see fit to add any extra punishment.
> Now that's a real good look for the role rugby plays in NZ society,
> don't you think?

Neither Lauaki nor Tuitupou (both convicted of assault) are angels.
Tuitupou wasn't an AB at the time of his assault on his wife (he
punched her in a drunken argument). Lauaki was reprimanded by the
Chiefs at the time (after his quiet discussion about politics with a
Waikato bouncer). Should the AB management have done something
publicly? Yes, and they did. IIRC there was an article on Stuff.co.nz
(can't locate it) with quotes from the NZRFU about player mentoring and
internal discipline, quoting both examples. Neither have re-offended
(both incidences were first-time offences).

Should the NZRFU have reacted in the same way as the ARU reacted to the
Henjak / Tuqiri incident? I don't know. Probably. But it's hard to send
players back home in disgrace when the crimes were comitted in their
home town/country. If the AB senior player mentoring is strong enough,
why not resolve the issues internally?

However, Sailor is already a senior player in both the Tahs and the
Wallabies. Sailor has been involved in his fair share of affrays,
fights, scuffles and incidences, all of which make it into the public
spotlight. He has been warned numerous times, and contrite each time.
Rule-breaking is not isolated behaviour for Sailor.

> Did the NSW players blame the ref after the game? I missed the after
> match interviews so cannot comment.

yes, see below.

> I don't recall hearing any complaints from the NSW officials that were
> out of the ordinary as far as commenting on the game goes. But if you
> did then feel free to quote them in here.

At a quick glance:
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/bulletins/sport/200605210613/1 e4902ed
http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,593 6,19196941%255E23217,00.html
http://www.sundaytimes.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,7034, 19203952%255E2762,00.html
http://foxsports.news.com.au/story/0,8659,19194243-5002381,0 0.html

> I do not recall reading any of this whinging in the media. Could you
> please provide references to exactly what it was there players are
> alleged to have said

As above. See Fox Sports article:

general:
Further fuelling the Waratahs rage was that three key decisions they
later disputed led directly to 13 points for the Kiwis.

Baxter:
"I was absolutely perplexed at being penalised in the last one," he
said. "He said I was dragging the scrum down. I said I don't think I
was."

McKenzie:
Waratahs coach Ewen McKenzie claimed the 70th-minute ruling that
Waratahs prop Al Baxter collapsed a scrum on halfway was one from "the
mystery vault".

Whitaker;
"I told him they were rucking the **** out of me," Whitaker explained.
"He didn't like the way I said it and marched me 10m."

No doubt these are snippets from the interview taken entirely out of
context, which can be pointed back at the media.

But even saying it smacks of being a sore loser. If the Canes had lost,
would they have complained? Nope. They would've been stoked to get to
the semis at home, and disappointed in not getting into the final, but
they wouldn't have whinged about the ref to the media.

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringingdown the scrum [message #1036708 ]

Wed, 24 May 2006 00:39

Lindsay

Ernest_the_Sheep [at] hotmail.com wrote:
> rick boyd wrote:
>
>> Ernest_the_Sheep [at] hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> A Skippy eh? Isn't that a term which is used by disgruntled members of
>>> the Lebanese community as a derogatory reference to white Australians?
>> Put aside your Australian prejudices, convict. Skippy is a common term
>> used by New Zealanders to describe your fellow countrymen.
>
> I was born in NZ and have lived just about 90% of my life here, unlike
> you. So I can reliably inform you that Skippy is not a widely used term
> for Australians here. Perhaps a person of Australian origin might be
> called Skippy, but I've hardly if ever heard anyone referred to as "a
> Skippy". Perhaps you are a little out of touch having been away so
> long.

That's the same as never hearing somebody called Kiwi in NZ but you
certainly will elsewhere. Skippy is well used in NZ,UK,USA and Canada,
the same as Kiwi, it's not confined only to use by those of Lebanese
origin.

>
>>> And now also used by disgruntled Kiwis it would seem, presumably as an
>>> act of solidarity. How charming!
>>>
>>> BTW Rick, I'm a born and bred Kiwi of Maori heritage.
>> Are you really? I'm Napoleon Bonaparte. Bonjour.
>>
>> -- Napoleon Bonaparte (see?)
>
> So you admit that you are short and fat and bald and have piles?
>

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringing down the scrum [message #1036732 ]

Wed, 24 May 2006 06:52

Bully

Lindsay wrote:
> Ernest_the_Sheep [at] hotmail.com wrote:
>> rick boyd wrote:
>>
>>> Ernest_the_Sheep [at] hotmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> A Skippy eh? Isn't that a term which is used by disgruntled
>>>> members of the Lebanese community as a derogatory reference to
>>>> white Australians?
>>> Put aside your Australian prejudices, convict. Skippy is a common
>>> term used by New Zealanders to describe your fellow countrymen.
>>
>> I was born in NZ and have lived just about 90% of my life here,
>> unlike you. So I can reliably inform you that Skippy is not a widely
>> used term for Australians here. Perhaps a person of Australian
>> origin might be called Skippy, but I've hardly if ever heard anyone
>> referred to as "a Skippy". Perhaps you are a little out of touch
>> having been away so long.
>
> That's the same as never hearing somebody called Kiwi in NZ but you
> certainly will elsewhere. Skippy is well used in NZ,UK,

No it isn't.

> USA and Canada,
> the same as Kiwi, it's not confined only to use by those of Lebanese
> origin.
>
>>
>>>> And now also used by disgruntled Kiwis it would seem, presumably
>>>> as an act of solidarity. How charming!
>>>>
>>>> BTW Rick, I'm a born and bred Kiwi of Maori heritage.
>>> Are you really? I'm Napoleon Bonaparte. Bonjour.
>>>
>>> -- Napoleon Bonaparte (see?)
>>
>> So you admit that you are short and fat and bald and have piles?

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
Supps: http://www.myprotein.co.uk - 5% off with my discount code MP4858

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringing down the scrum [message #1036763 ]

Wed, 24 May 2006 11:50

Mitticus

Lindsay <nitwit2 [at] yahoo.com> writes:

> Ernest_the_Sheep [at] hotmail.com wrote:
>> rick boyd wrote:
>>
>>> Ernest_the_Sheep [at] hotmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> A Skippy eh? Isn't that a term which is used by disgruntled members of
>>>> the Lebanese community as a derogatory reference to white Australians?
>>> Put aside your Australian prejudices, convict. Skippy is a common term
>>> used by New Zealanders to describe your fellow countrymen.
>> I was born in NZ and have lived just about 90% of my life here,
>> unlike
>> you. So I can reliably inform you that Skippy is not a widely used term
>> for Australians here. Perhaps a person of Australian origin might be
>> called Skippy, but I've hardly if ever heard anyone referred to as "a
>> Skippy". Perhaps you are a little out of touch having been away so
>> long.
>
> That's the same as never hearing somebody called Kiwi in NZ but you
> certainly will elsewhere. Skippy is well used in NZ,UK,USA and Canada,
> the same as Kiwi, it's not confined only to use by those of Lebanese
> origin.

Skippy isnt used in the UK : unless referring to Aus's second favorite
export after Kylie - Skippy the Bush Kangaroo. Aussies are "Ozzies" and
invariably tagged "Oz" or "Convict".

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringingdown the scrum [message #1036857 ]

Wed, 24 May 2006 20:09

Mike

Walter Mitty wrote:
> Lindsay <nitwit2 [at] yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> Ernest_the_Sheep [at] hotmail.com wrote:
>>> rick boyd wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ernest_the_Sheep [at] hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> A Skippy eh? Isn't that a term which is used by disgruntled members of
>>>>> the Lebanese community as a derogatory reference to white Australians?
>>>> Put aside your Australian prejudices, convict. Skippy is a common term
>>>> used by New Zealanders to describe your fellow countrymen.
>>> I was born in NZ and have lived just about 90% of my life here,
>>> unlike
>>> you. So I can reliably inform you that Skippy is not a widely used term
>>> for Australians here. Perhaps a person of Australian origin might be
>>> called Skippy, but I've hardly if ever heard anyone referred to as "a
>>> Skippy". Perhaps you are a little out of touch having been away so
>>> long.
>> That's the same as never hearing somebody called Kiwi in NZ but you
>> certainly will elsewhere. Skippy is well used in NZ,UK,USA and Canada,
>> the same as Kiwi, it's not confined only to use by those of Lebanese
>> origin.
>
>
> Skippy isnt used in the UK : unless referring to Aus's second favorite
> export after Kylie - Skippy the Bush Kangaroo. Aussies are "Ozzies" and
> invariably tagged "Oz" or "Convict".

I've never heard skippy being used here in the UK (I'm too young to
remember this 'bush kangaroo' thing). Most common tag for aussies over
here is 'fucking lazy barman' usually preceeded by 'Get a move on you ..'

Mike

Re: 20% knowledge, 30% intuition, 50% guessing it's Baxter bringingdown the scrum [message #1036858 ]

Wed, 24 May 2006 20:09

Andy Mulhearn

Vorheriges Thema:	Laporte to quit after world cup
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