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Sports » rec.sport.billiard » Why I am a "B" player
| Why I am a "B" player [message #984328] |
Fri, 28 April 2006 11:39 |
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I was playing in a local weekly "B" tournament. No "A" players are
allowed. A guy I had never seen before is sitting at the bar and
watching the action. After playing a good set, I sat down next to him
to wait until my next match. He began talking and naming a few of the
local "A" players and wondered why they didn't play in this tournament.
I stated it was for B players only and that the players he named
weren't allowed.
Like Becky, he began to suck up to me and tell me how I am an "A"
player and shouldn't be allowed to play. :-) At that time I told him
that A players were 2-3 levels above me and that he only saw me shoot
one match and I was "on" in that match. We were also watching the match
for the winners bracket. Both players shot great and never missed a
shot or safety. They were playing great also. He commented that they
are A players also. I told him they are very good players but not of
the A caliber.
After that match, I had to play the loser. I lost when I missed a shot,
but ended up 3rd. I sat down to finish my drink. He continued to say we
were A players. I told him to be an A player, you have to have
consistency, which I don't. While watching the final match, both
players folded under the pressure and missed a few shots that "A"
players wouldn't have missed. I pointed this out to him and then he
agreed. Another player commented that the difference between "A" and
"B" is consistancy. What do you think?
So, I am going to practice more in hopes of becoming an "A" player by
being more consistant. With consistancy, I may be able to beat Becky if
a match ever takes place, and I get a spot. :-)
Hank <~~~my story and I'm sticking to it!
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984336 ] |
Fri, 28 April 2006 15:57 |
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ninebal310 [at] aol.com wrote:
> Another player commented that the difference between "A" and
> "B" is consistancy. What do you think?
Well, one can be consistently BAD, y'know! :-)
An A player is one who rarely loses. That is not necessarily the same
as one who rarely misses.
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984339 ] |
Fri, 28 April 2006 17:09 |
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On 28 Apr 2006 02:39:25 -0700, ninebal310 [at] aol.com wrote:
>
> [snip]
> Another player commented that the difference between "A" and
>"B" is consistancy. What do you think?
>
This is true to a point I'd say... but I think it also has to do with
planning and cue ball control.
>
>So, I am going to practice more in hopes of becoming an "A" player by
>being more consistant. With consistancy, I may be able to beat Becky if
>a match ever takes place, and I get a spot. :-)
>
>Hank <~~~my story and I'm sticking to it!
>
Would a "B" player ever run 100 balls at straight pool?
I know a very good player that I consider a "B" player, but I don't
know that he can run 100 balls in straight pool.
Pretty much only "A" players can run 100 balls in straight pool I
think.
I think there is a very fine gap between "B-" and "C+" players though.
I think of myself in "C" category, but I beat "B" players every once
in a while or hold my own in long sessions.
The "A" players seem to be in a class of their own.
- Samiel
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984340 ] |
Fri, 28 April 2006 18:02 |
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Samiel wrote:
> Would a "B" player ever run 100 balls at straight pool?
>
> I know a very good player that I consider a "B" player, but I don't
> know that he can run 100 balls in straight pool.
>
> Pretty much only "A" players can run 100 balls in straight pool I
> think.
I think anyone who runs 100 balls is a Master Player.
Glenn
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984342 ] |
Fri, 28 April 2006 18:47 |
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Glenn, to most of these guys the master designation does not exist. A
masters player would be an A or even A- to most of them. Around here I'm
rated an A+ in league, which I figure makes me B+ everywhere else. But
your right. I don't know too many masters players that could run 100
balls. Not around here anyway. Maybe 6 or 7.
Ed
HopsNBarley wrote:
>>Pretty much only "A" players can run 100 balls in straight pool I
>>think.
>
>
> I think anyone who runs 100 balls is a Master Player.
>
> Glenn
>
>
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984343 ] |
Fri, 28 April 2006 18:52 |
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Yes I think consistency is one of the biggest differences. That
consistency boils down to precision, I think. A players are more precise
in everything. They don't get sloppy and make the dumb mental mistakes
the rest of us make, like edge hooking themself on the 8 ball. They plan
and execute with much more precision and that is a very hard wall for us
B players to breakthrough. Some nights I can do it and others...well. It
probably has something to do with a precise consistent repeatable stroke
as well.
Ed
ninebal310 [at] aol.com wrote:
> So, I am going to practice more in hopes of becoming an "A" player by
> being more consistant. With consistancy, I may be able to beat Becky if
> a match ever takes place, and I get a spot. :-)
>
> Hank <~~~my story and I'm sticking to it!
>
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984344 ] |
Fri, 28 April 2006 19:30 |
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Qute frankly, A players take care of the details 99% of the time, they
focus better while at the same time having a table awareness, and they
spell consistent correctly ... just one of those details ....lol
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984346 ] |
Fri, 28 April 2006 19:33 |
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Only because they are precise and detailed enough to use a good spell
checker!
ed
snapshot9scott [at] cox.net wrote:
> Qute frankly, A players take care of the details 99% of the time, they
> focus better while at the same time having a table awareness, and they
> spell consistent correctly ... just one of those details ....lol
>
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984347 ] |
Fri, 28 April 2006 19:36 |
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Snapshot writes:
Qute frankly, A players take care of the details 99% of the time, they
focus better while at the same time having a table awareness, and they
spell consistent correctly ... just one of those details ....lol
Ouch! That hurt. :-)
Hank <~~~unedumacated
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984352 ] |
Fri, 28 April 2006 20:52 |
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ninebal310 [at] aol.com wrote:
> After that match, I had to play the loser. I lost when I missed a shot,
> but ended up 3rd. I sat down to finish my drink. He continued to say we
> were A players. I told him to be an A player, you have to have
> consistency, which I don't. While watching the final match, both
> players folded under the pressure and missed a few shots that "A"
> players wouldn't have missed. I pointed this out to him and then he
> agreed. Another player commented that the difference between "A" and
> "B" is consistancy. What do you think?
I think:
1. you got hustled by a couple of A players who whupped ass up to the
final, missed shots to make y'all feel better. Then they split 1st/2nd
prize over a beer and headed for the next "B" tournament.
- OR -
B. The three of you put on a good show and you had to miss shots to
throw that nosey guy off the scent. Then y'all split 1/2/3 over a beer
and headed for your next "B" tournament. Good thinking coming up with
the "consistency" dodge.
- OR -
Third: You were all playing above yourselves as is common after catching
a few early games and getting warmed up by the later matches. By the
end of the tourney pretty much everyone is playing well because they are
warmed up, they have their head into the competition, they are feeling
confident and they smell moola.
I'd pick 1. You could have been an A player getting hustled by [at] 55holes
and that is not completely your fault. Not really. B. is dishonest and
we'd NEVER think that about you and the third option is just dull old
reality and you're just a mortal "B" player that found his A game for a
while.
Congrats for finishing in the dough. You can honestly say, "I won!
<some money>" Pays for a beer and that ain't all bad.
Stephen N. ---> third, it's the new first...
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984353 ] |
Fri, 28 April 2006 20:57 |
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I think this is a good thread Hank. In order to move up a level you
should really know what that next level entails. I think it would be
useful to discuss what makes a B player as opposed to a C player as
well. If Scott is right and spelling ability is the key then the Hamster
should be a B player for sure and I guess I would be a D. :-)
Ed "Spelling Challenged" McCune
ninebal310 [at] aol.com wrote:
> So, I am going to practice more in hopes of becoming an "A" player by
> being more consistant. With consistancy, I may be able to beat Becky if
> a match ever takes place, and I get a spot. :-)
>
> Hank <~~~my story and I'm sticking to it!
>
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984354 ] |
Fri, 28 April 2006 20:58 |
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Yes, Samiel, from what I saw of your play at the Derby City there is no
doubt that you could beat many B players on any given day. That is why I
have come to the conclusion that you and I should play some even one pocket
on your home court. By playing on your home court it should give you an
advantage and make the game quite competitive. Some of my former Louisiana
patriots are over your way playing lots of pool and they are keeping an eye
on your up and coming game with regular reports to me. If you come to New
Orleans, you can get 9/8 on your first break. ;-)
Warm Regards,
JoeyA
"Samiel" <samiel [at] samiel.com> wrote in message
news:pnb4521fh3brf98f4u1elgnqn9pu7dce2q [at] 4ax.com...
> On 28 Apr 2006 02:39:25 -0700, ninebal310 [at] aol.com wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>> Another player commented that the difference between "A" and
>>"B" is consistancy. What do you think?
>>
> This is true to a point I'd say... but I think it also has to do with
> planning and cue ball control.
>
>>
>>So, I am going to practice more in hopes of becoming an "A" player by
>>being more consistant. With consistancy, I may be able to beat Becky if
>>a match ever takes place, and I get a spot. :-)
>>
>>Hank <~~~my story and I'm sticking to it!
>>
> Would a "B" player ever run 100 balls at straight pool?
>
> I know a very good player that I consider a "B" player, but I don't
> know that he can run 100 balls in straight pool.
>
> Pretty much only "A" players can run 100 balls in straight pool I
> think.
>
> I think there is a very fine gap between "B-" and "C+" players though.
> I think of myself in "C" category, but I beat "B" players every once
> in a while or hold my own in long sessions.
>
> The "A" players seem to be in a class of their own.
>
> - Samiel
>
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984355 ] |
Fri, 28 April 2006 21:01 |
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I beg to differ with you Scott, most pool players regardless of their skill
level would consistently mispell consistant and even the word quite. ;-)
Warm Regards,
JoeyA
<snapshot9scott [at] cox.net> wrote in message
news:1146245443.888637.102230 [at] i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Qute frankly, A players take care of the details 99% of the time, they
> focus better while at the same time having a table awareness, and they
> spell consistent correctly ... just one of those details ....lol
>
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984357 ] |
Fri, 28 April 2006 21:26 |
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On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 13:58:27 -0500, "JoeyA" <joey [at] katrina.com> wrote:
>Yes, Samiel, from what I saw of your play at the Derby City there is no
>doubt that you could beat many B players on any given day. That is why I
>have come to the conclusion that you and I should play some even one pocket
>on your home court. By playing on your home court it should give you an
>advantage and make the game quite competitive. Some of my former Louisiana
>patriots are over your way playing lots of pool and they are keeping an eye
>on your up and coming game with regular reports to me. If you come to New
>Orleans, you can get 9/8 on your first break. ;-)
>Warm Regards,
>JoeyA
>
Uh oh, JoeyA has spies giving Mike Page info. on me! :p
I still fancy myself the C player with occassional moments of B-dom.
I don't run racks often at all... and I think B players run them
pretty often though not most of the time. I think that A players run
them most of the time.
JoeyA (the A stands for A player, right? :p) vs. Samiel
I think the one-pocket spot would have to be 10-6 or 11-5 to be fair!
:p
Actually, my one-pocket game has come up a good bit, but I'm entirely
too offensive a player since most of the guys I play against are C
players and I know that I can leave them long shots and they don't run
out on me.
So when are you headed back this way Joey? We could do an RSB ladder
match! :p
- Samiel
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984362 ] |
Fri, 28 April 2006 23:56 |
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JoeyA writes to snapshot:
I beg to differ with you Scott, most pool players regardless of their
skill
level would consistently mispell consistant and even the word quite.
;-)
Warm Regards,
JoeyA
Thanks for watching my back. roflmao
Hank or is it Hunk?
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984364 ] |
Sat, 29 April 2006 00:30 |
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On Apr 28 2006 1:57 PM, Ed McCune wrote:
> In order to move up a level you
> should really know what that next level entails.
I think this is WAY over-simplified though Ed. I don't think there is a
consistent "formula" for players to reach the A level, if their were, we
would all be doing it. Or maybe we are doing it, it just takes so much
friggin time.
I guess it's possible there is a formula, yet we each understand the
stating of that formula differently and only after reaching that higher
plane of existence do we realize what it truly took to get there.
Aboo <- Still a C player.
------
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984365 ] |
Sat, 29 April 2006 01:27 |
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Steven N. writes:
I'd pick 1. You could have been an A player getting hustled by
[at] 55holes
and that is not completely your fault. Not really. B. is dishonest
and
we'd NEVER think that about you and the third option is just dull old
reality and you're just a mortal "B" player that found his A game for a
while.
Stephen N. ---> third, it's the new first...
It isn't #1 or 2. I know these guys and have played them before many
times. Both are good honest pool shooters if there is such a thing. :-)
I am just a mortal B player with growth spurts to A and fallbacks to C
at any given time.
Hank <~~~not big, not small, just average
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984372 ] |
Sat, 29 April 2006 15:08 |
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In article <arq4525nln03gd1lk6oheg88hgm52lakqf [at] 4ax.com>, Samiel
<samiel [at] samiel.com> wrote:
[...]
> Uh oh, JoeyA has spies giving Mike Page info. on me! :p
>
Noted... But Joey's credibility is...aaah ... less than stellar when
he's applying the cajun seasoning.....
For example I think I would need a Smorgasspot from Joey. 20-2 comes
to mind. But Joey would probably say all kinds of nice things about me
and argue that I could keep up with him at 12-3. But I wouldn't be
buying any of that Jumbaloney...
Joey you're not going to the BCA Vegas 8-ball thing are you? I recall
you went one year.
mike page
fargo
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984376 ] |
Sat, 29 April 2006 19:59 |
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I agree with most of what you posted. Once you achieve a new level it is
easy to look back and see what it took. I just think you need to have
some idea of where you are going first to achieve that quicker.
This is one reason I advocate looking for a mentor (whether they know it
or not) that is only a level or two higher than you and only coaching a
level or two below. Few people (some can of course.) can remember what a
level more than 2 below them was like and therefor tend to overcoach,
giving out advanced info that is not only not understood but not able to
be acted on even if understood. How many times has someone even on this
NG said something that you didn't totally get or agree with but a couple
of years later you finally got. Happens to me all the time.
The kids I help are always telling me I give out too much information.
They say they just aren't ready for much of what I tell them and to cut
back a bit. It is hard for me to do that.
Every level I have played at I have always glommed onto a guy just a
level or two higher than me and milked him dry of info. Even then, there
is always some stuff that really doesn't help me for a bit until I
actually improve my skills a bit. Knowledge and improved skills go hand
in hand.
Ed
Aboo wrote:
..
>
> I guess it's possible there is a formula, yet we each understand the
> stating of that formula differently and only after reaching that higher
> plane of existence do we realize what it truly took to get there.
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984406 ] |
Sun, 30 April 2006 16:43 |
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The difference between an A and B player?
The A player:
Has nailed down his stroke.
Has more offensive shots in his repertoire;
Has more positional plays in his repertoire;
Has more defensive plays in his repertoire;
All the above makes him look more consistent, but in reality, he just
knows more, so he misses less and gets out of line less. Hand-in-hand
with this is the fact that the better player is more confident simply
because he knows more shots, position plays, and defensive. IWO, it's
easier to look and be confident when you know what to do and exactly how
to do it.
The B player has an inconsistent stroke, knows less, and is often
guessing how a shot is going to turn out. When they guess right a lot,
along with a lot of shots coming up that they do know, they're "on." On
a night when more shots they don't know come up and they guess wrong,
they're "having a bad night" or are "out of stroke."
And, since they have an inconsistent stroke, they are "out of stroke"
far more often than they could ever stand to know :-)
Lou Figueroa
ninebal310 [at] aol.com wrote:
> I was playing in a local weekly "B" tournament. No "A" players are
> allowed. A guy I had never seen before is sitting at the bar and
> watching the action. After playing a good set, I sat down next to him
> to wait until my next match. He began talking and naming a few of the
> local "A" players and wondered why they didn't play in this tournament.
> I stated it was for B players only and that the players he named
> weren't allowed.
>
> Like Becky, he began to suck up to me and tell me how I am an "A"
> player and shouldn't be allowed to play. :-) At that time I told him
> that A players were 2-3 levels above me and that he only saw me shoot
> one match and I was "on" in that match. We were also watching the match
> for the winners bracket. Both players shot great and never missed a
> shot or safety. They were playing great also. He commented that they
> are A players also. I told him they are very good players but not of
> the A caliber.
>
> After that match, I had to play the loser. I lost when I missed a shot,
> but ended up 3rd. I sat down to finish my drink. He continued to say we
> were A players. I told him to be an A player, you have to have
> consistency, which I don't. While watching the final match, both
> players folded under the pressure and missed a few shots that "A"
> players wouldn't have missed. I pointed this out to him and then he
> agreed. Another player commented that the difference between "A" and
> "B" is consistancy. What do you think?
>
> So, I am going to practice more in hopes of becoming an "A" player by
> being more consistant. With consistancy, I may be able to beat Becky if
> a match ever takes place, and I get a spot. :-)
>
> Hank <~~~my story and I'm sticking to it!
>
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984408 ] |
Sun, 30 April 2006 18:29 |
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In article <p245g.10964$Fs1.10523 [at] bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
lfigueroa <lfigueroa [at] att.net> wrote:
> The difference between an A and B player?
>
> The A player:
>
> Has nailed down his stroke.
>
> Has more offensive shots in his repertoire;
>
> Has more positional plays in his repertoire;
>
> Has more defensive plays in his repertoire;
>
> All the above makes him look more consistent, but in reality, he just
> knows more, so he misses less and gets out of line less. Hand-in-hand
> with this is the fact that the better player is more confident simply
> because he knows more shots, position plays, and defensive. IWO, it's
> easier to look and be confident when you know what to do and exactly how
> to do it.
>
> The B player has an inconsistent stroke, knows less, and is often
> guessing how a shot is going to turn out. When they guess right a lot,
> along with a lot of shots coming up that they do know, they're "on." On
> a night when more shots they don't know come up and they guess wrong,
> they're "having a bad night" or are "out of stroke."
>
> And, since they have an inconsistent stroke, they are "out of stroke"
> far more often than they could ever stand to know :-)
>
> Lou Figueroa
>
It's hard to believe this guy spent only one evening shooting pool with
me.. He knows me sooooo well ;-)
[...]
mike page
fargo
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984425 ] |
Mon, 01 May 2006 06:30 |
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The difference between an A and B player?
The A player:
Has nailed down his stroke.
Has more offensive shots in his repertoire;
Has more positional plays in his repertoire;
Has more defensive plays in his repertoire;
All the above makes him look more consistent, but in reality, he just
knows more, so he misses less and gets out of line less. Hand-in-hand
with this is the fact that the better player is more confident simply
because he knows more shots, position plays, and defensive. IWO, it's
easier to look and be confident when you know what to do and exactly
how
to do it.
So what happens when an A player is having an off night, is he
forgetting that he's got more knowledge and a better stroke?
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984430 ] |
Mon, 01 May 2006 15:27 |
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So, Mike, how are you hitting them nowadays?
Lou Figueroa
always happy
to play straightman
Michael Page wrote:
> In article <p245g.10964$Fs1.10523 [at] bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> lfigueroa <lfigueroa [at] att.net> wrote:
>
>> The difference between an A and B player?
>>
>> The A player:
>>
>> Has nailed down his stroke.
>>
>> Has more offensive shots in his repertoire;
>>
>> Has more positional plays in his repertoire;
>>
>> Has more defensive plays in his repertoire;
>>
>> All the above makes him look more consistent, but in reality, he just
>> knows more, so he misses less and gets out of line less. Hand-in-hand
>> with this is the fact that the better player is more confident simply
>> because he knows more shots, position plays, and defensive. IWO, it's
>> easier to look and be confident when you know what to do and exactly how
>> to do it.
>>
>> The B player has an inconsistent stroke, knows less, and is often
>> guessing how a shot is going to turn out. When they guess right a lot,
>> along with a lot of shots coming up that they do know, they're "on." On
>> a night when more shots they don't know come up and they guess wrong,
>> they're "having a bad night" or are "out of stroke."
>>
>> And, since they have an inconsistent stroke, they are "out of stroke"
>> far more often than they could ever stand to know :-)
>>
>> Lou Figueroa
>>
>
> It's hard to believe this guy spent only one evening shooting pool with
> me.. He knows me sooooo well ;-)
>
> [...]
>
> mike page
> fargo
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984432 ] |
Mon, 01 May 2006 15:28 |
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Being an A player is only being an A player.
I think we can agree that there are many more levels above A status.
Even among the pros, there are many different strata.
Lou Figueroa
Alex Kanapilly wrote:
> The difference between an A and B player?
>
> The A player:
>
>
> Has nailed down his stroke.
>
>
> Has more offensive shots in his repertoire;
>
>
> Has more positional plays in his repertoire;
>
>
> Has more defensive plays in his repertoire;
>
>
> All the above makes him look more consistent, but in reality, he just
> knows more, so he misses less and gets out of line less. Hand-in-hand
> with this is the fact that the better player is more confident simply
> because he knows more shots, position plays, and defensive. IWO, it's
> easier to look and be confident when you know what to do and exactly
> how
> to do it.
>
>
> So what happens when an A player is having an off night, is he
> forgetting that he's got more knowledge and a better stroke?
>
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984503 ] |
Tue, 02 May 2006 17:54 |
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lfigueroa wrote:
> Being an A player is only being an A player.
>
> I think we can agree that there are many more levels above A status.
> Even among the pros, there are many different strata.
>
> Lou Figueroa
Yes we can agree on that. What made me comment was that sometimes when
I'm playing bad I do "guess" where the cue ball is going. When I'm
playing good (I would say from my average game to my best game) I
"know" where the cue ball is going a very high percentage of the time.
So I guess I feel like an A player that forgets sometimes, maybe I'm
just stupid. I rationalize it all by telling myself that I don't get
enough table time. The "guess" part struck a nerve, I hate to admit
that I'm doing that at times. There are times when my game drops to C
level for sure, what's going on then??
It could be my stroke too, I played on a 12' snooker table for several
hours this past saturday and boy o boy will that show you things about
your stroke. I mean I had to totally concentrate on keeping my stroke
straight and smooth to make anything.
OK, so I'm probably a B player afterall.
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984510 ] |
Tue, 02 May 2006 19:28 |
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I know what you mean about guessing and Lou may have nailed that on the
head. A C player can't guess cause he has not clue where the cue ball is
going. He knows where he wants it to go but not how to get it there. A B
player knows roughly how to get it there but is essentially guessing on
the spin and speed. An A player knows precisely how to get it there and
know it will get there. That about sums it up for me. I'm definitely a B
player with flashes of A and occasionally dumbing down to a C as well.
As Lou says, a lot of it is dependent upon the shots you get that night.
Good analysis Lou.
Ed "The Guesser" McCune
Alex Kanapilly wrote:
> Yes we can agree on that. What made me comment was that sometimes when
> I'm playing bad I do "guess" where the cue ball is going. When I'm
> playing good (I would say from my average game to my best game) I
> "know" where the cue ball is going a very high percentage of the time.
> So I guess I feel like an A player that forgets sometimes, maybe I'm
> just stupid. I rationalize it all by telling myself that I don't get
> enough table time. The "guess" part struck a nerve, I hate to admit
> that I'm doing that at times. There are times when my game drops to C
> level for sure, what's going on then??
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984515 ] |
Tue, 02 May 2006 20:17 |
|
Ed McCune wrote:
> I know what you mean about guessing and Lou may have nailed that on the
> head. A C player can't guess cause he has not clue where the cue ball is
> going. He knows where he wants it to go but not how to get it there. A B
> player knows roughly how to get it there but is essentially guessing on
> the spin and speed. An A player knows precisely how to get it there and
> know it will get there. That about sums it up for me. I'm definitely a B
> player with flashes of A and occasionally dumbing down to a C as well.
>
> As Lou says, a lot of it is dependent upon the shots you get that night.
> Good analysis Lou.
>
> Ed "The Geezer" McCune
Based on on your description I would probably rate my skill at a
c+ to a b- with flashes (all to brief) of an A . I can get around the
table on most days but sometimes it feels more like running an obstacle
course complete with devastating landmines that can completely ruin an
otherwise good night !
Tom - (hates landmines)
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984525 ] |
Wed, 03 May 2006 00:33 |
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Here's a key distinction:
Knowing where the cue ball is going versus knowing how the cue ball is
getting there.
What I'm finding is that, as I improve, I'm getting much better at
threading the cue ball through marrow passages, or just passing by an
object ball with pretty good reliability. I know how the spin and speed
is going to affect the shot, and the cue ball, and where the cue ball is
going to hit the rail and how it's going to react. Or even better, how
not to use a rail at all and float the cue ball in any direction. What
this also means is that I'm getting better at bumping balls, which is a
*huge* advantage.
And, I think dropping levels can be attributed to a lack of a
disciplined PSR. At least that's what I've found. I think it takes a
really, really long time, with lots of experimentation, to develop a
bullet proof PSR. What helped me a lot was trying to figure out what
exactly got me out of stroke. What I found was that really small things
change *everything*.
I always hated it when people expected me to always play at a certain
level. I couldn't do it. Often, I get matched up with guys that I knew
I was suppose to beat and ended up playing like the village idiot. For
the longest time, I might be playing great when practicing, then play
someone, sometimes not even for money, and all the gears would start
grinding. I think one of the hallmarks of a true A player, or maybe
double A, or maybe a triple A is that there is a certain consistency to
their level of play. I dunno, maybe true consistency is pro status.
In any case, IMO inconsistency is just part of being a B or C player --
your game can be all over the place. I think to truly be an A player
you've got to be relatively consistent.
Lou Figueroa
Alex Kanapilly wrote:
> lfigueroa wrote:
>> Being an A player is only being an A player.
>>
>> I think we can agree that there are many more levels above A status.
>> Even among the pros, there are many different strata.
>>
>> Lou Figueroa
>
> Yes we can agree on that. What made me comment was that sometimes when
> I'm playing bad I do "guess" where the cue ball is going. When I'm
> playing good (I would say from my average game to my best game) I
> "know" where the cue ball is going a very high percentage of the time.
> So I guess I feel like an A player that forgets sometimes, maybe I'm
> just stupid. I rationalize it all by telling myself that I don't get
> enough table time. The "guess" part struck a nerve, I hate to admit
> that I'm doing that at times. There are times when my game drops to C
> level for sure, what's going on then??
>
> It could be my stroke too, I played on a 12' snooker table for several
> hours this past saturday and boy o boy will that show you things about
> your stroke. I mean I had to totally concentrate on keeping my stroke
> straight and smooth to make anything.
>
> OK, so I'm probably a B player afterall.
>
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #984526 ] |
Wed, 03 May 2006 00:33 |
|
Tanks, Ed.
Lou Figueroa
Ed McCune wrote:
> I know what you mean about guessing and Lou may have nailed that on the
> head. A C player can't guess cause he has not clue where the cue ball is
> going. He knows where he wants it to go but not how to get it there. A B
> player knows roughly how to get it there but is essentially guessing on
> the spin and speed. An A player knows precisely how to get it there and
> know it will get there. That about sums it up for me. I'm definitely a B
> player with flashes of A and occasionally dumbing down to a C as well.
>
> As Lou says, a lot of it is dependent upon the shots you get that night.
> Good analysis Lou.
>
> Ed "The Guesser" McCune
>
> Alex Kanapilly wrote:
>
>> Yes we can agree on that. What made me comment was that sometimes when
>> I'm playing bad I do "guess" where the cue ball is going. When I'm
>> playing good (I would say from my average game to my best game) I
>> "know" where the cue ball is going a very high percentage of the time.
>> So I guess I feel like an A player that forgets sometimes, maybe I'm
>> just stupid. I rationalize it all by telling myself that I don't get
>> enough table time. The "guess" part struck a nerve, I hate to admit
>> that I'm doing that at times. There are times when my game drops to C
>> level for sure, what's going on then??
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #1003329 ] |
Wed, 03 May 2006 17:24 |
|
In article <J6R5g.19211$Fs1.18240 [at] bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
lfigueroa [at] att.net says...
> And, I think dropping levels can be attributed to a lack of a
> disciplined PSR. At least that's what I've found. I think it takes a
> really, really long time, with lots of experimentation, to develop a
> bullet proof PSR. What helped me a lot was trying to figure out what
> exactly got me out of stroke. What I found was that really small things
> change *everything*.
You always say this but you never tell us what to DO! Damnit. :-)
On a somewhat related note, I have done experimentation of sorts.
Several times I've discovered things. Other times I've "re-discovered"
things that I don't know how I forgot or lost.
Here is a frustrating thing that has happened more than a couple of
times. In the course of experimenting, I hit upon something that seems
to make a really big difference. It first of all just feels right. And
it works so good, I'm kicking myself for not having figured it out
sooner. But hey, at least I've got it now, right. The next day or
couple of days I focus on it and notice an improvement in my
consistency. But somehow, little by little it doesn't work as well as
before and then one day I'm shooting worse than I was before I started
doing this thing! My theory is that by focusing on the new thing, I
gradually get complacent about all the other stuff and therefore other
stuff becomes less automatic than it was when I first started doing the
new thing. ?
John Black
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #1003335 ] |
Wed, 03 May 2006 18:45 |
|
This has been mentioned before and I think the answer is 2 fold. First,
when you are discovering something new your mind is really focused on
your mechanics, on how you feel to be precise. That extra focus makes
you pay attention more and be less sloppy in your psr and your stroke
and aim. In short you play better because your paying attention.
Gradually you lose that and go back to more sloppy habits.
Secondly your stance and body posture drifts a bit if you don't have a
disciplined psr that gets your feet into a consistent position every
time. A while back I reported a slight change in feet position had
dramatically straightened out my stroke. But I didn't develop a
consistent way of setting my feet and after a while I started to feel
uncomfortable and my play dropped a bit. I found my right foot drifting
back too far and that was twisting my body a trifle. I'm combating that
by finding a pattern (almost a dance step) that gets my feet in the
correct position every time.
I've gone back to touching my cue to the cloth just in front of the
object ball. This measures the distance I need to be from the ball and
from there I do a little 2 step to set my feet. If you think the dance
thing is weird watch Archer play when he is on. He does this little
hunch thing, peers at the balls, then do-se-do's with a quick two step
up to his set position. He does this on every shot exactly the same way.
Ed
> Here is a frustrating thing that has happened more than a couple of
> times. In the course of experimenting, I hit upon something that seems
> to make a really big difference. It first of all just feels right. And
> it works so good, I'm kicking myself for not having figured it out
> sooner. But hey, at least I've got it now, right. The next day or
> couple of days I focus on it and notice an improvement in my
> consistency. But somehow, little by little it doesn't work as well as
> before and then one day I'm shooting worse than I was before I started
> doing this thing!
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #1003337 ] |
Wed, 03 May 2006 19:01 |
|
I have several levels(pool playing levels) of friends I have played with
in the past and progressed beyond. In looking back here is what I see.
Low C levels players. These guys can shoot balls down with great
accuracy but rarely play shape for more than just the next ball, if
that, and have no real clue about ball-ball and ball-rail reactions.
Always try to do impossible things with the cue ball.
High C players. Again, very accurate. Try to plan a couple of balls
ahead but still pretty shaky on how to move the cue ball around. One guy
I know has been playing for 30 years and still doesn't understand the
tangent line or how spin affects things.
Low B players. These friends can shoot and play shape. They read
patterns a bit and note and play for problem balls. They don't always
understand how to get the cue ball where they want and their ball speed
is usually poor. They have learned that massive draw won't solve all
problems but don't play follow real well. They spin the cue too much
because they don't often play for precise angles. In short they are
imprecise, very imprecise, in both their thinking and ball speed.
High B. (Me and a couple of teammates) Well what can I say. Ball speed
good and planning good but not great. Don't always know precisely the
angle the cue ball will come off a rail. Last night I needed to come off
at a precise angle to make shape and missed by 20 degrees. The problem
was, I couldn't determine the spin exactly. I had to guess.
Low A. (a couple of teammates) They make amazing(to me) breakouts and
precise shape because they know exactly what angle the cue ball will
come off a ball or a rail. They don't guess at this. They know.
Any higher than that I don't know as I have no people I play with
regularly that are higher.
Ed
lfigueroa wrote:
> Knowing where the cue ball is going versus knowing how the cue ball is
> getting there.
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #1003363 ] |
Thu, 04 May 2006 05:05 |
|
John Black <jblack [at] texas.net> wrote in news:MPG.1ec287393a7143ac989be3
[at] news.chi.sbcglobal.net:
> My theory is that by focusing on the new thing, I
> gradually get complacent about all the other stuff and therefore other
> stuff becomes less automatic than it was when I first started doing the
> new thing. ?
>
> John Black
My theory is that your stroke is like a mud sculpture. You have to keep
propping it up. When it sags here, you prop it up some there and pat it
in, you stand back and check out how sound it is and make an adjustment or
two.
The more time you can spend at propping it up, the better looking it's
going to be.
The more adept at propping it up you are, seeing where it sags and where
it's holding, is a big help in consistency because it gets you back in the
game sooner.
Of course, that's also my theory about Concentration, and the PSR, and the
planning...
-B
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #1003373 ] |
Thu, 04 May 2006 13:33 |
|
I haven't? Well, shucks, why didn't you say so?!
Well, ferinstance:
Changing where you hold your cue (I'm not talking about your final grip
position) can alter your final set up. IOW, how you hold the cue while
looking at a shot and at the starting point of your PSR affects
everything that follows.
How and where you establish contact between your bridge hand and cue
shaft changes how you get into shooting position.
I know we've talked about footwork: what you do with your feet as you
get into shooting position, or even earlier -- starting from the same
place behind the cue ball every shot -- changes everything. Standing
a little to the right or left can change things dramatically. Switching
from using a static starting position and then degenerating into just
walking into a shot from a previous one, sometimes from the right,
sometimes from the left, will give you some interesting results.
Tempo is biggie. If you feel a little pressure and start shooting
faster, you start leaving things out of your PSR, or at the very least
you don't give your body parts all the time they need to assume their
proper positions (who among us -- excluding Alex, of course :-) --
hasn't had a local star start watching you play and you speed up trying
to look nonchalant and start shooting everything into the rail?)
Conversely, shooting too slow can create excess or at least a changed
body motions and affect your final set up. Personally, I think this is
one of the biggest reasons people crump under pressure: In a tough
situation, people try to be more careful, shoot slower, and end up
unconsciously changing their set up just enough to affect their accuracy.
Now about rediscovering things, I think we've all done that. But what
I've found is that all too often you end up concentrating on the wrong
thing and that's why your "solution" one day stops working the next.
As an example, say you're playing great one day and you start thinking,
"What the hell am I doing differently today?" And then you notice that
your grip is shorter than usual and you think "Eureka, I've found it!"
The next day you use your magic short grip and all that ends up
happening is that your stroke is all cramped up. And you think, "What's
up with that? That worked great yesterday."
What you might not have figured is that your shorter grip was causing
you to carry your cue around the table at a more upright angle. This in
turn was causing you to establish contact with your bridge hand earlier
and more to the left than you otherwise might and unconsciously caused
you to start with a step forward with your left foot rather than perhaps
a first step forward with your right. So in reality, your short grip
"Eureka!" was the wrong thing to concentrate on. I've always thought
that the movie "Medicine Man" with Sean Connery was a beautiful
illustration of missing the "true cure," though it be right in front of you.
Personally, I've found that it's actually never just one thing. Rather
it's a combination of things, in the right sequence, and with the right
tempo, that breaks open the safe with all the goodies :-)
Lou Figueroa
John Black wrote:
> You always say this but you never tell us what to DO! Damnit. :-)
>
> On a somewhat related note, I have done experimentation of sorts.
> Several times I've discovered things. Other times I've "re-discovered"
> things that I don't know how I forgot or lost.
>
> Here is a frustrating thing that has happened more than a couple of
> times. In the course of experimenting, I hit upon something that seems
> to make a really big difference. It first of all just feels right. And
> it works so good, I'm kicking myself for not having figured it out
> sooner. But hey, at least I've got it now, right. The next day or
> couple of days I focus on it and notice an improvement in my
> consistency. But somehow, little by little it doesn't work as well as
> before and then one day I'm shooting worse than I was before I started
> doing this thing! My theory is that by focusing on the new thing, I
> gradually get complacent about all the other stuff and therefore other
> stuff becomes less automatic than it was when I first started doing the
> new thing. ?
>
> John Black
|
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #1003428 ] |
Fri, 05 May 2006 17:01 |
|
>Tempo is biggie. If you feel a little pressure and start shooting
>faster, you start leaving things out of your PSR, or at the very least
>you don't give your body parts all the time they need to assume their
>proper positions (who among us -- excluding Alex, of course :-) --
>hasn't had a local star start watching you play and you speed up trying
>to look nonchalant and start shooting everything into the rail?)
That's true, I can't remember ever doing that ;). But, I do remember
one time playing in the toughest weekly tournement we have around here
and beating the best player we have around here (Tony P, IMO is the
best around) and after the match he told me that my "rythem was
beautiful tonight". He even said that I could have spotted him the 8
ball in that match and it wouldn't have made a difference. It's an
alternate break race to 5 format on tight nine footers and I ran every
rack from my break, he ran two from his break and came up empty once
and I ran that out. One other game involved a safety battle that I
kicked safe back on him twice. I beat him 5-2. For weeks I replayed
that match and that tournament (it was the only time I ever won it) in
my head to try to understand what I did differently. I don't think I've
pinponted anything other than I had good rythem and tempo, I mean it
just "felt" perfect, not too fast and not too slow.
I don't have a systematic, objective aproach to trying to recreate the
feeling I get when I'm playing good and maybe that's what I need to
work on. The problem is I'm not a very systematic and objective kind of
guy.
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #1003444 ] |
Fri, 05 May 2006 22:09 |
|
I think finding, and then sticking to, your ideal rhythm is huge.
Lou Figueroa
knew it'd never
happened to Alex
Alex Kanapilly wrote:
>> Tempo is biggie. If you feel a little pressure and start shooting
>> faster, you start leaving things out of your PSR, or at the very least
>> you don't give your body parts all the time they need to assume their
>> proper positions (who among us -- excluding Alex, of course :-) --
>> hasn't had a local star start watching you play and you speed up trying
>> to look nonchalant and start shooting everything into the rail?)
>
> That's true, I can't remember ever doing that ;). But, I do remember
> one time playing in the toughest weekly tournement we have around here
> and beating the best player we have around here (Tony P, IMO is the
> best around) and after the match he told me that my "rythem was
> beautiful tonight". He even said that I could have spotted him the 8
> ball in that match and it wouldn't have made a difference. It's an
> alternate break race to 5 format on tight nine footers and I ran every
> rack from my break, he ran two from his break and came up empty once
> and I ran that out. One other game involved a safety battle that I
> kicked safe back on him twice. I beat him 5-2. For weeks I replayed
> that match and that tournament (it was the only time I ever won it) in
> my head to try to understand what I did differently. I don't think I've
> pinponted anything other than I had good rythem and tempo, I mean it
> just "felt" perfect, not too fast and not too slow.
>
> I don't have a systematic, objective aproach to trying to recreate the
> feeling I get when I'm playing good and maybe that's what I need to
> work on. The problem is I'm not a very systematic and objective kind of
> guy.
>
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #1003447 ] |
Fri, 05 May 2006 22:09 |
|
In article <r656g.2482$S6.252 [at] edtnps82>, mccune [at] telusplanetnospam.net
says...
> I've gone back to touching my cue to the cloth just in front of the
> object ball. This measures the distance I need to be from the ball and
> from there I do a little 2 step to set my feet. If you think the dance
> thing is weird watch Archer play when he is on. He does this little
> hunch thing, peers at the balls, then do-se-do's with a quick two step
> up to his set position. He does this on every shot exactly the same way.
Interesting. I have a match or two of his on DVD. I'll have to check
out his routine. Thanks.
John Black
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #1003449 ] |
Fri, 05 May 2006 22:09 |
|
In article <VDl6g.40965$eR6.15824 [at] bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
lfigueroa [at] att.net says...
> I haven't? Well, shucks, why didn't you say so?!
I was kidding because you have said all of the things below but I was
looking for, "start exactly here, put left foot here, put right foot
there, place back hand ..., etc". I understand why we have to
experiment and find the combination of things (not the one thing) that
works for us and that once we find it we must be very consistent with
it. Thanks again for all your help.
John Black
> Well, ferinstance:
>
> Changing where you hold your cue (I'm not talking about your final grip
> position) can alter your final set up. IOW, how you hold the cue while
> looking at a shot and at the starting point of your PSR affects
> everything that follows.
>
> How and where you establish contact between your bridge hand and cue
> shaft changes how you get into shooting position.
>
> I know we've talked about footwork: what you do with your feet as you
> get into shooting position, or even earlier -- starting from the same
> place behind the cue ball every shot -- changes everything. Standing
> a little to the right or left can change things dramatically. Switching
> from using a static starting position and then degenerating into just
> walking into a shot from a previous one, sometimes from the right,
> sometimes from the left, will give you some interesting results.
>
> Tempo is biggie. If you feel a little pressure and start shooting
> faster, you start leaving things out of your PSR, or at the very least
> you don't give your body parts all the time they need to assume their
> proper positions (who among us -- excluding Alex, of course :-) --
> hasn't had a local star start watching you play and you speed up trying
> to look nonchalant and start shooting everything into the rail?)
>
> Conversely, shooting too slow can create excess or at least a changed
> body motions and affect your final set up. Personally, I think this is
> one of the biggest reasons people crump under pressure: In a tough
> situation, people try to be more careful, shoot slower, and end up
> unconsciously changing their set up just enough to affect their accuracy.
>
> Now about rediscovering things, I think we've all done that. But what
> I've found is that all too often you end up concentrating on the wrong
> thing and that's why your "solution" one day stops working the next.
>
> As an example, say you're playing great one day and you start thinking,
> "What the hell am I doing differently today?" And then you notice that
> your grip is shorter than usual and you think "Eureka, I've found it!"
> The next day you use your magic short grip and all that ends up
> happening is that your stroke is all cramped up. And you think, "What's
> up with that? That worked great yesterday."
>
> What you might not have figured is that your shorter grip was causing
> you to carry your cue around the table at a more upright angle. This in
> turn was causing you to establish contact with your bridge hand earlier
> and more to the left than you otherwise might and unconsciously caused
> you to start with a step forward with your left foot rather than perhaps
> a first step forward with your right. So in reality, your short grip
> "Eureka!" was the wrong thing to concentrate on. I've always thought
> that the movie "Medicine Man" with Sean Connery was a beautiful
> illustration of missing the "true cure," though it be right in front of you.
>
> Personally, I've found that it's actually never just one thing. Rather
> it's a combination of things, in the right sequence, and with the right
> tempo, that breaks open the safe with all the goodies :-)
>
> Lou Figueroa
>
>
>
> John Black wrote:
> > You always say this but you never tell us what to DO! Damnit. :-)
> >
> > On a somewhat related note, I have done experimentation of sorts.
> > Several times I've discovered things. Other times I've "re-discovered"
> > things that I don't know how I forgot or lost.
> >
> > Here is a frustrating thing that has happened more than a couple of
> > times. In the course of experimenting, I hit upon something that seems
> > to make a really big difference. It first of all just feels right. And
> > it works so good, I'm kicking myself for not having figured it out
> > sooner. But hey, at least I've got it now, right. The next day or
> > couple of days I focus on it and notice an improvement in my
> > consistency. But somehow, little by little it doesn't work as well as
> > before and then one day I'm shooting worse than I was before I started
> > doing this thing! My theory is that by focusing on the new thing, I
> > gradually get complacent about all the other stuff and therefore other
> > stuff becomes less automatic than it was when I first started doing the
> > new thing. ?
> >
> > John Black
>
>
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| Re: Why I am a "B" player [message #1006663 ] |
Mon, 08 May 2006 13:35 |
|
I think some players have a more discernible PSR than others, like the
one initiated by Allen Hopkins switching hands to chalk before every
shot, or Cory Duel's cue cocking motion.
Lou Figueroa
John Black wrote:
> In article <r656g.2482$S6.252 [at] edtnps82>, mccune [at] telusplanetnospam.net
> says...
>> I've gone back to touching my cue to the cloth just in front of the
>> object ball. This measures the distance I need to be from the ball and
>> from there I do a little 2 step to set my feet. If you think the dance
>> thing is weird watch Archer play when he is on. He does this little
>> hunch thing, peers at the balls, then do-se-do's with a quick two step
>> up to his set position. He does this on every shot exactly the same way.
>
> Interesting. I have a match or two of his on DVD. I'll have to check
> out his routine. Thanks.
>
> John Black
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