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Sports » rec.sport.billiard » 3 rail kicks on AZB
| 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #983913] |
Sat, 22 April 2006 20:03 |
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For those that don't read it.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=30778
On my bar table I found that 2.5 diamonds works and the spot on the wall
must be 3-4 feet away. Can't do 6 ft as the room is too small. I think
you can adjust this system for any table and any size room though. Just
try a few shots to determine the spot distance and the diamond required.
Ed "Occasional AZ Lurker" McCune
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #983950 ] |
Sun, 23 April 2006 17:59 |
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Holy potted balls, batman..it works!
first shot left the ob in the jaws, 2nd shot made it!
back to the table to play with this little gem.
"Ed McCune" <mccune [at] telusplanetnospam.net> wrote in message
news:Edu2g.4248$2c3.3451 [at] edtnps89...
> For those that don't read it.
>
> http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=30778
>
> On my bar table I found that 2.5 diamonds works and the spot on the wall
> must be 3-4 feet away. Can't do 6 ft as the room is too small. I think you
> can adjust this system for any table and any size room though. Just try a
> few shots to determine the spot distance and the diamond required.
>
> Ed "Occasional AZ Lurker" McCune
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #983954 ] |
Sun, 23 April 2006 18:32 |
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Great balls of fire Ed, you finally got a TV and are watching batman.
That fits your mentality. Next try the Dukes of Hazzard, that's yo
speed too. The ice finally melted off your antenna?
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #983955 ] |
Sun, 23 April 2006 19:37 |
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"tdodge" <NOSPAMbluesman [at] stny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:PvN2g.1965$TT.890 [at] twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> Holy potted balls, batman..it works!
> first shot left the ob in the jaws, 2nd shot made it!
> back to the table to play with this little gem.
>
>
> "Ed McCune" <mccune [at] telusplanetnospam.net> wrote in message
> news:Edu2g.4248$2c3.3451 [at] edtnps89...
>> For those that don't read it.
>>
>> http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=30778
>>
>> On my bar table I found that 2.5 diamonds works and the spot on the wall
>> must be 3-4 feet away. Can't do 6 ft as the room is too small. I think
>> you can adjust this system for any table and any size room though. Just
>> try a few shots to determine the spot distance and the diamond required.
>>
>> Ed "Occasional AZ Lurker" McCune
>
I must be missing something...one of the AZ posters said that you can move
the cue ball anywhere, shoot at the established (6' - 9") spot and the kick
system will still work. Now if I used the diagram that was posted and move
the cue ball behind the head string, dead center in that quarter of the
table and shoot at the same pseudo spot it looks like I could most likely
scratch in the lower left corner and if I don't I'm sure not going to hit
the object ball. What am I doing wrong, what part don't I understand?
SS
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #983956 ] |
Sun, 23 April 2006 19:42 |
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"Superseal" <superseal [at] optonline.net> wrote in message
news:QXO2g.461$kK.342 [at] fe09.lga...
>>
>> "Ed McCune" <mccune [at] telusplanetnospam.net> wrote in message
>> news:Edu2g.4248$2c3.3451 [at] edtnps89...
>>> For those that don't read it.
>>>
>>> http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=30778
>>>
>>> On my bar table I found that 2.5 diamonds works and the spot on the wall
>>> must be 3-4 feet away. Can't do 6 ft as the room is too small. I think
>>> you can adjust this system for any table and any size room though. Just
>>> try a few shots to determine the spot distance and the diamond required.
>>>
>>> Ed "Occasional AZ Lurker" McCune
>>
>
> I must be missing something...one of the AZ posters said that you can move
> the cue ball anywhere, shoot at the established (6' - 9") spot and the
> kick system will still work. Now if I used the diagram that was posted
> and move the cue ball behind the head string, dead center in that quarter
> of the table and shoot at the same pseudo spot it looks like I could most
> likely scratch in the lower left corner and if I don't I'm sure not going
> to hit the object ball. What am I doing wrong, what part don't I
> understand?
>
> SS
What I really meant was (6' - 9') and scratch in the lower right corner not
left.
Sorry for the confusion.
SS
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #983959 ] |
Sun, 23 April 2006 21:26 |
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Ed McCune wrote:
> For those that don't read it.
>
> http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=30778
>
> On my bar table I found that 2.5 diamonds works and the spot on the wall
> must be 3-4 feet away. Can't do 6 ft as the room is too small. I think
> you can adjust this system for any table and any size room though. Just
> try a few shots to determine the spot distance and the diamond required.
Sorry Ed,
It might work for one specific shot but it is not a system. It is not
geometrically logical or consistent. I really didn't think it was from
the description but just for fun I took it to my handy CAD theory table.
A few obvious things were proven:
1. This one is bullshit.
2. If the cueball is not on the line from the opposite rail contact
point the shooting angle will change depending on how far away the spot
on the wall is.
3. If you move the CB and shoot for the same spot on the wall it will
not hit the same spot as the first shot.
4. Since the "spot on the wall" is made by drawing a line through an
arbitrarily chosen point, it has no geometric relationship to the OB.
5. In short, see point 1.
Stephen N. ---> I gotta bridge you might be interested in...
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #983960 ] |
Sun, 23 April 2006 21:54 |
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"Stephen N." <Steelystephen [at] coldmail.com> wrote in message
news:AxQ2g.8206$fL.3310 [at] edtnps90...
> Sorry Ed,
>
> It might work for one specific shot but it is not a system. It is not
> geometrically logical or consistent. I really didn't think it was from
> the description but just for fun I took it to my handy CAD theory table.
>
> A few obvious things were proven:
>
> 1. This one is bullshit.
>
> 2. If the cueball is not on the line from the opposite rail contact point
> the shooting angle will change depending on how far away the spot on the
> wall is.
>
> 3. If you move the CB and shoot for the same spot on the wall it will not
> hit the same spot as the first shot.
>
> 4. Since the "spot on the wall" is made by drawing a line through an
> arbitrarily chosen point, it has no geometric relationship to the OB.
>
> 5. In short, see point 1.
>
> Stephen N. ---> I gotta bridge you might be interested in...
Thanks for your analysis. It was obvious that this would work under certain
conditions, but without ever going to the pool table and just studying the
wei, I could see many, many conditions it would not. What threw me was that
so many people on AZ were convinced that this would always work and I
couldn't figure how it could. Another *no magic pill*.
SS
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #983961 ] |
Sun, 23 April 2006 22:56 |
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On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:59:43 GMT, "tdodge"
<NOSPAMbluesman [at] stny.rr.com> wrote:
>Holy potted balls, batman..it works!
>first shot left the ob in the jaws, 2nd shot made it!
>back to the table to play with this little gem.
>
>
>"Ed McCune" <mccune [at] telusplanetnospam.net> wrote in message
>news:Edu2g.4248$2c3.3451 [at] edtnps89...
>> For those that don't read it.
>>
>> http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=30778
>>
>> On my bar table I found that 2.5 diamonds works and the spot on the wall
>> must be 3-4 feet away. Can't do 6 ft as the room is too small. I think you
>> can adjust this system for any table and any size room though. Just try a
>> few shots to determine the spot distance and the diamond required.
>>
>> Ed "Occasional AZ Lurker" McCune
The perfect spot on the wall should be the same distance as the table
is wide, or long. In other words if your table is 3.5 the perfect spot
would be 3.5 feet away. Graph it on paper and you will see why. Of
course if your rails play long or short you may need to adjust.
I don't understand why he would draw a line through the second diamond
though. Seems he just picked it out of thin air.
>
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #983963 ] |
Mon, 24 April 2006 00:53 |
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Ed McCune <mccune [at] telusplanetnospam.net> wrote in news:Edu2g.4248$2c3.3451
[at] edtnps89:
> For those that don't read it.
>
> http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=30778
If this kind of thing interests you much: (and it does me)
In his book 'Upscale One-Pocket' Jack Koehler has a section on multi-rail
banks that would probably be worth having for many players, even if they
don't play 1p.
It's a nice compilation of 2, 3, and 4 rail, bank pathways that demonstrate
the limitations of "magic pills" likes the AZ post.
With practice, you develop an eye for these (pool is much a feel game as
scientific), and you might not need to extrapolate out to a point that you
may or may not be able to, visualize. Although that type of extrapolation,
I do, often, with one rail kicks and banks.
-Brian
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #983971 ] |
Mon, 24 April 2006 07:26 |
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me [at] home.net wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:59:43 GMT, "tdodge"
> <NOSPAMbluesman [at] stny.rr.com> wrote:
>>>On my bar table I found that 2.5 diamonds works and the spot on the wall
>>>must be 3-4 feet away. Can't do 6 ft as the room is too small. I think you
>>>can adjust this system for any table and any size room though. Just try a
>>>few shots to determine the spot distance and the diamond required.
>>>
>>>Ed "Occasional AZ Lurker" McCune
>
> The perfect spot on the wall should be the same distance as the table
> is wide, or long. In other words if your table is 3.5 the perfect spot
> would be 3.5 feet away. Graph it on paper and you will see why. Of
> course if your rails play long or short you may need to adjust.
>
> I don't understand why he would draw a line through the second diamond
> though. Seems he just picked it out of thin air.
He did! So did you with the spot 3.5 feet away. In fact, it's much
farther than that!
The point you'd aim at for a 3 bank kick can be derived in a similar way
as the 2 rail kick system I was mentioning in an earlier post (I think
it was "how to nail a kick shot"). It is about imagining reflections of
tables and where the reflected OB would be.
For a 3 rail kick shot it gets quite complex. The two rail system is
actually quite simple to use but the three rail system is harder to
imagine and requires an image of a third table. All of this is
theoretical, of course, and consideration must be given to rail correction.
I made a CAD drawing of how a two rail and three rail can be calculated
with reflections of tables and I believe it to be geometrically correct
that is, the angles are right. I can paste the picture into a WORD
document if someone can put it in a WEB accessible place but I cannot
attach it to a post. Let me know if anyone is interested and can host
this pic.
Having said all that, once you get the 2 rail system down it you should
be able to add one more rail to it, working backwards. I'm going to
work on a little more because this is the first time I have seen a
mathematical model of a 3 rail shot. I want to see if I can make it
simple enough to be used in practice.
Stephen Nishio
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #983981 ] |
Mon, 24 April 2006 15:37 |
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tdodge wrote:
> Holy potted balls, batman..it works!
> first shot left the ob in the jaws, 2nd shot made it!
> back to the table to play with this little gem.
>
>
> "Ed McCune" <mccune [at] telusplanetnospam.net> wrote in message
> news:Edu2g.4248$2c3.3451 [at] edtnps89...
>
>>For those that don't read it.
>>
>>http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=30778
>>
>>On my bar table I found that 2.5 diamonds works and the spot on the wall
>>must be 3-4 feet away. Can't do 6 ft as the room is too small. I think you
>>can adjust this system for any table and any size room though. Just try a
>>few shots to determine the spot distance and the diamond required.
>>
>>Ed "Occasional AZ Lurker" McCune
Sorry, that won't work for many shots, and it won't work consistently
for even a few on different tables - because rail cloth condition makes
such a difference without running english to minimize it.
The 'spot on the wall' system is well known, but works with different
geometry. The distance of the 'wall' from your table for a 3-rail kick
is 100 inches (the distance of the far rail on a '3rd' reflected table).
You can find the 3-rail 'spot on the wall' for a corner pocket shot
pretty easily by extending two lines and finding where they cross. Then
it's just a matter of adjusting to the actual target (if it's not the
corner pocket):
START(
%HD1D1%QR1N8%Rf8N5%Wb7D2%XC8Z8%[r0D9%\[5[5
)END
The 8 ball is jawed in the target corner pocket.
Line A goes from the other nearby corner pocket through a point on the
opposite long rail 2-2/3 diamonds from the opposite corner pocket (1-1/3
diamond from the far side pocket). This is the most common
'geometrically accurate' 3-rail kick track.
Line B goes from the nearby side pocket through the opposite corner
pocket. This is just another handy geometrically accurate 3-rail track
that's easy to find.
Where these two lines cross in space (one table length to the right and
two table widths up from the Wei table) is the reflected corner pocket
for a geometrically accurate 3-rail kick into the target corner pocket.
If you mark this 'spot in space' somehow (for instance, if there
happens to be a wall at that distance), you can use it for any 3-rail
kick into that corner *with running english*.
To use that 'spot in space' for kicks to other spots on the table,
simply imagine the whole table sitting out there in space and move your
target from the visualized corner pocket to the other visualized spot on
the table.
This works well for 3-rail kicks because the un-geometric angles the cue
ball takes off the rails tend to cancel each other out over 3 rails
*with running english*.
Pat Johnson
Chicago <-- just passin' through
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #983984 ] |
Mon, 24 April 2006 15:44 |
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Patrick Johnson wrote:
> tdodge wrote:
>
>> Holy potted balls, batman..it works!
>> first shot left the ob in the jaws, 2nd shot made it!
>> back to the table to play with this little gem.
>>
>>
>> "Ed McCune" <mccune [at] telusplanetnospam.net> wrote in message
>> news:Edu2g.4248$2c3.3451 [at] edtnps89...
>>
>>> For those that don't read it.
>>>
>>> http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=30778
>>>
>>> On my bar table I found that 2.5 diamonds works and the spot on the
>>> wall must be 3-4 feet away. Can't do 6 ft as the room is too small. I
>>> think you can adjust this system for any table and any size room
>>> though. Just try a few shots to determine the spot distance and the
>>> diamond required.
>>>
>>> Ed "Occasional AZ Lurker" McCune
>
>
> Sorry, that won't work for many shots, and it won't work consistently
> for even a few on different tables - because rail cloth condition makes
> such a difference without running english to minimize it.
>
> The 'spot on the wall' system is well known, but works with different
> geometry. The distance of the 'wall' from your table for a 3-rail kick
> is 100 inches (the distance of the far rail on a '3rd' reflected table).
That should say "The distance of the 'wall' from your table ... is TWO
TABLE WIDTHS..." (100 inches is only correct for a 9-foot table).
pj
chgo>
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #984005 ] |
Mon, 24 April 2006 21:39 |
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Patrick Johnson wrote:
> tdodge wrote:
>
>> Holy potted balls, batman..it works!
>> first shot left the ob in the jaws, 2nd shot made it!
>> back to the table to play with this little gem.
>>
>>
>> "Ed McCune" <mccune [at] telusplanetnospam.net> wrote in message
>> news:Edu2g.4248$2c3.3451 [at] edtnps89...
>>
>>> For those that don't read it.
>>>
>>> http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=30778
>>>
>>> On my bar table I found that 2.5 diamonds works and the spot on the
>>> wall must be 3-4 feet away. Can't do 6 ft as the room is too small. I
>>> think you can adjust this system for any table and any size room
>>> though. Just try a few shots to determine the spot distance and the
>>> diamond required.
>>>
>>> Ed "Occasional AZ Lurker" McCune
>
>
> Sorry, that won't work for many shots, and it won't work consistently
> for even a few on different tables - because rail cloth condition makes
> such a difference without running english to minimize it.
>
> The 'spot on the wall' system is well known, but works with different
> geometry. The distance of the 'wall' from your table for a 3-rail kick
> is 100 inches (the distance of the far rail on a '3rd' reflected table).
See my post on the 3rd Reflected table. The 3rd table is not only one
table over widthwise, it is also one table over length wise and inverted
once, lengthwise. I like the term 3rd reflected table.
While it is extremely difficult, if you can establish the point in space
where the OB is on the 3rd table, you can shoot at it from anywhere on
the real table and you will get a 3 rail path. It works the same way as
the 2nd Reflected table I was talking about for 2 rail shots but the 2nd
reflected table is actually pretty easy to figure out in practice. 3rd
reflected table, not so much.
Still, if it is a mathematical model for calculating the shot angle you
are looking for, it is one way of approaching it. It should be possible
to write an equation for calculating the shot angle by assigning
Cartesian cooridinates to the tables. Of course there'd only be seven
people on Earth who could work it out in their head during a game.
Stephen N.
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #984072 ] |
Tue, 25 April 2006 19:15 |
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It does work for a wide range of shots though. I tried it quite a bit
and what I found is first, the 2nd diamond thing is bull. It varies from
table to table. What you have to do is find Bob Jewetts magic spot on
the table.
http://www.professorqball.com/displaystory.php?RecordID=15
You use that point on the table instead of the 2nd diamond. It works
remarkably well. Not foolproof no, but good over a wide range of kicks.
Ed "Tester" McCune
Superseal wrote:
>>It might work for one specific shot but it is not a system. It is not
>>geometrically logical or consistent. I really didn't think it was from
>>the description but just for fun I took it to my handy CAD theory table.
>>
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #984077 ] |
Tue, 25 April 2006 19:21 |
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I showed this one to a friend and he liked it, limitations and all, for
the same reason I do. No damn numbering system to remember. It is simple
and once you learn the limitations, very effective over a certain range
of kicks. The bloody diamond system is useless to most of us who don't
care to A: memorize all the numberings systems and B: look like an idiot
at the table doing the math.
If there are any gems in that book you should post it for the book
challenged among us.
Ed
sorackem wrote:
> If this kind of thing interests you much: (and it does me)
>
> In his book 'Upscale One-Pocket' Jack Koehler has a section on multi-rail
> banks that would probably be worth having for many players, even if they
> don't play 1p.
>
> It's a nice compilation of 2, 3, and 4 rail, bank pathways that demonstrate
> the limitations of "magic pills" likes the AZ post.
>
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #984081 ] |
Tue, 25 April 2006 19:28 |
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He did specify running english in the original post I believe. I think
the point works out similarly to yours Patrick but this is a QDos (quick
and dirty) way of calculating the spot. As long as I know the
limitations and have time on the table before hand to find the magic
spot on the table, it works well enough. Doesn't have to be perfect.
Just good enough to get me out of a bind.
Ed
Patrick Johnson wrote:
> Sorry, that won't work for many shots, and it won't work consistently
> for even a few on different tables - because rail cloth condition makes
> such a difference without running english to minimize it.
>
> The 'spot on the wall' system is well known, but works with different
> geometry. The distance of the 'wall' from your table for a 3-rail kick
> is 100 inches (the distance of the far rail on a '3rd' reflected table).
>
>
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #984144 ] |
Wed, 26 April 2006 05:49 |
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Mere moments before death, Patrick Johnson hastily scrawled:
>
>Pat Johnson
>Chicago <-- just passin' through
....with running english, right?
Ed Chauvin IV
--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G [at] 11.
"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #984154 ] |
Wed, 26 April 2006 14:09 |
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This is a true story (insert flashback music): I was playing Efren
Reyes at the US Open 1pocket tournament up in Kalamazoo one year. As
you might expect, he kept tying me up so that several times I had to
kick to get safe.
Anywhos, one shot he leaves a ball in the jaws of his pocket, hides the
cue ball and I have no alternative but to go for the three rail kick.
So the cue ball is kind of in an odd spot near the rail just below the
side pocket and I'm not sure of the angle. Oh, did I mention a couple
hundred people are sweating the match? So now I'm thinking to myself,
"I have no clue how to hit this" and I really don't want to look like a
total boob and wiff the ball with a bad kick and then I remember the
spot on the wall system.
So I stand behind my pocket, figure the spot on the wall, go back to the
cue ball, aim at the spot on the wall, adjust for it to go long because
of the new cloth and balls, shoot at the spot on the wall, make the shot
clean as a whistle, the crowd bursts into applause, Efren smiles.
Sometimes the spot on the wall is your only friend :-)
Lou Figueroa
Ed McCune wrote:
> It does work for a wide range of shots though. I tried it quite a bit
> and what I found is first, the 2nd diamond thing is bull. It varies from
> table to table. What you have to do is find Bob Jewetts magic spot on
> the table.
> http://www.professorqball.com/displaystory.php?RecordID=15
>
> You use that point on the table instead of the 2nd diamond. It works
> remarkably well. Not foolproof no, but good over a wide range of kicks.
>
> Ed "Tester" McCune
>
>
> Superseal wrote:
>
>>> It might work for one specific shot but it is not a system. It is
>>> not geometrically logical or consistent. I really didn't think it
>>> was from the description but just for fun I took it to my handy CAD
>>> theory table.
>>>
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #984184 ] |
Wed, 26 April 2006 18:47 |
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Was the Lady in Purple watching? (Maybe she follows you around)
Ed2
lfigueroa wrote:
> This is a true story (insert flashback music): I was playing Efren
> Reyes at the US Open 1pocket tournament up in Kalamazoo one year. As
> you might expect, he kept tying me up so that several times I had to
> kick to get safe.
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #1003410 ] |
Fri, 05 May 2006 00:34 |
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Ed McCune wrote:
> I showed this one to a friend and he liked it, limitations and all, for
> the same reason I do. No damn numbering system to remember. It is simple
> and once you learn the limitations, very effective over a certain range
> of kicks. The bloody diamond system is useless to most of us who don't
> care to A: memorize all the numberings systems and B: look like an idiot
> at the table doing the math.
>
> If there are any gems in that book you should post it for the book
> challenged among us.
>
> Ed
>
> sorackem wrote:
>
>> If this kind of thing interests you much: (and it does me)
>> In his book 'Upscale One-Pocket' Jack Koehler has a section on
>> multi-rail banks that would probably be worth having for many players,
>> even if they don't play 1p.
>>
>> It's a nice compilation of 2, 3, and 4 rail, bank pathways that
>> demonstrate the limitations of "magic pills" likes the AZ post.
>>
Amazon currently has a PDP of part of that at:
http://www.azbilliards.com/jackkoehler/
Donald
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #1003412 ] |
Fri, 05 May 2006 01:12 |
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Donald Tees wrote:
> Amazon currently has a PDP of part of that at:
> http://www.azbilliards.com/jackkoehler/
>
> Donald
Interesting. The image table system is exactly what I was trying to
describe to Ed etc. when I was talking about mirror tables. I came to
this system myself by playing with tables in CAD software so it is
somewhat vindicating to see it in this article.
I just printed the page off and I hope to have time to look the various
ideas over in the next few days. Thanks for the pointer.
Stephen N.
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #1003415 ] |
Fri, 05 May 2006 01:18 |
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Stephen N. wrote:
> Donald Tees wrote:
>
>> Amazon currently has a PDP of part of that at:
>> http://www.azbilliards.com/jackkoehler/
>>
>> Donald
>
>
> Interesting. The image table system is exactly what I was trying to
> describe to Ed etc. when I was talking about mirror tables. I came to
> this system myself by playing with tables in CAD software so it is
> somewhat vindicating to see it in this article.
>
> I just printed the page off and I hope to have time to look the various
> ideas over in the next few days. Thanks for the pointer.
>
> Stephen N.
>
My mistake, though. Note it is at azbilliards, not Amazon.
Donald
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #1003417 ] |
Fri, 05 May 2006 01:56 |
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Donald Tees <donald_tees [at] sympatico.ca> wrote in news:Sjv6g.2004$VV2.139359
[at] news20.bellglobal.com:
> Amazon currently has a PDP of part of that at:
> http://www.azbilliards.com/jackkoehler/
>
> Donald
Thanks Donald.
That second diagram of the extended tables is what I was too lazy to look
for anywhere.
I don't really use a 'point out in space' somewhere, that represents my
target. I mean I do briefly, but I look out there imagining extended tables
and pick a point on the (real) rail that is in line with my object. Much
like a golf putt. That point/line will correlate well with the paths in
the One-Pocket book I mentioned.
-Brian
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #1003420 ] |
Fri, 05 May 2006 02:45 |
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sorackem wrote:
> Donald Tees <donald_tees [at] sympatico.ca> wrote in news:Sjv6g.2004$VV2.139359
> [at] news20.bellglobal.com:
>
>
>>Amazon currently has a PDP of part of that at:
>>http://www.azbilliards.com/jackkoehler/
>>
>>Donald
>
>
> Thanks Donald.
>
> That second diagram of the extended tables is what I was too lazy to look
> for anywhere.
I volunteered my drawing of it when we were discussing it last but there
were no takers...
>
> I don't really use a 'point out in space' somewhere, that represents my
> target. I mean I do briefly, but I look out there imagining extended tables
> and pick a point on the (real) rail that is in line with my object.
I think that is the way to do it. For me, imagining the point in space
is just to get my rail spot. Then, of course I make the shot every time.
Stephen N.
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #1003422 ] |
Fri, 05 May 2006 03:08 |
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Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #1003433 ] |
Fri, 05 May 2006 19:36 |
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i find it amazing that you guys can visualize an imaginary table or 2 or
three to find that imaginary point out in space. The problem I've had
with mirror systems is just that. Imagining a table with enough accuracy
to find the correct point. What? Do you guys carry GPS's in your pockets
or something? Is it just practice?
Ed
Stephen N. wrote:
> sorackem wrote:
>
>> Donald Tees <donald_tees [at] sympatico.ca> wrote in
>> news:Sjv6g.2004$VV2.139359
>> [at] news20.bellglobal.com:
>>
>>
>>> Amazon currently has a PDP of part of that at:
>>> http://www.azbilliards.com/jackkoehler/
>>>
>>> Donald
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks Donald.
>> That second diagram of the extended tables is what I was too lazy to
>> look for anywhere.
>
>
> I volunteered my drawing of it when we were discussing it last but there
> were no takers...
>
>>
>> I don't really use a 'point out in space' somewhere, that represents
>> my target. I mean I do briefly, but I look out there imagining
>> extended tables and pick a point on the (real) rail that is in line
>> with my object.
>
>
> I think that is the way to do it. For me, imagining the point in space
> is just to get my rail spot. Then, of course I make the shot every time.
>
> Stephen N.
>
>
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #1003436 ] |
Fri, 05 May 2006 20:27 |
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Ed McCune wrote:
> i find it amazing that you guys can visualize an imaginary table or 2 or
> three to find that imaginary point out in space. The problem I've had
> with mirror systems is just that. Imagining a table with enough accuracy
> to find the correct point. What? Do you guys carry GPS's in your pockets
> or something? Is it just practice?
>
>
> Ed
I got out a measuring tape, and marked the spots. Then practiced using
them. Of course, that requires playing a specific table where there is room.
Donald
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #1003439 ] |
Fri, 05 May 2006 21:35 |
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Ed McCune wrote:
> i find it amazing that you guys can visualize an imaginary table or 2 or
> three to find that imaginary point out in space. The problem I've had
> with mirror systems is just that. Imagining a table with enough accuracy
> to find the correct point. What? Do you guys carry GPS's in your pockets
> or something? Is it just practice?
Geez Ed, you just aren't believing in me. I said that imagining the
table, or seeing it drawn out, tells you why they system works but you
don't have to imagine the table when you are using the system. I've
said that one and two rail banks can easily be calculated but three
rails require a third reflected table that is hard to imagine.
For one and two rails though, it is pretty simple:
One rail, one mirror. You already know how to do this, but in case
anyone does not: You find the imaginary reflection of the ball by
measuring from the OB to the rail and then the same distance straight
out from the rail. That is your point in space. A straight line from
there to the CB gives you your rail spot.
Two rails, two mirrors. This one is almost as simple.
In this case, you measure from the OB to the point in the corner where
the two rails, or your imaginary mirrors meet. Then you continue on
that line the same distance out from that intersection. That gives you
your point in space. A straight line from there to the CB gives you
your rail spot.
For most of these shots, when they are close to the rail or close to the
corner, you can calculate your rail spot very quickly, usually by
measuring by eye. As always, you must compensate for the rails.
It should be noted that with both of these examples, you could
theoretically shoot at the reflected ball from anywhere on the table and
hit the OB.
Stephen N.--->Imagine that...
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #1003440 ] |
Fri, 05 May 2006 21:48 |
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Hmmmmm. I'd have to put the spot in the dirt about 4 feet down in the
middle of my lawn, then tunnel through the basement to that point.
OK. Can do. Wife won't like it but WTF. That's her problem. Pool comes
first.:-)
Ed
Donald Tees wrote:
> I got out a measuring tape, and marked the spots. Then practiced using
> them. Of course, that requires playing a specific table where there is room.
>
> Donald
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #1003441 ] |
Fri, 05 May 2006 21:52 |
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Oh, I believe you Stephen. I just have trouble holding a spot in space
imagining 1 table much less 2 or 3. That's why I like simpler systems
like the one posted on AZ. I admit I haven't really played with the
mirror system's much though, so that is what I will do.
I do thank you for taking the trouble to describe things to me though.
Sometimes I'm a bit flippant in my replies but I'm mostly just kidding
you and I do appreciate the thought and effort that goes into your posts.
Ed
Stephen N. wrote:
> Geez Ed, you just aren't believing in me. I said that imagining the
> table, or seeing it drawn out, tells you why they system works but you
> don't have to imagine the table when you are using the system. I've
> said that one and two rail banks can easily be calculated but three
> rails require a third reflected table that is hard to imagine.
>
> For one and two rails though, it is pretty simple:
>
> One rail, one mirror. You already know how to do this, but in case
> anyone does not:
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #1003451 ] |
Fri, 05 May 2006 22:09 |
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Ed McCune wrote:
> Hmmmmm. I'd have to put the spot in the dirt about 4 feet down in the
> middle of my lawn, then tunnel through the basement to that point.
>
> OK. Can do. Wife won't like it but WTF. That's her problem. Pool comes
> first.:-)
>
> Ed
>
> Donald Tees wrote:
>
>> I got out a measuring tape, and marked the spots. Then practiced using
>> them. Of course, that requires playing a specific table where there is
>> room.
>>
>> Donald
Well it did involve removing one wall, and the kitchen counter, but as
you say ...
Donald
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #1006604 ] |
Sat, 06 May 2006 08:22 |
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In article <ZNN6g.23555$cZ3.5567 [at] clgrps13>,
"Stephen N." <Steelystephen [at] coldmail.com> wrote:
> One rail, one mirror. You already know how to do this, but in case
> anyone does not: You find the imaginary reflection of the ball by
> measuring from the OB to the rail and then the same distance straight
> out from the rail. That is your point in space. A straight line from
> there to the CB gives you your rail spot.
As I (and several other posters) have pointed out, the edge of the
cushion is not the reflection plane, it is the rail gutter (one ball
radius away from the cushion edge). If you do it my measuring
distances, then the distance should be from the ball to the rail
gutter, not from the ball to the cushion. If you look at the
Koehler diagrams that were posted a couple of days ago, he gets this
right.
The difference is most obvious for short kick shots when the object
ball is close to the cushion. If the ball is within a ball radius
of the cushion, then the imaginary reflected ball overlaps with the
actual ball, and in the limit that the object ball is touching the
cushion, the imaginary reflected ball and the actual ball are at the
same location. I guess it is clear in this case that you can shoot
at either one of them and make the shot. :-) If instead you were to
use the rail edge as the reflection plane, then the reflected ball
and the actual ball would never be in the same spot, and in the
frozen ball case if you shoot at the wrong one you would clearly
miss the shot.
IMO, the multirail versions of the mirror system are often not
particularly useful. First, the distances are much harder to judge,
especially if there are walls in the way. But even more important
is the fact that the ball picks up spin from the cushions, and that
spin affects the rebound angles off the second (and later) cushions
in a significant way. This doesn't mean that the mirror stuff is
useless, but the corrections are so large that it just isn't as
accurate as the one-rail version. For example, if you have a
two-rail kick shot with the cue ball hitting the first cushion at
about a 45 degree angle, then the mirror system is pretty accurate.
But if the cue ball hits the first cushion either shallower or
steeper than 45 degrees, then the mirror system might be off by as
much as a diamond distance. When your target spot might be only a
few mm, getting within a diamond is just not particularly useful.
So on these shots where the simple geometry doesn't work, and you
don't have the shot memorized, you are probably best off learning
one of the diamond-counting systems. These aren't based on
geometry, they are simply empirical interpolations based on
experience.
On the other hand, I personally prefer the "geometrical" systems to
numerical diamond-counting type systems for their simplicity, so
when they work, that's my first choice. However, I know some good
players who just can't think geometrically, and they prefer to count
diamonds even for "simple" shots, such as one-rail kicks.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #1006613 ] |
Sat, 06 May 2006 18:36 |
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I agree with Ron's interpretation here, now that I have had a chance to
play with the mirror systems a bit. They seem to work pretty good for
wither 1 rail kicks or banks, particularly the few odd ones I have
trouble with, and also for the rail first carom shot I've been playing
with. Using the gutter instead of the rail was the key here.
However 2 or 3 rail kicks and banks were pretty much useless to me.
Other trick, non-geometric solutions work better for me even is I do
have to remember several. It's helpful to know the geometric solution,
though, as I can extrapolate unknown kicks a little easier.
Thanks Ron and Stephen.
Ed
Ron Shepard wrote:
> IMO, the multirail versions of the mirror system are often not
> particularly useful. First, the distances are much harder to judge,
> especially if there are walls in the way. But even more important
> is the fact that the ball picks up spin from the cushions, and that
> spin affects the rebound angles off the second (and later) cushions
> in a significant way. This doesn't mean that the mirror stuff is
> useless, but the corrections are so large that it just isn't as
> accurate as the one-rail version. For example, if you have a
> two-rail kick shot with the cue ball hitting the first cushion at
> about a 45 degree angle, then the mirror system is pretty accurate.
> But if the cue ball hits the first cushion either shallower or
> steeper than 45 degrees, then the mirror system might be off by as
> much as a diamond distance. When your target spot might be only a
> few mm, getting within a diamond is just not particularly useful.
> So on these shots where the simple geometry doesn't work, and you
> don't have the shot memorized, you are probably best off learning
> one of the diamond-counting systems. These aren't based on
> geometry, they are simply empirical interpolations based on
> experience.
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #1006627 ] |
Sat, 06 May 2006 23:16 |
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Ron Shepard wrote:
> In article <ZNN6g.23555$cZ3.5567 [at] clgrps13>,
> "Stephen N." <Steelystephen [at] coldmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>One rail, one mirror. You already know how to do this, but in case
>>anyone does not: You find the imaginary reflection of the ball by
>>measuring from the OB to the rail and then the same distance straight
>>out from the rail. That is your point in space. A straight line from
>>there to the CB gives you your rail spot.
>
>
> As I (and several other posters) have pointed out, the edge of the
> cushion is not the reflection plane, it is the rail gutter (one ball
> radius away from the cushion edge). If you do it my measuring
> distances, then the distance should be from the ball to the rail
> gutter, not from the ball to the cushion. If you look at the
> Koehler diagrams that were posted a couple of days ago, he gets this
> right.
I took this all back to my handy CAD table for a look and I feel kind of
like Phineas. J Whoopee when I do this. Up til now I've satisfied with
dealing with the balls as points without dimension so this is the first
time I have taken ball dimension into account.
You are quite correct, the gutter ,which is where the center of the ball
would be, is the proper reflection line. The system also assumes a full
ball hit so calculations must take that into account. To make a proper
calculation you'd really have to use the gutter reflection of the ghost
ball.
>
> The difference is most obvious for short kick shots when the object
> ball is close to the cushion. If the ball is within a ball radius
> of the cushion, then the imaginary reflected ball overlaps with the
> actual ball, and in the limit that the object ball is touching the
> cushion, the imaginary reflected ball and the actual ball are at the
> same location. I guess it is clear in this case that you can shoot
> at either one of them and make the shot. :-) If instead you were to
> use the rail edge as the reflection plane, then the reflected ball
> and the actual ball would never be in the same spot, and in the
> frozen ball case if you shoot at the wrong one you would clearly
> miss the shot.
The system actually breaks down when the OB is closer than a ball radius
from the rail, at least using the full ball hit assumption because you
can't get past the OB on the way down, in order to hit it on the way up.
So, after looking at this, my (new) conclusion is that the gutter line
for half ball line should be used as the reflection line and that the
ghost ball should be used for the reflected image. This is true also
for the two rail, two mirror system. The intersection of the
gutterlines should be used at the corner point rather than the
intersection of the rail lines.
Very good point about the gutter line, I think this should be
geometrically correct now. Funny that it seemed to work so well for
most of the time. It goes to show how we subconciously correct until
something works, even if we don't know it, or know why. Now I am going
to take this knowledge to the table and see if it accounts for some of
the inaccuracies in my two rail banks. Proper calculation should mean
less fudge factors to hit the shot in practice. Thanks for pointing
this out.
> So on these shots where the simple geometry doesn't work, and you
> don't have the shot memorized, you are probably best off learning
> one of the diamond-counting systems. These aren't based on
> geometry, they are simply empirical interpolations based on
> experience.
For three rail shots, I use known pathways I derived using diamond
systems but I haven't been successful at memorizing the systems well
enough to calculate any shot from it.
I really hope all this isn't make it sould like I think I can shoot
worth a lick. I wouldn't want to give that false impression!
Stephen N. ---> learned something again today...
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #1006628 ] |
Sat, 06 May 2006 23:30 |
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Stephen N. wrote:
> So, after looking at this, my (new) conclusion is that the gutter line
> for half ball line should be used as the reflection line and that the
> ghost ball should be used for the reflected image. This is true also
> for the two rail, two mirror system. The intersection of the
> gutterlines should be used at the corner point rather than the
> intersection of the rail lines.
I took this to my handy CAD table to test for two rail shots and of
course, it still holds true. Using the gutterline or half ball radius
from the rail works for two rail and three rail calculations.
Stephen N.--->you knew it would, didn't you...
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #1006630 ] |
Sat, 06 May 2006 23:48 |
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Stephen N. wrote:
> Stephen N. wrote:
>
>> So, after looking at this, my (new) conclusion is that the gutter line
>> for half ball line should be used as the reflection line and that the
>> ghost ball should be used for the reflected image. This is true also
>> for the two rail, two mirror system. The intersection of the
>> gutterlines should be used at the corner point rather than the
>> intersection of the rail lines.
>
>
> I took this to my handy CAD table to test for two rail shots and of
> course, it still holds true. Using the gutterline or half ball radius
> from the rail works for two rail and three rail calculations.
>
> Stephen N.--->you knew it would, didn't you...
>
So I measure width cushion nose to cushion nose, then subtract one ball
width? That gives me me basic grid dimension?
Donald (getting out the transit)
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| Re: 3 rail kicks on AZB [message #1006632 ] |
Sun, 07 May 2006 01:39 |
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Donald Tees wrote:
> Stephen N. wrote:
>
>>Stephen N. wrote:
>>
>>
>>>So, after looking at this, my (new) conclusion is that the gutter line
>>>for half ball line should be used as the reflection line and that the
>>>ghost ball should be used for the reflected image. This is true also
>>>for the two rail, two mirror system. The intersection of the
>>>gutterlines should be used at the corner point rather than the
>>>intersection of the rail lines.
>>
>>
>>I took this to my handy CAD table to test for two rail shots and of
>>course, it still holds true. Using the gutterline or half ball radius
>>from the rail works for two rail and three rail calculations.
>>
>>Stephen N.--->you knew it would, didn't you...
>>
>
>
> So I measure width cushion nose to cushion nose, then subtract one ball
> width? That gives me me basic grid dimension?
Yes, that would give you the dimension. The gutter line we're talking
about is 1/2 a ball width in from the rail all around the table. That
is where the center of the ball is when the ball contacts the rail.
Using the gutter line gives us the ability to measure angles easily by
considering the balls as dimensionless points without having to
compensate for ball thickness.
Stephen N.
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