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Sports » rec.sport.billiard » one pocket shot
| one pocket shot [message #1006698] |
Tue, 09 May 2006 01:24 |
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START(
%AC7T6%BC7U8%CC7X2%DZ9B8%Et4B6%Ft3\2%G[7\0%H[9\8%I[0\7%J\0B0
%K[8B7%L[4B4%M[0A7%Nt4C1%Ot8B2%PI5W0%UC7D5%VC7S5%WJ9D2%XD3T8
%[r2Z3%\T0C3%]S4C9%^D1T2%eB3a3
)END
The red arrow is tangent to the 1-ball and is roughly
the angle bisector of the yellow line and the dark
line(the intended path of the 1-ball to be pocketed
into the lower right corner). The red dot(point of
tangency) is the point of contact for the shot. Use extreme-follow.
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| Re: one pocket shot [message #1006731 ] |
Tue, 09 May 2006 17:55 |
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xtrpool wrote:
> START(
> %AC7T6%BC7U8%CC7X2%DZ9B8%Et4B6%Ft3\2%G[7\0%H[9\8%I[0\7%J\0B0
> %K[8B7%L[4B4%M[0A7%Nt4C1%Ot8B2%PI5W0%UC7D5%VC7S5%WJ9D2%XD3T8
> %[r2Z3%\T0C3%]S4C9%^D1T2%eB3a3
> )END
>
>
>
> The red arrow is tangent to the 1-ball and is roughly
> the angle bisector of the yellow line and the dark
> line(the intended path of the 1-ball to be pocketed
> into the lower right corner). The red dot(point of
> tangency) is the point of contact for the shot. Use extreme-follow.
This looks like a kissback shot (where the cue ball double kisses the
object ball as it comes off the rail, caroming it to the side rail for
the bank shot). Some comments:
1. I doubt that the extreme follow is necessary, since the double kiss
happens before the follow has a chance to work.
2. I think the OB contact point has to be found by trial and error (and
is *very* sensitive to error). The fact that it seems to bisect two
other angles in this case is coincidental, I think.
Several months ago I watched Deno coaching Allison and Gerda for a trick
shot competition they were going to, and one of the shots he taught them
was similar:
START(
%AO9C9%BN7C9%DZ9B8%Et4B6%Ft3\2%G[7\0%H[9\8%I[0\7%J\0B0%K[8B7
%L[4B4%M[0A7%Nt4C1%Ot8B2%PO7S2%WP1E9%XO7S1%[E7C8%\N7C9%]D3Z4
%^O7C9%eB3a3
)END
If I remember it right, the two object balls are frozen together and to
the rail. The combo shot goes automatically, of course - it's the
kissback 'bank' to the other corner that takes extreme
accuracy/consistency. Gerda was hitting it almost 100% by the time they
were done, but that's because she had the opportunity to try the exact
same shot over and over. If a slightly different shot came up in play
and she had only one try to make it, I'd bet against her.
pj
chgo
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| Re: one pocket shot [message #1006756 ] |
Tue, 09 May 2006 21:26 |
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Patrick Johnson wrote:
> xtrpool wrote:
> > START(
> > %AC7T6%BC7U8%CC7X2%DZ9B8%Et4B6%Ft3\2%G[7\0%H[9\8%I[0\7%J\0B0
> > %K[8B7%L[4B4%M[0A7%Nt4C1%Ot8B2%PI5W0%UC7D5%VC7S5%WJ9D2%XD3T8
> > %[r2Z3%\T0C3%]S4C9%^D1T2%eB3a3
> > )END
> >
> >
> >
> > The red arrow is tangent to the 1-ball and is roughly
> > the angle bisector of the yellow line and the dark
> > line(the intended path of the 1-ball to be pocketed
> > into the lower right corner). The red dot(point of
> > tangency) is the point of contact for the shot. Use extreme-follow.
>
> This looks like a kissback shot (where the cue ball double kisses the
> object ball as it comes off the rail, caroming it to the side rail for
> the bank shot). Some comments.
>
> 1. I doubt that the extreme follow is necessary, since the double kiss
> happens before the follow has a chance to work.
>
> 2. I think the OB contact point has to be found by trial and error (and
> is *very* sensitive to error). The fact that it seems to bisect two
> other angles in this case is coincidental, I think.
>
> Several months ago I watched Deno coaching Allison and Gerda for a trick
> shot competition they were going to, and one of the shots he taught them
> was similar:
>
> START(
> %AO9C9%BN7C9%DZ9B8%Et4B6%Ft3\2%G[7\0%H[9\8%I[0\7%J\0B0%K[8B7
> %L[4B4%M[0A7%Nt4C1%Ot8B2%PO7S2%WP1E9%XO7S1%[E7C8%\N7C9%]D3Z4
> %^O7C9%eB3a3
> )END
>
> If I remember it right, the two object balls are frozen together and to
> the rail. The combo shot goes automatically, of course - it's the
> kissback 'bank' to the other corner that takes extreme
> accuracy/consistency. Gerda was hitting it almost 100% by the time they
> were done, but that's because she had the opportunity to try the exact
> same shot over and over. If a slightly different shot came up in play
> and she had only one try to make it, I'd bet against her.
>
> pj
> chgo
The follow english is just to keep the cueball downtable to avoid
"selling out". The shot would be considered sucessfull if the object
ball stops within a few inches of pocket. The bisector is the key to
kissbank shots. Draw lengthens the angle; follow shortens the angle.
(In MHO, of course)
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| Re: one pocket shot [message #1006778 ] |
Wed, 10 May 2006 08:00 |
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"Patrick Johnson" wrote:
>
>
> ... contact point ... *very* sensitive to error ...
>
> ... Deno ... Allison ... Gerda ... trick shot ...
>
> START(
> %AO9C9%BN7C9%DZ9B8%Et4B6%Ft3\2%G[7\0%H[9\8%I[0\7%J\0B0%K[8B7
> %L[4B4%M[0A7%Nt4C1%Ot8B2%PO7S2%WP1E9%XO7S1%[E7C8%\N7C9%]D3Z4
> %^O7C9%eB3a3
> )END
>
Whether or not you use follow or draw will DEFINITELY change the interaction
of the double-kiss on "xtrpool's" shot. However, I agree with your point on
sensitivity to error. Just for kicks, I took your diagram, above, and made
NO CHANGES other than I added xtrpool's "approximate bisector" with a
tangent point on the 1-ball to see what it looked like. It pretty much
looks like you can aim right at the tangent point to accomplish Deno's trick
shot. Here it is:
START(
%AO9C9%BN7C9%DZ9B8%Et4B6%Ft3\2%G[7\0%H[9\8%I[0\7%J\0B0%K[8B7
%L[4B4%M[0A7%Nt4C1%Ot8B2%PO7S2%WP1E9%XO7S1%[E7C8%\N7C9%]D3Z4
%^O7C9%eB3a3%_C7J5%`J9G0%aP1D3
)END
Mike Collier
Oak Harbor, WA
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| Re: one pocket shot [message #1006781 ] |
Wed, 10 May 2006 09:42 |
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To refine "approx. bisector" for Deno's shot use the diagram below.
START(
%AO9C9%BN7C9%DZ9B8%Et4B6%Ft3\2%G[7\0%H[9\8%I[0\7%J\0B0%K[8B7
%L[4B4%M[0A7%Nt4C1%Ot8B2%PO7S2%WP6F2%XO7S1%YD1M6%ZP3D3%[E7C8
%\N7C9%]D3Z4%^O7C9%eB3a3
)END
The green tangent is aimed at the second(middle) diamond on the short
rail, and the object ball will travel toward the fourth arrow(which in
this case is the pocket). So the bisector really should be thought of
as "halving the number of diamonds" rather than halving the number of
degrees. Remember the green point of tangency is the contact point
between the cue ball and object ball, not necessarily the aiming
point(using the imaginary ball aiming system).
Bob Barkhurst
St. Petersburg, Fl
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| Re: one pocket shot [message #1006782 ] |
Wed, 10 May 2006 09:58 |
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Correction: To refine "approx. bisector" for Deno's shot use the
diagram below.
START(
%AO9C9%BN7C9%DZ9B8%Et4B6%Ft3\2%G[7\0%H[9\8%I[0\7%J\0B0%K[8B7
%L[4B4%M[0A7%Nt4C1%Ot8B2%PO7S2%WP6F2%XO7S1%YD1M6%ZP3D3%[E7C8
%\N7C9%]D3Z4%^O7C9%eB3a3
)END
The green tangent is aimed at the second (middle) diamond on the short
rail, and the object ball will travel toward the fourth diamond (which
in
this case is the pocket). So the bisector really should be thought of
as "halving the number of diamonds" rather than halving the number of
degrees. Remember the green point of tangency is the contact point
between the cue ball and object ball, not necessarily the aiming
point(using the imaginary ball aiming system).
Bob Barkhurst
St. Petersburg, Fl
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| Re: one pocket shot [message #1006799 ] |
Wed, 10 May 2006 17:38 |
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In article <Fd2dnZqPHaWjHPzZnZ2dnUVZ_vqdnZ2d [at] comcast.com>,
"Mail Man" <not.here [at] too-long-gone.com> wrote:
> Whether or not you use follow or draw will DEFINITELY change the interaction
> of the double-kiss on "xtrpool's" shot.
I don't agree, I think Pat's comments are correct. The second
impact occurs before the ball-cloth friction has a chance to affect
the cue ball position. The cue ball spin does affect what the cue
ball eventually does after the double-kiss has occurred.
Also, shot speed has a significant affect on the shot. The reason
is that the object ball will be in contact with the cushion for
about the same amount of time regardless of the shot speed (a very
slightly shorter time for harder shots, but not much different),
whereas the sideways speed of the cue ball is directly proportional
to the initial shot speed. Basically, for Deno's trick shot, this
means that the harder you shoot, the thinner will be the second
collision impact and the object ball will rebound closer to
perpendicular.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
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| Re: one pocket shot [message #1006802 ] |
Wed, 10 May 2006 18:13 |
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Ron Shepard wrote:
> In article <Fd2dnZqPHaWjHPzZnZ2dnUVZ_vqdnZ2d [at] comcast.com>,
> "Mail Man" <not.here [at] too-long-gone.com> wrote:
>
> > Whether or not you use follow or draw will DEFINITELY change the interaction
> > of the double-kiss on "xtrpool's" shot.
>
> I don't agree, I think Pat's comments are correct. The second
> impact occurs before the ball-cloth friction has a chance to affect
> the cue ball position. The cue ball spin does affect what the cue
> ball eventually does after the double-kiss has occurred.
>
> Also, shot speed has a significant affect on the shot. The reason
> is that the object ball will be in contact with the cushion for
> about the same amount of time regardless of the shot speed (a very
> slightly shorter time for harder shots, but not much different),
> whereas the sideways speed of the cue ball is directly proportional
> to the initial shot speed. Basically, for Deno's trick shot, this
> means that the harder you shoot, the thinner will be the second
> collision impact and the object ball will rebound closer to
> perpendicular.
>
> $.02 -Ron Shepard
For show purposes Deno's shot would be much easier by placing the cue
ball for a fuller hit on the object ball. Speed would be much less of a
factor. See diagram:
START(
%AO9C9%BN7C9%DZ9B8%Et4B6%Ft3\2%G[7\0%H[9\8%I[0\7%J\0B0%K[8B7
%L[4B4%M[0A7%Nt4C1%Ot8B2%PW9N8%WQ6F2%XW6N3%YD1M7%ZP3D4%[E7C8
%\N7C9%]D3Z4%^O7C9%eB3a3
)END
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| Re: one pocket shot [message #1006837 ] |
Thu, 11 May 2006 07:43 |
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In article <1147277596.693092.151790 [at] u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
"xtrpool" <bob [at] xtrpool.com> wrote:
> For show purposes Deno's shot would be much easier by placing the cue
> ball for a fuller hit on the object ball. Speed would be much less of a
> factor. See diagram:
>
> START(
> %AO9C9%BN7C9%DZ9B8%Et4B6%Ft3\2%G[7\0%H[9\8%I[0\7%J\0B0%K[8B7
> %L[4B4%M[0A7%Nt4C1%Ot8B2%PW9N8%WQ6F2%XW6N3%YD1M7%ZP3D4%[E7C8
> %\N7C9%]D3Z4%^O7C9%eB3a3
> )END
Yes, that is a good point, the angle affects how important shot
speed is to the shot. Here is another version of the same kind of
double-kiss shot. In this version, the goal is to pocket the
9-ball. If the object balls are set up correctly, all you have to
do is hit the 1-ball at any speed. Shot speed is taken out entirely.
START(
%AR3D9%BN7C9%CQ2D3%DZ9B8%Et4B6%Ft3\2%G[7\0%H[9\8%IP0C9%J\0B0
%K[8B7%L[4B4%Nt4C1%Ot8B2%Pa7K6%US6E7%V`8K3%WE3Z7%XP4D8%[E7C8
%\N7C9%]D3Z4%^O7C9%eB3a3
)END
This shot works on the same principle as Deno's shot, but in this
version the 9-ball caroms off of the 2-ball into the cushion,
rebounds, and kisses off the 3-ball rather than the cue ball. In
the setup, the tangent between the 9-ball and the 3-ball should
point to a spot on the long cushion close to the pocket. The cue
ball, 1-ball, 3-ball, and 9-ball should be in a prefect straight
line that is perpendicular to the 9-ball path. The 3-ball doesn't
move very far when you shoot the shot even though it is basically
hit twice (once by the 1-ball, and again by the rebounding 9-ball).
Now consider taking away the 1-ball from this setup. The 9-ball
will still go as long as the cue ball hits the 3-ball where the
1-ball was originally frozen. Next consider taking away both the
1-ball and the 3-ball. Now the 9-ball will go provided the cue ball
hits the 9-ball where the 3-ball was originally frozen. Shot speed
is not important at this angle because the cue ball stops dead still
(almost) when it hits the 9-ball full.
In Deno's trick shot version, the cue ball does need to move to the
side a little before the second impact occurs. That is why shot
speed is so important in that version.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
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| Re: one pocket shot [message #1006849 ] |
Thu, 11 May 2006 13:52 |
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Ron, I'm having trouble with your setup as shown and described. Your
shot works if the two ball is within one diamond or so of the pocket,
but out as far as two diamonds the shot does not go. I think this
because the 9-ball always comes off the rail with top spin and after
the kiss, dives into the long rail side of the pocket. Try this on
your table again to see what happens. thanks.
Bob Barkhurst
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| Re: one pocket shot [message #1006855 ] |
Thu, 11 May 2006 14:22 |
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Try the following setup to see the effect the topspin on the nineball
(after coming off the rail) has on the shot. Again the green arrow is
the tangent and the green dot the point of tangency and the contact
point between cue ball and object ball. The effect of draw or follow is
also dramatically seen. Practice this shot and you should be able the
put the nine ball in the in the one diamond square around the pocket a
very high percentage of the time.
START(
%Ip6Z9%K[0\8%NC0\2%Ps0V0%YD2P2%Zp7Z1%[D7D0%\o8Z6
)END
long live one-pocket
Bob Barkhurst
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| Re: one pocket shot [message #1006859 ] |
Thu, 11 May 2006 16:40 |
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In article <1147348333.799670.124550 [at] q12g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"xtrpool" <bob [at] xtrpool.com> wrote:
> Ron, I'm having trouble with your setup as shown and described. Your
> shot works if the two ball is within one diamond or so of the pocket,
> but out as far as two diamonds the shot does not go. I think this
> because the 9-ball always comes off the rail with top spin and after
> the kiss, dives into the long rail side of the pocket. Try this on
> your table again to see what happens. thanks.
I do believe that you might have to make small adjustments from the
exact tangent line due to the fact that the balls never weigh
exactly the same, collision inelasticity, and other small effects,
but it should work pretty well as I described it. If the 9-ball is
hitting the side cushion consistently, then change the cue-1-3 line
slightly to compensate, or if it is hitting the end cushion
consistently, then change the line in the other direction. Once it
is set up correctly, then you should be able to pocket the 9-ball
with just about any shot speed and cue ball spin.
Also, I don't know exactly what you mean by topspin on the 9-ball.
Where do you think the 9-ball gets the topspin? Is it transferred
from the cue ball through the 1-ball, then to the 3-ball, and then
to the 9-ball? That doesn't sound plausible. I do think a small
amount of topspin can be transferred from the cue ball (with draw)
to the 1-ball, but getting to the second and then the third ball in
a combination is not plausible. You can test this by shooting the
shot with topspin and with draw on the cue ball; you will see that
the 9-ball does the same thing in all cases. Or do you mean the
topspin due to the fact that the cushion touches the 9-ball above
center? If that's what you mean, then this is an effect similar to
the ball weight mismatch, etc., and the answer is just to change the
line of the cue-1-3 to compensate.
Here is another trick shot based on this same double-kiss principle.
START(
%Bq7I4%Co7H7%Dm7G9%El5F1%Fl8C9%Gn2C8%Ho2D5%Pr5E5%Qs5A7
)END
I have set this up as an 8-ball shot, but it can be set up as a
one-pocket shot too. The 6-7-8 are frozen to each other and the 6-7
are both frozen to the cushion. You are on the 8-ball, and your
opponent's balls are scattered around the table to prevent any kind
of straightforward kick shot or carom shot into side pockets or end
pockets at the other end of the table. The answer (which should be
fairly clear now that we have been discussing double-kiss shots) is
to call the 8-ball in pocket A and to shoot to hit the 8-ball just
to the left of the 7-8 line. This causes the 8-ball to move to the
right while the 7-ball is driven into the cushion. By the time the
7-ball rebounds, the 8-ball has moved over enough so that the
double-kiss sends it straight into the target pocket.
In this shot, it is the 8-ball trajectory that is important, whereas
in Deno's trick shot it is the trajectory of the ball frozen to the
cushion that is important, but in both cases, it is the same kind of
double-kiss that accomplishes the deed.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
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| Re: one pocket shot [message #1006861 ] |
Thu, 11 May 2006 17:08 |
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That not an 8-ball shot. That and ol' one-pocket shot! Eight and out
from there!
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