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Sports » rec.sport.boxing » Byrd-Klitschko (spoiler) plus Cintron-Estrada
| Byrd-Klitschko (spoiler) plus Cintron-Estrada [message #993937] |
Sun, 23 April 2006 03:26 |
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Cintron-Estrada: I was pretty close in my pick on the Cintron fight. I
picked 8, he stopped Estrada in 10. that helps, as I was just 3 points
out of first in VanPred. Perhaps for a few days I was first. It
doesn't matter, since scores aren't tallied until Sunday, and I picked
WK by UD. It was an exciting match, and a pretty good comeback win for
Cintron. He still isn't showing much defense, and that will limit how
far he goes in his career, but his offense is special enough that he's
going to make a lot of good fights along the way.
Byrd-WK:
Chris Byrd stayed true to his word, and he took the fight right to Wlad.
And received a savage beating for it. The first round was dreadfully
slow. Wlad used the jab and grab, and an occasional left hook off the
jab. Byrd got in a few body shots, but even when his feet were set,
they had no pop. Byrd's been a counterpuncher until the last couple of
years, and you could see in the Williamson fight, and again in this one,
that he's not even getting his full power because he's not good at
closing the gap and having his feet in position to punch, the way that
Zab Judah or Roy Jones is. Byrd was complaining to the American ref
(Wayne Kelly) about Wlad's holding, and Wlad did start getting warned
for it. The HBO crew said that it wasn't really bad holding, on the
level of a Ruiz fight, and they're right there, but it is also still a
foul. Wlad changed the way that he was holding, and would just push
forward and lean on Byrd to smother punches, or push off a little. It
was worse for Byrd than a regular clinch, since he either got leaned on,
or was right back out in Wlad's range.
By the third round, Byrd was clearly frustrated, and Wlad was in a very
comfortable groove. WK went to the 1-2 instead of hooking off the jab,
and Byrd just does not move his head much coming in. He's used to
bobbing around flat footed, and his new offensive style both saps the
little power he has and takes him out of his defensive comfort zone.
Byrd would start to move in, get stopped by a jab, and that little
moment in the no-man's land of WK's punching range was often enough for
Wlad to uncork a stiff right. Byrd stuck to the game plan, which he
admitted was stupid after the fight, and kept coming forward. The
fourth round was more of the same, though Wlad started to mix in the
lead right more, timing it just as Byrd was starting to move in. I was
impressed with the timing.
Byrd started to take more risks in the 5th. WK was pawing a little with
the jab, measuring, and Byrd started to parry it with his right, to slip
in. But it ended up that Byrd was in no man's land with his right hand
out in the air. The second or third time that Byrd tried to do that, he
left his hand out too long, WK snapped a hard jab under Byrd's right,
which spun his head, and Byrd walked into a short straight right hand
that cracked him on the right cheek. Byrd didn't see the punch, and
asked his corner what it was after the round. Byrd went down, hard,
with over two minutes left in the round. Byrd looked pretty bad when he
got up, and I could see the fight being stopped right there. It was
allowed to continue, and Byrd took a high holy beating for two minutes.
He almost went down on a couple of occasions, and saved himself once by
grabbing a rope. WK certainly learned from the Brewster fight. While
he did flurry wild right after the knockdown for about 30 seconds, he
then stepped back and took a breath, and was more measured in his
attacks. The beating was so bad, I scored the round 10-7.
Wlad was told to remain calm in the corner, and he did that in the 6th.
Byrd had clearly got his legs back by the end of the previous round, so
Wlad went back to his calm, measured 1-2, even taking bits of the round
off, but clearly dominating. Byrd still tried to parry now and then,
and WK didn't take advantage of it. Byrd also played a lot of defense
to clear his head.
Around the middle of the 7th, Byrd tried that stupid parry move again,
WK did the same thing, a snappy 1-2 that rocked Byrd. Byrd tried to
turn and duck, and Wlad pumped a double lead right hand. the first
caught Byrd on the side of the head, the second dragged across Byrd's
face, opening up a bad cut. Byrd was still hunched over, and WK threw a
left hook-right cross combo. The hook didn't land well, but it put
byrd's head in perfect position for the wide right cross, which sat him
down. Byrd popped up on what looked like fresher legs than he had in
the 5th, but there was blood streaming down his face, and the ref called
it. I have no problem with the stoppage, though it costs me points and
perhaps the lead in VanPred. Yeah, it looked like the cut was what
caused the ref to stop it, and you'd like the doc to look at a cut
before a stoppage, but then you'd be penalizing WK by giving Byrd time
to rest after being dropped. Byrd had taken a lot of hard shots in a
thoroughly one-sided beating (at least after the slow, nearly even first
round).
Congrats to WK, for pulling his shit together after being in a dark
place, for getting Manny in the corner which has improved him in mid
career. While JC Gomez was a sacrifical lamb, I could see improvements
in Wlad's timing that have continued. Peter was clumsy and ugly, and
the old Wlad might have become frustrated or wore down from all the
wresting. I liked Wlad's footwork in the Peter fight, that minimized a
lot of Peter's wrestling.
Wlad had flashes of his old robot clumsiness in the fight, and he's got
to stop using the jab as a measuring stick. He can't do that against
Rahman, or his chin will get checked. But I thought that he showed a
higher degree of fluidity that I've seen. He always had fluid offense,
but it used to look like he would plod, place his feet, then uncork
punches. I really liked the way he's combining an improved sense of
timing and smooth footwork. He took a nice half step back to ensure
punching room on many of his hard shots, and stepped into his well timed
right hand leads. I don't know how well he'd do with lateral movement,
but that's not much of a problem in the heavyweights.
The fight I most want to see from WK is Rahman. I'm pretty confident
that the Rock will pound Maskaev, who's really slid since he KO'd
Rahman. Rahman is nearly Wlad's size, and I bet they have equal reach.
If the good Rahman shows up and sticks to the jab, then it could be a
hell of a fight. Since Rahman is free of Don King, it's a match that
can be made. I imagine that Valuev and Liachovich are going to be tied
up in rematches with the King fighters for the forseeable future.
Byrd, well, it's time to give James Toney a call. Toney's not going to
get another crack at Rahman anytime soon, so they can milk some money
out of a match in Detroit.
Shamus
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| Re: Byrd-Klitschko (spoiler) plus Cintron-Estrada [message #993950 ] |
Sun, 23 April 2006 05:07 |
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thanks, nice post (and a better review of the fight than you'll get on
almost any of the sports sites ).
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| Re: Byrd-Klitschko (spoiler) plus Cintron-Estrada [message #994027 ] |
Sun, 23 April 2006 22:06 |
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"s. young" <machismo [at] drizzle.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1eb4779ed739f09f98987f [at] news.drizzle.com...
> Cintron-Estrada: I was pretty close in my pick on the Cintron fight. I
> picked 8, he stopped Estrada in 10. that helps, as I was just 3 points
> out of first in VanPred. Perhaps for a few days I was first. It
> doesn't matter, since scores aren't tallied until Sunday, and I picked
> WK by UD. It was an exciting match, and a pretty good comeback win for
> Cintron. He still isn't showing much defense, and that will limit how
> far he goes in his career, but his offense is special enough that he's
> going to make a lot of good fights along the way.
Some will think I am getting carried away, but Cintron looks like a new man
under Steward. He fought a great fight against the very durable and ultra
aggressive Estrada. Man, what a fight. Cintron can beat Margarito, in
their fight Cintron had everything against him, and on top of that, he was
not a very good boxer then either. I like the way he moved his hands and
used the jab to set up his power against Estrada. He did show some
defensive lapses, but that was more inexperience to me rather than a
liability that he cant correct. He looks to be too much for Judah or the
rest of the welterweights and I think would give Mayweather and Margarito
very tough fights.
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| Re: Byrd-Klitschko (spoiler) plus Cintron-Estrada [message #994029 ] |
Sun, 23 April 2006 23:01 |
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"sneeke" <dwilliams68 [at] nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:S6R2g.2176$n13.1167 [at] tornado.southeast.rr.com...
>
> Some will think I am getting carried away, but Cintron looks like a new
> man under Steward.
Yes, some will and I am included.
>He fought a great fight against the very durable and ultra aggressive
>Estrada.
Estrada fought on heart. He is tough and, when it comes to his being a
championship caliber fighter, not much more. He swung wildly, often hitting
Cintron. Cintron did not react well to Estrada's punches and when Cintron
meets a fighter who can both box and punch, he'll be in deep shit again, as
he was with Margarito.
> Man, what a fight. Cintron can beat Margarito, in their fight Cintron
> had everything against him,
Mostly, he had Margarito against him. Cintron was selling and you were
buying.
> and on top of that, he was not a very good boxer then either. I like the
> way he moved his hands and used the jab to set up his power against
> Estrada. He did show some defensive lapses,
That's to put it mildly. Estrada is there to be outboxed, but Cintron
really is not much of a pure boxer. When he can't get you out, he'll have
some problems, IMO.
> but that was more inexperience to me rather than a liability that he cant
> correct.
Cintron has had more professional fights and is 26 years old. IMO, he will
never be a real good boxer. He also does not have a top notch chin. I
think he'll always have probems with boxers who can punch a bit, especially
those who have a good chin. Estrada is not a big puncher and he had Cintron
is a bit of trouble.
>He looks to be too much for Judah or the rest of the welterweights and I
>think would give Mayweather and Margarito very tough fights.
I'd pick a motivated (i.e. top condition) over Cintron. That said, I'd
never bet on Judah over anybody who comes to win, because I never know how
much Zab will want it. I'd take Hatton over Cintron.
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| Re: Byrd-Klitschko (spoiler) plus Cintron-Estrada [message #994040 ] |
Mon, 24 April 2006 01:52 |
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I generally agree with TSC on the issue of Cintron. I disagree with
Sneeke in that I didn't feel like I saw a new man, so much as a return
to Cintron's pre-Margarito form, flaws and all. I split the difference
between TSC and Sneeke in the Margarito fight. The best Cintron did not
show up. The excuses that he listed on Wednesday probably had something
to do with it. They don't explain it all, and to say so is a diservice
to Margarito, who is a pretty damn good fighter. Cintron at his best
might have lasted a few more rounds, but he was not in the same class as
Margarito.
I disagree with TSC regarding Cintron's experience. He started boxing
late and was still improving fight to fight up until he hit Margarito.
I think that there is still room for improvement there, and Manny
Steward is probably a good person to teach him how to fight taller and
minimize his defensive lapses. We have seen other very offensive
fighters learn a bit of defense in mid career. Manny Pacquiao has
improved a lot under Freddie Roach. Clearly, Cintron is not as gifted
of an athlete as Pacquiao, and I don't see him improving quite as much,
but I do think that there will be improvements. Ultimately, I think
that the improvements will not be enough to erase the chin question, and
that's why I think that he'll ultimately be known as a contender that
gave a lot of exciting fights.
The question is if he will get the chance to make those improvements
before he's thrown into a top level fight. I think that the Margarito
fight was too soon; Estrada is the sort of guy that Cintron should have
fought before Margarito. He was perhaps moved a little too fast by his
team, but there was also a lack of depth at 147, with people chasing
oscar and the money to 154 and people staying at 140 for all the big
fights there.
Now he's the IBF #2. It looks like Floyd is going to throw the belt
away (after paying $150K for it) rather than submit to their silly
demand for an immediate rematch. If that happens, it looks like it will
be Zab vs. Cintron for the vacant IBF belt. Cintron needs 3 or so
opponents that will be easy for him to hit so that he can adapt to
whatever Steward is going to teach him. Jumping right in against Zab is
a recipe for failure. You do never know which Zab will show up, and
Judah has a shakey enough chin that there could be an upset, but I see
Judah avoiding getting hit long enough to hit Cintron with something
from which he can't recover. Cintron's people would do better trying to
match him with the winner of Gatti-Baldomir. That's still a steep step
up and both of those guys have power, but they at least are going to be
much more susceptible to Cintron's power. Hatton would beat Cintron,
but it would be fun while it lasted. Collazo would be a good fight for
Cintron, or Oktay Urkal, get him some rounds against an awkward guy.
Really, what Cintron needs is to step back and fight some mid level
guys, top 15 to low top 10.
The depth at 147 still really isn't there, which is one of the reasons
that Cintron has jumped right back up to being close to a title shot.
Estrada-Cintron, while exciting, was not what you'd expect out of a #2
eliminator. Finding mid-level guys for him to learn with at Welter is
going to be tough, and may be seen as ducking tougher competition, but
if Cintron ever hopes to achieve the next level, he needs to rebuild for
a little while. And to be clear, the next level for him is not
champion, it's serious contender, who won't be blown out by a champ.
I think it might be best for him to go ahead and move to 154. I think
his punch will travel up, and while he might be getting hit harder, he
also has the excuse to take a year and work on his game with lower level
guys, without being right back in title contention. And there seems
like a long list of guys at 154 that would be good learning
opportunities and tests: Joshua Clottey, Kofi Jantuah, Rodney Jones,
Marco Rubio, JC Candello, Verno Phillips, Travis Simms, Sechew Powell,
Jose Rivera, Javier Castillejo, Ike Quartey. That's the sort of depth
that, had Cintron had to work through on his way to a title shot at 147,
would have either developed him into a serious contender or eliminated
him.
Shamus
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| Re: Byrd-Klitschko (spoiler) plus Cintron-Estrada [message #994067 ] |
Mon, 24 April 2006 08:03 |
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"s. young" <machismo [at] drizzle.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1eb5b306a96421fd989880 [at] news.drizzle.com...
>
> I disagree with TSC regarding Cintron's experience. He started boxing
> late and was still improving fight to fight up until he hit Margarito.
> I think that there is still room for improvement there, and Manny
> Steward is probably a good person to teach him how to fight taller and
> minimize his defensive lapses. We have seen other very offensive
> fighters learn a bit of defense in mid career. Manny Pacquiao has
> improved a lot under Freddie Roach. Clearly, Cintron is not as gifted
> of an athlete as Pacquiao, and I don't see him improving quite as much,
> but I do think that there will be improvements. Ultimately, I think
> that the improvements will not be enough to erase the chin question, and
> that's why I think that he'll ultimately be known as a contender that
> gave a lot of exciting fights.
It's not that he won't get incrementally better, but I don't think he'll get
to where boxing will be second nature to him as it is for someone such as
Shane Mosley or Oscar de la Hoya, guys who started fighting at a young age.
IMO, Cintron doesn't react to adversity as anything like the quintessential
fighter and I don't believe he ever will.
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| Re: Byrd-Klitschko (spoiler) plus Cintron-Estrada [message #994098 ] |
Mon, 24 April 2006 20:36 |
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> It's not that he won't get incrementally better, but I don't think he'll
> get
> to where boxing will be second nature to him as it is for someone such as
> Shane Mosley or Oscar de la Hoya, guys who started fighting at a young
> age. IMO, Cintron doesn't react to adversity as anything like the
> quintessential fighter and I don't believe he ever will.
I am not saying Cintron will be an all time great, but maybe it was little
things I noticed that showed improvement in my eyes. The way he worked the
jab, his hands stayed busy. He did have some adversity with the cut and
then Estrada hurting him badly.
Cintron has come a long way for a guy who just started boxing 7 years ago.
Had Manny been in his corner, he probably wouldnt have had as much trouble
with Estrada as he did. You really need to see some tapes of this guy when
he was fighting on NBC, boy was he raw. This guy is every bit as gifted an
athelete as Pacquiao. His build is incredible for a welterweight, he is
built like Hearns almost with that broad back and shoulders. I think Manny
looks for guys with more natural ability than boxing ability. He always
said Hearns was not the most talented fighter at the Kronk. He felt others
were more gifted, such as McCallum, McClellan, and Moorer.
Lastly, I just do not subscribe to fighters having bad chins. It anybody
gets hit properly, they are going down. Some guys can not take a good
whack, Michael Bennett comes to mind. I never thought Floyd would KO Zab,
Zab has only really been hurt by punches he didnt expect or didnt see, and
he has always gotten up, albeit shakey sometimes. Please remember that
Corley almost had Cotto and PBF out of there but he never once hurt Judah. I
think Floyd hits harder than Baldomir or Spinks and he never had Judah in
serious trouble. Manny says he has no problem with Wlad's chin, neither do
I , I just dont think he can take what he dishes out, like a Corrales or
Castillo, in a give and take fight with a puncher, I would always bet
against Wlad. Everytime Margarito hit Cintron, he got up, the kid was just
a mental wreck in that fight. I like Cintron's upside. He has the body and
athletism that could lead to a long career in multiple divisions.
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