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Sports » rec.sport.baseball » Breaking the Color barrier
| Breaking the Color barrier [message #1005212] |
Sun, 07 May 2006 17:52 |
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We just learned that the NFL broke the color barrier with 4 players,
2 in Cleveland and 2 in LA, in 1946, a year before Robinson.
We don't know about you, but learning this kind of takes a bit of
the sheen off Robinson's accomplishment.
IOW, he wasn't the first.
cordially, as always,
rm
--
Even Nelson Lu has no clue!
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1005217 ] |
Sun, 07 May 2006 18:34 |
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The NBL (predecessor to the NBA) integrated in 1942.
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1005218 ] |
Sun, 07 May 2006 18:57 |
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Roger Nullset <xorbathegeek [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
> The NBL (predecessor to the NBA) integrated in 1942.
Well that makes what Rickey did less significant in our opinion.
cordially, as always,
rm
--
Even Nelson Lu has no clue!
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1005220 ] |
Sun, 07 May 2006 19:33 |
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On Sun, 07 May 2006 16:57:30 GMT, Realto Margarino <rm [at] youasked.org>
wrote:
>Roger Nullset <xorbathegeek [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> The NBL (predecessor to the NBA) integrated in 1942.
>
>Well that makes what Rickey did less significant in our opinion.
>
>cordially, as always,
>
>rm
Well, we already knew that stolen bases were over-rated anyway. :-P
Tom
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015030 ] |
Mon, 08 May 2006 20:48 |
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Realto Margarino wrote:
> We just learned that the NFL broke the color barrier with 4 players,
> 2 in Cleveland and 2 in LA, in 1946, a year before Robinson.
>
> We don't know about you, but learning this kind of takes a bit of
> the sheen off Robinson's accomplishment.
>
> IOW, he wasn't the first.
>
> cordially, as always,
>
> rm
> --
> Even Nelson Lu has no clue!
Big deal. You couldn't have run an MLB team on the total attendance of
the NFL in the late Forties. It just didn't matter on a national scale.
Of even less importance was the integration of the NBL a few years
earlier. Truman's executive order integrating the armed services was
certainly more important but it came later.
On the other hand, the guys who integrated the NFL had to have had a
great deal of concern with the ease with which a bigot could take a
cheap shot at one of them. While people certainly took shots at
Robinson, it was harder to conceal such an action as the game itself is
less violent and has fewer moments where ones actions are hidden by the
mass of players.
Someone who can bear to think about football without being paralyzed by
boredome (in other words, not me) might find some interesting incidents
if he researched those early NFL Black players.
Even though I disagree with your conclusion, thanks for bringing it up.
It is an interesting fact.
Will in New Haven
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015032 ] |
Mon, 08 May 2006 21:13 |
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Will in New Haven wrote:
>Realto Margarino wrote:
>> We just learned that the NFL broke the color barrier with 4 players,
>> 2 in Cleveland and 2 in LA, in 1946, a year before Robinson.
>> We don't know about you, but learning this kind of takes a bit of
>> the sheen off Robinson's accomplishment.
>> IOW, he wasn't the first.
>> cordially, as always,
>> rm
>> --
>> Even Nelson Lu has no clue!
>Big deal. You couldn't have run an MLB team on the total attendance of
>the NFL in the late Forties. It just didn't matter on a national scale.
>Of even less importance was the integration of the NBL a few years
>earlier. Truman's executive order integrating the armed services was
>certainly more important but it came later.
>On the other hand, the guys who integrated the NFL had to have had a
>great deal of concern with the ease with which a bigot could take a
>cheap shot at one of them. While people certainly took shots at
>Robinson, it was harder to conceal such an action as the game itself is
>less violent and has fewer moments where ones actions are hidden by the
>mass of players.
>Someone who can bear to think about football without being paralyzed by
>boredome (in other words, not me) might find some interesting incidents
>if he researched those early NFL Black players.
>Even though I disagree with your conclusion, thanks for bringing it up.
>It is an interesting fact.
I share your boredom regarding football, but this is the type of
incident you are probably thinking about:
http://tinyurl.com/p5sbl
This incident occurred in a game between Oklahoma A & M (now Oklahoma
State) and Drake University. I've heard it was the first game where
Oklahoma A & M had played against a team with a black player. One of
the Oklahoma A & M players hit Johnny Bright (Drake's best player) with
a blind-side punch after the play was over, and no penalty was called.
Bright's jaw was broken and (I believe) his season was over. The
incident was caught on film, resulting in a Pulitzer Prize for the
photographer.
Phil Fink
In a game between Oklahoma A & M (now Oklahoma State) and Drake
University One of the Oklahoma A & M (now Oklahoma State University)
players hit Johnny Bright after the play
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015043 ] |
Mon, 08 May 2006 23:50 |
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fink [at] ccs.fau.edu <fink [at] ccs.fau.edu> trolled:
> I share your boredom regarding football, but this is the type of
> incident you are probably thinking about:
> http://tinyurl.com/p5sbl
This url returns an error.
> This incident occurred in a game between Oklahoma A & M (now
> Oklahoma State) and Drake University. I've heard it was the first
> game where Oklahoma A & M had played against a team with a black
> player. One of the Oklahoma A & M players hit Johnny Bright
> (Drake's best player) with a blind-side punch after the play was
> over, and no penalty was called. Bright's jaw was broken and (I
> believe) his season was over. The incident was caught on film,
> resulting in a Pulitzer Prize for the photographer.
We wouldn't mind seeing the article. Bright went on to become a big
star in the CFL for the Edmonton Eskimos.
cordially, as always,
rm
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015052 ] |
Tue, 09 May 2006 03:13 |
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<fink [at] ccs.fau.edu> wrote...
> This incident occurred in a game between Oklahoma A & M (now Oklahoma
> State) and Drake University. I've heard it was the first game where
> Oklahoma A & M had played against a team with a black player. One of
> the Oklahoma A & M players hit Johnny Bright (Drake's best player) with
> a blind-side punch after the play was over, and no penalty was called.
> Bright's jaw was broken and (I believe) his season was over.
That's bad, but nothing compared to the on-field death of Jack Trice.
http://www.isualum.org/en/traditions/traditions_of_iowa_stat e/faces_and_places/jack_trice.cfm
or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Trice
--
Bob Roman
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015055 ] |
Tue, 09 May 2006 03:56 |
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Bob Roman wrote:
> <fink [at] ccs.fau.edu> wrote...
>
>>This incident occurred in a game between Oklahoma A & M (now Oklahoma
>>State) and Drake University. I've heard it was the first game where
>>Oklahoma A & M had played against a team with a black player. One of
>>the Oklahoma A & M players hit Johnny Bright (Drake's best player) with
>>a blind-side punch after the play was over, and no penalty was called.
>>Bright's jaw was broken and (I believe) his season was over.
>
>
> That's bad, but nothing compared to the on-field death of Jack Trice.
> http://www.isualum.org/en/traditions/traditions_of_iowa_stat e/faces_and_places/jack_trice.cfm
> or
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Trice
>
> --
> Bob Roman
>
>
Except he died a few days later.
--
Steve Alpert
MIT - B.S. (Eng.) '05, M.S. (Transp.) '06
http://web.mit.edu/smalpert/www/roads
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015064 ] |
Tue, 09 May 2006 05:16 |
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On 8 May 2006 11:48:21 -0700, "Will in New Haven"
<bill.reich [at] taylorandfrancis.com> wrote:
[Piggybacking. I mean, really - does anyone read this shit?]
>Realto Margarino wrote:
>> We just learned that the NFL broke the color barrier with 4 players,
>> 2 in Cleveland and 2 in LA, in 1946, a year before Robinson.
>>
>> We don't know about you, but learning this kind of takes a bit of
>> the sheen off Robinson's accomplishment.
>>
>> IOW, he wasn't the first.
Moses Fleetwood Walker and Welday Walker are too classy, even in
death, to shit on you, RLM, but you deserve it for your ignorance.
--Craig
--
"It's great to be known, but it's better to be known as strange."
- Chairman Kaga
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015069 ] |
Tue, 09 May 2006 09:25 |
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In article <8820629gn8cdg0stu8rlac28k03666cv9h [at] 4ax.com>,
Craig Richardson <crichard-tacoma [at] worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> On 8 May 2006 11:48:21 -0700, "Will in New Haven"
> <bill.reich [at] taylorandfrancis.com> wrote:
>
> [Piggybacking. I mean, really - does anyone read this shit?]
Not any more.
--
Gerry Myerson (gerry [at] maths.mq.edi.ai) (i -> u for email)
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015071 ] |
Tue, 09 May 2006 12:38 |
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"Steve" <smalpert [at] hackmit.edu> wrote...
> Bob Roman wrote:
>> That's bad, but nothing compared to the on-field death of Jack Trice.
>>
> Except he died a few days later.
OK, I should more correctly have said, that's nothing compared to the death
of Jack Trice from racially-motivated on-field attacks.
--
Bob Roman
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015091 ] |
Tue, 09 May 2006 21:05 |
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Craig Richardson <crichard-tacoma [at] worldnet.att.net> trolled:
> Moses Fleetwood Walker and Welday Walker are too classy, even in
> death, to shit on you, RLM, but you deserve it for your ignorance.
We also just learned that the CFL also became integrated in 1946.
This means that:
professional basketball
professional football (in both countries)
professional boxing
college football
track
all preceded MLB in breaking the colour barrier.
The only major team sport not to integrate before 1947 was the NHL
but there were no black players ready to play in the NHL at that
time.
This most definitely tarnishes the hype accorded Jackie Robinson,
and more especially, Branch Rickey, for having the "courage" to be
the "first" when, in fact, Robinson was anything but the first.
This is just another example of baseball taking itself way too
seriously and too arrogantly. Although we haven't researched it, it
is quite likely that, but for the NHL, MLB was the last major league
to see blacks on every team.
All the Jackie Robinson hype makes us sad. It is just the league
using his name, quite unfairly, to make themselves out to be more
tolerant than they really were. Or even are.
cordially, as always,
rm
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015094 ] |
Tue, 09 May 2006 21:56 |
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Realto Margarino wrote:
> Craig Richardson <crichard-tacoma [at] worldnet.att.net> trolled:
>
> > Moses Fleetwood Walker and Welday Walker are too classy, even in
> > death, to shit on you, RLM, but you deserve it for your ignorance.
>
> We also just learned that the CFL also became integrated in 1946.
> This means that:
>
> professional basketball
Which drew crowds of dozens.
> professional football (in both countries)
Which was as important as kickboxing is today.
> professional boxing
Where Blacks, especially talented Blacks, were used as automatic
villains in scenarios that were much llike professional wrestling.
Although, generally, there actually WAS a contest. Also, not a team
sport.
> college football
One point for your argument. Of course, there were whole parts of the
country where you couldn't bring your Black players, entire conferences
who wouldn't schedule games with you.
> track
Not a team sport.
>
> all preceded MLB in breaking the colour barrier.
>
> The only major team sport not to integrate before 1947 was the NHL
> but there were no black players ready to play in the NHL at that
> time.
The NHL also gets a pass because hockey is non-existant.
>
> This most definitely tarnishes the hype accorded Jackie Robinson,
> and more especially, Branch Rickey, for having the "courage" to be
> the "first" when, in fact, Robinson was anything but the first.
Jackie (and Rachel, for that matter) do not deserve to have their
courage questioned. The difficulty of what they accomplished is
documented. The fact that other worthy individuals also did it is
important but they did not do it on the national stage.
>
> This is just another example of baseball taking itself way too
> seriously and too arrogantly. Although we haven't researched it, it
> is quite likely that, but for the NHL, MLB was the last major league
> to see blacks on every team.
>
> All the Jackie Robinson hype makes us sad. It is just the league
> using his name, quite unfairly, to make themselves out to be more
> tolerant than they really were. Or even are.
>
> cordially, as always,
>
> rm
Bringing this up was excellent. I don't agree at all with your
conclusions but this is an interesting discussion, neither stat-fan
stuff, nor fluff.
Why don't you participate in other non-statistical threads? Sometimes
they are quite interesting. Of course, if you read them and don't
respond, you might be enjoying them and we would never know.
Will in New Haven
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015097 ] |
Tue, 09 May 2006 22:12 |
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Will, a really, really, stupid fuck, brays:
> Realto Margarino wrote:
> > We also just learned that the CFL also became integrated in 1946.
> > This means that:
> > professional basketball
> Which drew crowds of dozens.
Wrong. Totally and absolutely wrong.
> > professional football (in both countries)
> Which was as important as kickboxing is today.
Wrong. Absolutely and totally wrong.
> > professional boxing
> Where Blacks, especially talented Blacks, were used as automatic
> villains in scenarios that were much llike professional wrestling.
> Although, generally, there actually WAS a contest. Also, not a
> team sport.
Sure. Jack Johnsoni, Joe Jeanette, and Joe Louis were just clowns,
right?
Wrong. Totally and absolutely wrong.
> > college football
> One point for your argument. Of course, there were whole parts of
> the country where you couldn't bring your Black players, entire
> conferences who wouldn't schedule games with you.
And entire conferences that would. In 1946 two entire baseball
_leagues_ wouldn't allow black players.
> > track
> Not a team sport.
Tell that to Jesse Owens and the 1936 US Olympic _Team_.
> > all preceded MLB in breaking the colour barrier.
> > The only major team sport not to integrate before 1947 was the NHL
> > but there were no black players ready to play in the NHL at that
> > time.
> The NHL also gets a pass because hockey is non-existant.
Har. Bye asshole.
PLONK
cordially, as always,
rm
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015098 ] |
Tue, 09 May 2006 22:49 |
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"Will in New Haven" <bill.reich [at] taylorandfrancis.com> wrote in message
news:1147204599.588018.310690 [at] i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Realto Margarino wrote:
>> Craig Richardson <crichard-tacoma [at] worldnet.att.net> trolled:
>>
>> > Moses Fleetwood Walker and Welday Walker are too classy, even in
>> > death, to shit on you, RLM, but you deserve it for your ignorance.
>>
>> We also just learned that the CFL also became integrated in 1946.
>> This means that:
>>
>> professional basketball
>
> Which drew crowds of dozens.
>
>> professional football (in both countries)
>
> Which was as important as kickboxing is today.
>
>> professional boxing
>
> Where Blacks, especially talented Blacks, were used as automatic
> villains in scenarios that were much llike professional wrestling.
> Although, generally, there actually WAS a contest. Also, not a team
> sport.
>
>> college football
>
> One point for your argument. Of course, there were whole parts of the
> country where you couldn't bring your Black players, entire conferences
> who wouldn't schedule games with you.
>
>> track
>
> Not a team sport.
>
>>
>> all preceded MLB in breaking the colour barrier.
>>
>> The only major team sport not to integrate before 1947 was the NHL
>> but there were no black players ready to play in the NHL at that
>> time.
>
> The NHL also gets a pass because hockey is non-existant.
>
>>
>> This most definitely tarnishes the hype accorded Jackie Robinson,
>> and more especially, Branch Rickey, for having the "courage" to be
>> the "first" when, in fact, Robinson was anything but the first.
>
> Jackie (and Rachel, for that matter) do not deserve to have their
> courage questioned. The difficulty of what they accomplished is
> documented. The fact that other worthy individuals also did it is
> important but they did not do it on the national stage.
>
>>
>> This is just another example of baseball taking itself way too
>> seriously and too arrogantly. Although we haven't researched it, it
>> is quite likely that, but for the NHL, MLB was the last major league
>> to see blacks on every team.
>>
>> All the Jackie Robinson hype makes us sad. It is just the league
>> using his name, quite unfairly, to make themselves out to be more
>> tolerant than they really were. Or even are.
>>
>> cordially, as always,
>>
>> rm
>
> Bringing this up was excellent. I don't agree at all with your
> conclusions but this is an interesting discussion, neither stat-fan
> stuff, nor fluff.
>
> Why don't you participate in other non-statistical threads? Sometimes
> they are quite interesting. Of course, if you read them and don't
> respond, you might be enjoying them and we would never know.
>
> Will in New Haven
>
The only major team sport in 1947 was baseball. Basketball was barely out of
the peach basket phase and nobody paid any attention to Pro Football.
Canadian football and hockey have never been and never will be major sports.
Who would waste their time on them?
Please do not encourage the slimey troll. It pollutes more than enough.
--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015107 ] |
Wed, 10 May 2006 00:14 |
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On Tue, 9 May 2006 13:49:35 -0700, "Easy" <easydoesit [at] earthlink.com>
wrote:
>
>"Will in New Haven" <bill.reich [at] taylorandfrancis.com> wrote in message
>news:1147204599.588018.310690 [at] i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Realto Margarino wrote:
>>> Craig Richardson <crichard-tacoma [at] worldnet.att.net> trolled:
>>>
>>> > Moses Fleetwood Walker and Welday Walker are too classy, even in
>>> > death, to shit on you, RLM, but you deserve it for your ignorance.
>>>
>>> We also just learned that the CFL also became integrated in 1946.
>>> This means that:
>>>
>>> professional basketball
>>
>> Which drew crowds of dozens.
>>
>>> professional football (in both countries)
>>
>> Which was as important as kickboxing is today.
>>
>>> professional boxing
>>
>> Where Blacks, especially talented Blacks, were used as automatic
>> villains in scenarios that were much llike professional wrestling.
>> Although, generally, there actually WAS a contest. Also, not a team
>> sport.
>>
>>> college football
>>
>> One point for your argument. Of course, there were whole parts of the
>> country where you couldn't bring your Black players, entire conferences
>> who wouldn't schedule games with you.
>>
>>> track
>>
>> Not a team sport.
>>
>>>
>>> all preceded MLB in breaking the colour barrier.
>>>
>>> The only major team sport not to integrate before 1947 was the NHL
>>> but there were no black players ready to play in the NHL at that
>>> time.
>>
>> The NHL also gets a pass because hockey is non-existant.
>>
>>>
>>> This most definitely tarnishes the hype accorded Jackie Robinson,
>>> and more especially, Branch Rickey, for having the "courage" to be
>>> the "first" when, in fact, Robinson was anything but the first.
>>
>> Jackie (and Rachel, for that matter) do not deserve to have their
>> courage questioned. The difficulty of what they accomplished is
>> documented. The fact that other worthy individuals also did it is
>> important but they did not do it on the national stage.
>>
>>>
>>> This is just another example of baseball taking itself way too
>>> seriously and too arrogantly. Although we haven't researched it, it
>>> is quite likely that, but for the NHL, MLB was the last major league
>>> to see blacks on every team.
>>>
>>> All the Jackie Robinson hype makes us sad. It is just the league
>>> using his name, quite unfairly, to make themselves out to be more
>>> tolerant than they really were. Or even are.
>>>
>>> cordially, as always,
>>>
>>> rm
>>
>> Bringing this up was excellent. I don't agree at all with your
>> conclusions but this is an interesting discussion, neither stat-fan
>> stuff, nor fluff.
>>
>> Why don't you participate in other non-statistical threads? Sometimes
>> they are quite interesting. Of course, if you read them and don't
>> respond, you might be enjoying them and we would never know.
>>
>> Will in New Haven
>>
>
>The only major team sport in 1947 was baseball. Basketball was barely out of
>the peach basket phase and nobody paid any attention to Pro Football.
>Canadian football and hockey have never been and never will be major sports.
>Who would waste their time on them?
These guys for hockey...
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hockey/nhl/specials/playoff s/2006/
I agree that our football hasn't received the attention to bring it to
major status, although I used to enjoy watching it while working the
control room at the CBC.
Tom
>
>Please do not encourage the slimey troll. It pollutes more than enough.
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015109 ] |
Wed, 10 May 2006 00:33 |
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Easy <easydoesit [at] earthlink.com> trolled:
> The only major team sport in 1947 was baseball.
Wrong.
> Basketball was barely out of the peach basket phase and nobody
> paid any attention to Pro Football.
The "peach basket phase" of basketball took place in 1891. In 1936
Basketball was an Olympic Sport. Hockey became an Olympic sport in
1920.
> Canadian football and hockey have never been and never will be
> major sports. Who would waste their time on them?
Not you, that's obvious. Hockey remains the second largest team
sport in the _world_ behind real football. And of course you know
nothing about real football, either, do you? But don't allow that
to interfere with your zealotry.
The fact remains that baseball became integrated only after track,
boxing, NFL Football, Canadian Football, World Soccer, all College
sports, and all Olympic sports. In fact, but for Golf and Tennis,
MLB integration took place after the _entire_ world of sport world
had accepted Blacks into its ranks.
And the number of fans who watched these respective sports is
immaterial. However it is clear that College Sports and the
Olympics and Soccer, all out-drew baseball by hundreds of thousands,
if not millions of fans.
Your mind is too small to compete with us, son. So lurk for awhile
and instead of braying, try to learn something.
While we have no doubt that Jackie Robinson put up with some shit,
it was nothing compared to what Johnny Bright had to put up with.
And the legendary "vision" of Branch Rickey is just so much hogwash.
Baseball was the last sport to integrate blacks.
cordially, as always,
rm
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015118 ] |
Wed, 10 May 2006 02:40 |
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Realto Margarino, troll, wrote:
> We just learned that the NFL broke the color barrier with 4 players,
> 2 in Cleveland and 2 in LA, in 1946, a year before Robinson.
>
> We don't know about you, but learning this kind of takes a bit of
> the sheen off Robinson's accomplishment.
>
> IOW, he wasn't the first.
Your willingness to shit on a great man is duly noted.
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015119 ] |
Wed, 10 May 2006 03:45 |
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--
"And reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
"Chris Cathcart" <cathcacr [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1147221629.993709.109360 [at] i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Realto Margarino, troll, wrote:
>
>> We just learned that the NFL broke the color barrier with 4 players,
>> 2 in Cleveland and 2 in LA, in 1946, a year before Robinson.
>>
>> We don't know about you, but learning this kind of takes a bit of
>> the sheen off Robinson's accomplishment.
>>
>> IOW, he wasn't the first.
>
> Your willingness to shit on a great man is duly noted.
The slime will shit on anybody in its attempt to bring everyone down to its
level. A google search of its many user names will reveal a pattern of
mental illness spread all over usenet in a variety of newsgroups. It is
universally hated, reviled and a source of disgust to all who encounter it.
This thing is barely human and should be ignored.
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015120 ] |
Wed, 10 May 2006 05:00 |
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"Chris Cathcart" <cathcacr [at] gmail.com> writes:
>Realto Margarino, troll, wrote:
>> We just learned that the NFL broke the color barrier with 4 players,
>> 2 in Cleveland and 2 in LA, in 1946, a year before Robinson.
Not really. Robinson first played in Organized Baseball in 1946 with the
IL Montreal Royals. AFAIK, the NFL was openly copying baseball when it
chose to desegregate and probably would not have done so- or not have
done so as promptly- had baseball not led the way.
>> We don't know about you, but learning this kind of takes a bit of
>> the sheen off Robinson's accomplishment.
>Your willingness to shit on a great man is duly noted.
I don't think that it's necessarily criticism of Robinson to make the
factual point that he was not the first African American in 20th Century
American sports. I see it as something like the argument about whether
Columbus was the first Old World explorer to discover America. It may
very well be true that others got there first, but it's largely
irrelevant. The other guys are footnotes because Columbus's discovery was
the one that had real historical impact. It isn't entirely fair- the
biggest difference between Columbus and the earlier explorers was his
social and technological environment, not the nature of his discovery- but
it's true.
Something similar is true of Robinson's integration of MLB. There had
been African Americans in Organized Baseball before Robinson, and other
professional and college leagues were integrated before baseball was. And
Robinson's impact was possible only because of historical factors like
WWII and the death of Judge Landis that were beyond his control.
Nonetheless, Robinson is the one who gets the credit today because he was
the one who got the attention back then. Baseball was the sport that
mattered, and Robinson (correctly) got credit for integrating it.
--
Roger Moore | Master of Meaningless Trivia | (raj [at] alumni.caltech.edu)
There's no point in questioning authority if you don't listen to the answers.
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015124 ] |
Wed, 10 May 2006 05:48 |
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On 9 May 2006 12:56:39 -0700, "Will in New Haven"
<bill.reich [at] taylorandfrancis.com> wrote:
[note: I'm quoting a /lot/, and am only not top-posting my short
response because there's a different circle of Hell reserved for the
likes of me...]
>Realto Margarino wrote:
>> Craig Richardson <crichard-tacoma [at] worldnet.att.net> trolled:
>>
>> > Moses Fleetwood Walker and Welday Walker are too classy, even in
>> > death, to shit on you, RLM, but you deserve it for your ignorance.
>>
>> We also just learned that the CFL also became integrated in 1946.
>> This means that:
>>
>> professional basketball
>
>Which drew crowds of dozens.
>
>> professional football (in both countries)
>
>Which was as important as kickboxing is today.
>
>> professional boxing
>
>Where Blacks, especially talented Blacks, were used as automatic
>villains in scenarios that were much llike professional wrestling.
>Although, generally, there actually WAS a contest. Also, not a team
>sport.
>
>> college football
>
>One point for your argument. Of course, there were whole parts of the
>country where you couldn't bring your Black players, entire conferences
>who wouldn't schedule games with you.
>
>> track
>
>Not a team sport.
>
>>
>> all preceded MLB in breaking the colour barrier.
>>
>> The only major team sport not to integrate before 1947 was the NHL
>> but there were no black players ready to play in the NHL at that
>> time.
>
>The NHL also gets a pass because hockey is non-existant.
>
>>
>> This most definitely tarnishes the hype accorded Jackie Robinson,
>> and more especially, Branch Rickey, for having the "courage" to be
>> the "first" when, in fact, Robinson was anything but the first.
>
>Jackie (and Rachel, for that matter) do not deserve to have their
>courage questioned. The difficulty of what they accomplished is
>documented. The fact that other worthy individuals also did it is
>important but they did not do it on the national stage.
>
>>
>> This is just another example of baseball taking itself way too
>> seriously and too arrogantly. Although we haven't researched it, it
>> is quite likely that, but for the NHL, MLB was the last major league
>> to see blacks on every team.
>>
>> All the Jackie Robinson hype makes us sad. It is just the league
>> using his name, quite unfairly, to make themselves out to be more
>> tolerant than they really were. Or even are.
>>
>> cordially, as always,
>>
>> rm
>
>Bringing this up was excellent. I don't agree at all with your
>conclusions but this is an interesting discussion, neither stat-fan
>stuff, nor fluff.
>
>Why don't you participate in other non-statistical threads? Sometimes
>they are quite interesting. Of course, if you read them and don't
>respond, you might be enjoying them and we would never know.
The amazing thing about all of this is that RLM went and spent minutes
and minutes typing in a medium-sized response, while still leaving in
the lines he quoted from me which torpedoed his position in advance.
Or, to put it another way, the color barrier Jackie Robinson broke
wasn't one that was established by MLB. It was one that was
/re-established/ by MLB. He was /not/ the first black player. So all
those records are meaningless. Because of the Walker brothers, and a
small handful of others.
--Craig
--
"It's great to be known, but it's better to be known as strange."
- Chairman Kaga
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015129 ] |
Wed, 10 May 2006 10:11 |
|
Craig Richardson <crichard-tacoma [at] worldnet.att.net> trolled:
> The amazing thing about all of this is that RLM went and spent
> minutes and minutes typing in a medium-sized response, while still
> leaving in the lines he quoted from me which torpedoed his
> position in advance.
Nothing you wrote "torpedoed" anything we said.
> Or, to put it another way, the color barrier Jackie Robinson broke
> wasn't one that was established by MLB. It was one that was
> /re-established/ by MLB. He was /not/ the first black player. So
> all those records are meaningless. Because of the Walker
> brothers, and a small handful of others.
There were about 30 others. And nobody would pretend that the
Walkers and the others were part of the modern era. Since it is
highly unlikely that the Walkers or any of the others could play
well enough to make the Major Leagues in the Fifties, your point is
moot.
In any case, your point was not to contradict us, it was a lame
attempt to try to impress us with your knowledge of trivia.
Bugger off.
cordially, as always,
rm
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015131 ] |
Wed, 10 May 2006 12:10 |
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Roger Moore <raj [at] alumnae.caltech.edu> trolled:
> I don't think that it's necessarily criticism of Robinson to make
> the factual point that he was not the first African American in
> 20th Century American sports. I see it as something like the
> argument about whether Columbus was the first Old World explorer
> to discover America. It may very well be true that others got
> there first, but it's largely irrelevant. The other guys are
> footnotes because Columbus's discovery was the one that had real
> historical impact. It isn't entirely fair- the biggest difference
> between Columbus and the earlier explorers was his social and
> technological environment, not the nature of his discovery- but
> it's true.
The only only explorers who preceded Columbus that we know of were
the Vikings and that is not remembered, primarily because it didn't
lead to anything. The Vikings never developed the land they
discovered and abandoned their discoveries. But the major leagues,
college sports, Olympics, and Boxing that all preceded MLB in
integration did go somewhere. And thos sports do matter. You will
find many, many people who put MLB at the very end of this list and
to suggest that MLB is somehow more important than any of these
sports, especially the Olympics, is inaccurate to say the least.
> Something similar is true of Robinson's integration of MLB. There
> had been African Americans in Organized Baseball before Robinson,
> and other professional and college leagues were integrated before
> baseball was. And Robinson's impact was possible only because of
> historical factors like WWII and the death of Judge Landis that
> were beyond his control. Nonetheless, Robinson is the one who
> gets the credit today because he was the one who got the attention
> back then. Baseball was the sport that mattered, and Robinson
> (correctly) got credit for integrating it.
No, we believe that Robinson gets the credit, primarily because MLB
was more adroit in their handling of the press. And it was easier
for MLB to handle the press because, after all, they weren't the
first.
We don't take anything away from Robinson. But he was not the first
and he certainly wasn't the only one to go through what he went
through. We are unaware, for instance, of any incident where he was
physically beaten. Other pioneers were.
But most especially we question the so-called "wisdom" and "courage"
of statfan favourite, Branch Rickey. By bringing Robinson to
baseball, he was only doing something that had already been done in
every other sport and every other sporting league across the
country.
cordially, as always,
rm
--
Even Nelson Lu has no clue!
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015132 ] |
Wed, 10 May 2006 12:12 |
|
Chris Cathcart <cathcacr [at] gmail.com> trolled:
> Realto Margarino, troll, wrote:
> > We just learned that the NFL broke the color barrier with 4
> > players, 2 in Cleveland and 2 in LA, in 1946, a year before
> > Robinson.
> > We don't know about you, but learning this kind of takes a bit
> > of the sheen off Robinson's accomplishment.
> > IOW, he wasn't the first.
> Your willingness to shit on a great man is duly noted.
Perhaps you can tell us how much Baby Bonds' testicles have shrunk
since he started doing steroids? Do you tell yourself that Bonds is
a "great man" while your head is bobbing up and down?
cordially, as always,
rm
--
Even Nelson Lu has no clue!
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015135 ] |
Wed, 10 May 2006 14:13 |
|
"Chris Cathcart" <cathcacr [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1147221629.993709.109360 [at] i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Realto Margarino, troll, wrote:
>
>> We just learned that the NFL broke the color barrier with 4 players,
>> 2 in Cleveland and 2 in LA, in 1946, a year before Robinson.
>>
>> We don't know about you, but learning this kind of takes a bit of
>> the sheen off Robinson's accomplishment.
>>
>> IOW, he wasn't the first.
>
> Your willingness to shit on a great man is duly noted.
--
And so is your willingness to continue feeding the troll. There's plenty of
room in my killfile for you, too.
--
ivan
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015139 ] |
Wed, 10 May 2006 15:27 |
|
"Roger Moore" <raj [at] alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote...
> Not really. Robinson first played in Organized Baseball in 1946 with the
> IL Montreal Royals. AFAIK, the NFL was openly copying baseball when it
> chose to desegregate and probably would not have done so- or not have
> done so as promptly- had baseball not led the way.
August 28, 1945 - Dodgers sign Jackie Robinson
March 21, 1946 - Rams sign Kenny Washington
May 7, 1946 - Rams sign Woody Strode
Washington and Strode had been popular stars for UCLA, so the Rams -- newly
arrived in LA -- signed them in part for publicity. Neither was actually
used much that first year. Strode had a total of four receptions, and
Washington had 23 rushing attempts.
August 6, 1946 - Browns sign Bill Willis
August 9, 1946 - Browns sign Marion Motley
Both Motley and Willis were major contributors in 1946 and both are in the
PFHOF today. But the Browns were not in the NFL at the time. A team in the
AAFC had less to lose by signing black players.
--
Bob Roman
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015140 ] |
Wed, 10 May 2006 15:40 |
|
Ivan Weiss <ivan.weiss [at] centurytel.net> trolled:
> And so is your willingness to continue feeding the troll. There's
> plenty of room in my killfile for you, too.
Hi Ivan!
cordially, as always,
rm
--
Even Nelson Lu has no clue!
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015141 ] |
Wed, 10 May 2006 16:00 |
|
Bob Roman <robertjroman [at] hotmail.com> trolled:
> August 28, 1945 - Dodgers sign Jackie Robinson
> March 21, 1946 - Rams sign Kenny Washington
> May 7, 1946 - Rams sign Woody Strode
And yet the Dodgers chose not to play him. Why is that? Did they
think that this 28 year old needed more seasoning? They just didn't
have the balls to put him on the big team.
> Washington and Strode had been popular stars for UCLA, so the Rams
> -- newly arrived in LA -- signed them in part for publicity.
They signed a black man for publicity? You wouldn't think a team
would persue that kind of publicity.
> Neither was actually used much that first year. Strode had a
> total of four receptions, and Washington had 23 rushing attempts.
That's totally irrelevant. That goes to Strode's ability as a
player and doesn't mean anything to this discussion.
> August 6, 1946 - Browns sign Bill Willis
> August 9, 1946 - Browns sign Marion Motley
> Both Motley and Willis were major contributors in 1946 and both
> are in the PFHOF today. But the Browns were not in the NFL at the
> time. A team in the AAFC had less to lose by signing black
> players.
But why wouldn't they sign them for "publicity" like the Rams did?
In any case, the AAFC was a legitimate "big league" team and that
league outdrew the NFL while it was alive.
Oh, and BTW: the Browns had the most of any AAFC team to lose by
signing blacks because they were the dominant team of the league.
They didn't need to sign blacks to be successful.
Despite your research, it is clear that:
Boxing
Track
Olympics
Basketball
Soccer
American Football
Canadian Football
US College Football
all fielded black players on their MLB teams before Rickey put
Robinson on the Dodger team.
cordially, as always,
rm
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015147 ] |
Wed, 10 May 2006 21:06 |
|
On May 7 2006 12:52 PM, Realto Margarino wrote:
> We just learned that the NFL broke the color barrier with 4 players,
> 2 in Cleveland and 2 in LA, in 1946, a year before Robinson.
>
> We don't know about you, but learning this kind of takes a bit of
> the sheen off Robinson's accomplishment.
>
> IOW, he wasn't the first.
>
> cordially, as always,
>
> rm
> --
> Even Nelson Lu has no clue!
Oh please. Pro Football wasn't even a big deal then. Baseball was huge.
____________________________________________________________ ____________
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015148 ] |
Wed, 10 May 2006 21:02 |
|
Realto Margarino <rm [at] youasked.org> trolled:
> They signed a black man for publicity? You wouldn't think a team
> would persue that kind of publicity.
pursue
Oh, well.
cordially, as always,
rm
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015150 ] |
Wed, 10 May 2006 21:17 |
|
SpencerDogg <a7de3d3 [at] webnntp.invalid> trolled:
> Oh please. Pro Football wasn't even a big deal then. Baseball was huge.
The Olympics were huge. Baseball was hardly "huge" And only in the
US. And College Football was much, much larger than MLB.
US football
CAN football
College football
Track
Soccer
Olympics
Basketball
were all integrated before MLB. The Boston Red Sox weren't
integrated until 1959.
cordially, as always,
rm
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015152 ] |
Wed, 10 May 2006 21:40 |
|
I don't ever recall anyone from baseball claiming baseball was the
first sport to integrate. It is well known Jackie played football and
basketball at UCLA.
Jackie is revered for his courage, courage to swallow his pride when
almost every other ballplayer, including his teammates were against.
Courage to not relatiate when spiked, thrown at and spit upon.
You are a moron. Shut your hole.
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015163 ] |
Wed, 10 May 2006 23:52 |
|
Zamdrist <zamdrist [at] gmail.com> trolled:
> I don't ever recall anyone from baseball claiming baseball was the
> first sport to integrate. It is well known Jackie played football
> and basketball at UCLA.
> Jackie is revered for his courage, courage to swallow his pride
> when almost every other ballplayer, including his teammates were
> against. Courage to not relatiate when spiked, thrown at and spit
> upon.
Sure we're a moron. But to our knowledge Robinson was never
seriously assaulted. Others were. In any case, we aren't
complaining about the credit given to Robinson. We are complaining
about the credit given to Branch Rickey, who, while he was the first
in baseball to integrate, he wasn't doing anything deeply profound
because virtually every other major sport in the world had already
integrated.
> You are a moron. Shut your hole.
Is this supposed to enhance your argument? Or is it meant to keep
us up at night?
G'nite Gladys,
cordially, as always,
rm
--
Even Nelson Lu has no clue!
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015165 ] |
Thu, 11 May 2006 01:18 |
|
Realto Margarino wrote:
> Zamdrist <zamdrist [at] gmail.com> trolled:
>
> > I don't ever recall anyone from baseball claiming baseball was the
> > first sport to integrate. It is well known Jackie played football
> > and basketball at UCLA.
>
> > Jackie is revered for his courage, courage to swallow his pride
> > when almost every other ballplayer, including his teammates were
> > against. Courage to not relatiate when spiked, thrown at and spit
> > upon.
>
> Sure we're a moron. But to our knowledge Robinson was never
> seriously assaulted. Others were. In any case, we aren't
> complaining about the credit given to Robinson. We are complaining
> about the credit given to Branch Rickey, who, while he was the first
> in baseball to integrate, he wasn't doing anything deeply profound
> because virtually every other major sport in the world had already
> integrated.
What Branch Rickey did was probably calculated and self-serving. It
would not be out of character for the pious cheapskate to do a good
thing for a selfish reason. The entry of Jackie Robinson into baseball
was still a major event, much more important to the U.S. sports fan
than anything that had happened in the other sports. That they may have
been deluded in thinking MLB more important than others sports is
certainly likely, but they did seem to think so.
"Seriously assaulted" is a term that could be defined to include the
really vicious spiking he got while playing First but it also could be
defined to exclued it. Pitchers were not wary of throwing at Robinson
but they threw at many players for lots of different reasons. It is
certainly true that football players get many more chances to injure
their opponents than baseball players.
Will in New Haven
--
>
> > You are a moron. Shut your hole.
>
> Is this supposed to enhance your argument? Or is it meant to keep
> us up at night?
>
> G'nite Gladys,
>
> cordially, as always,
>
> rm
> --
> Even Nelson Lu has no clue!
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015168 ] |
Thu, 11 May 2006 01:38 |
|
Will in New Haven <bill.reich [at] taylorandfrancis.com> trolled:
> What Branch Rickey did was probably calculated and self-serving. It
> would not be out of character for the pious cheapskate to do a good
> thing for a selfish reason. The entry of Jackie Robinson into baseball
> was still a major event, much more important to the U.S. sports fan
> than anything that had happened in the other sports.
And how do you know this? Because it is written in books about
baseball?
> That they may have been deluded in thinking MLB more important
> than others sports is certainly likely, but they did seem to think
> so.
There have always been people who followed and participated in the
other sports. And when Jackie Robinson started playing for the
Dodgers, all they had to say was, "It's about time."
> "Seriously assaulted" is a term that could be defined to include
> the really vicious spiking he got while playing First but it also
> could be defined to exclued it. Pitchers were not wary of throwing
> at Robinson but they threw at many players for lots of different
> reasons. It is certainly true that football players get many more
> chances to injure their opponents than baseball players.
If you want to know about a serious assault search the internet for
Johnny Bright. Bright was one of our childhood heroes in the CFL
and we didn't then know anything about what he faced in the US. He
came to the pros a few years after Robinson.
Here is the link:http://www.coachwyatt.com/johnnybright.html
And here is a quote from that site:
"Johnny Bright was a great American athlete. He set professional
football records that still stand. Yet today few Americans even know
his name, much less his story.
"If only as an act of contrition, it is important that they do.
"Nearly 50 years after the incident that changed his life forever, it
is almost as though America made a conscious effort to forget it
ever happened, and in the process forgot about him, too."
There are lots of blacks that paid a bigger price than Robinson and
yet it is Robinson alone who is given credit for doing less than a
lot of others. If anyone should get the lion's share of the credit
for being the "first black" it should be Jesse Owens.
And Branch Rickey was just following the crowd.
cordially, as always,
rm
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015172 ] |
Thu, 11 May 2006 04:54 |
|
"Realto Margarino" <rm [at] youasked.org> wrote in message
news:6Jo7g.135$aq5.21897 [at] news20.bellglobal.com...
> We just learned that the NFL broke the color barrier with 4 players,
> 2 in Cleveland and 2 in LA, in 1946, a year before Robinson.
>
> We don't know about you, but learning this kind of takes a bit of
> the sheen off Robinson's accomplishment.
===
Those teams were not even the NFL then. They were the All-America
Conference. That is one reason it did not seem a big deal.
--
Jim
*******************************************
Baseball is the Only Game Where
the Defense Controls the Ball
*******************************************
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| Re: Breaking the Color barrier [message #1015183 ] |
Thu, 11 May 2006 13:11 |
|
Jim McKinley <bigmck [at] sbcglobal.net> trolled:
> "Realto Margarino" <rm [at] youasked.org> wrote in message
> news:6Jo7g.135$aq5.21897 [at] news20.bellglobal.com...
> > We just learned that the NFL broke the color barrier with 4 players,
> > 2 in Cleveland and 2 in LA, in 1946, a year before Robinson.
> >
> > We don't know about you, but learning this kind of takes a bit of
> > the sheen off Robinson's accomplishment.
> ===
> Those teams were not even the NFL then. They were the All-America
> Conference. That is one reason it did not seem a big deal.
No, the RAMS were in the NFL. The Browns were in the AAFC.
Furthermore, the AAFC was not a minor league. It was a major league
that was a competitor to the NFL.
What this means is that the colour barrier was broken in _two_ major
football leagues, before it was broken in MLB.
cordially, as always,
rm
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