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Sports » rec.sport.rugby.union » Questions about Irish rugby
| Questions about Irish rugby [message #983411] |
Fri, 28 April 2006 10:16 |
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Hi, this is something for our Irish friends.
I’m French and I’m working on a comparative study of the different
national rugby championships of the main rugby nations. (AIB, Celtic
league, in the case of Ireland)
I’m trying to estimate the importance of the national championship in
each country and to understand how the changes which might have occurred
since rugby became a professional sport were taken, how the fans rate a
win in the national championship compared to a win in their
international club competition (Heineken cup in your case), how they
feel about international tests being held the same day as national club
games etc… We see in the southern hemisphere but also now in Ireland or
Wales that a continental tournament involving provinces (Heineken cup in
Europe or Super 14in SH) have got far more important than national
tournaments (New Zealand’s NPC, South African’s Currie cup, Irish or
welsh premiership or Celtic league), correct me if I’m wrong.
For example in France the French championship has a long tradition and
is very important for the players and for the fans. The trophy has
always been awarded after a final, which for decades has been played in
Paris, and the trophy being handed to the winning side by the President
of the Republic, showing how important the event is in the French rugby
season. The Heineken cup (European club tournament) is a young
tournament and is highly regarded too, I would say that winning the
Heineken cup is now considered equal to winning the French championship.
I would like to collect as much information as possible about the Celtic
league and AIB? regarding a few things:
- The Celtic league is a young tournament. What lead to its creation?
Does the fact that the Celtic League lasts the whole season mean that
the best Irish players don’t play in the national Irish championship AIB
at all or do they play part of it? I think the answer is ‘they don’t
play it at all’ and therefore I would like to know how did the fans
react to the fact that the best Irish players don’t compete any longer
for the title of champion of Ireland?
- Are the celtic league players still linked to an AIB club or can they
be regarded as only Munster/Leinster/… players?
- The Celtic league was created a few years ago but the provincial teams
of Munster, Leinster, Ulster and Connacht were already taking part in
the Heineken cup since 1996. Was it the only tournament these teams were
playing at that time? In which other club/province teams and tournaments
did the Irish players play at that time apart from the Heineken cup?
- Did Munster, Leinster, Ulster and Connacht teams exist before the
Heineken cup was created? If yes what other tournament were they playing?
- How is the Celtic league rated? Do the best players (the likes of
Ronan O’Gara, Peter Stringer, Paul O’Connel, Brian O’Driscoll etc…) play
most of the Celtic League games or do they only play the Heineken cup
games and international games with Ireland?
- Currently, there are no Celtic League games taking place when
international games are played. How would the fans feel about it if it
happened?
I thank you very much in advance for answering all or part of my questions.
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| Re: Questions about Irish rugby [message #983414 ] |
Fri, 28 April 2006 11:13 |
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> I’m trying to estimate the importance of the national championship in
> each country and to understand how the changes which might have
> occurred since rugby became a professional sport were taken, how the
> fans rate a win in the national championship compared to a win in
> their international club competition (Heineken cup in your case), how they
> feel about international tests being held the same day as national
> club games etc… We see in the southern hemisphere but also now in
> Ireland or Wales that a continental tournament involving provinces
> (Heineken cup in Europe or Super 14in SH) have got far more important
> than national tournaments (New Zealand’s NPC, South African’s Currie
> cup, Irish or welsh premiership or Celtic league), correct me if I’m
> wrong.
>
> For example in France the French championship has a long tradition and
> is very important for the players and for the fans. The trophy has
> always been awarded after a final, which for decades has been played
> in Paris, and the trophy being handed to the winning side by the
> President of the Republic, showing how important the event is in the
> French
> rugby season. The Heineken cup (European club tournament) is a young
> tournament and is highly regarded too, I would say that winning the
> Heineken cup is now considered equal to winning the French
> championship.
> I would like to collect as much information as possible about the
> Celtic league and AIB? regarding a few things:
>
> - The Celtic league is a young tournament. What lead to its creation?
> Does the fact that the Celtic League lasts the whole season mean that
> the best Irish players don’t play in the national Irish championship
> AIB at all or do they play part of it? I think the answer is ‘they
> don’t play it at all’ and therefore I would like to know how did the fans
> react to the fact that the best Irish players don’t compete any longer
> for the title of champion of Ireland?
> - Are the celtic league players still linked to an AIB club or can
> they be regarded as only Munster/Leinster/… players?
> - The Celtic league was created a few years ago but the provincial
> teams of Munster, Leinster, Ulster and Connacht were already taking
> part in the Heineken cup since 1996. Was it the only tournament these
> teams
> were playing at that time? In which other club/province teams and
> tournaments did the Irish players play at that time apart from the
> Heineken cup? - Did Munster, Leinster, Ulster and Connacht teams
> exist before the Heineken cup was created? If yes what other
> tournament were they playing? - How is the Celtic league rated? Do
> the best players (the likes of Ronan O’Gara, Peter Stringer, Paul O’Connel,
> Brian O’Driscoll etc…)
> play most of the Celtic League games or do they only play the
> Heineken cup games and international games with Ireland?
> - Currently, there are no Celtic League games taking place when
> international games are played. How would the fans feel about it if it
> happened?
>
> I thank you very much in advance for answering all or part of my
> questions.
Big question!!
The provincial sides of Connacht, Leinster, Munster & Ulster have been
established for many years. My father played for Ulster in 1952. They have
various levels - Schoolboy (even back then) and various age group teams.
Traditionally, up to the start of the European Cup, they played each other
in the Provincial Championship - 3 games. If memory serves me correctly an
'Exiles' Province was picked and played in the early 90's.
When International matches are played Club matches kick off early. I'm not
that was the same when the provinces played. Suffice to say that attendance
at Provincial matches would have been modest - hundreds rather than 1000's.
The exception would have been when a Province played a touring side such as
Australia or New Zealand. Bigger crowds would have turned out to watch the
visitors.
All the while Provincial players were amateurs playing for their Clubs. At
that time Clubs played in their own Championship within their province. I
think there would have been around 12-15 'senior' clubs in Ulster. The rest
of the games in a season would have been 'friendlies'. That said we would
probably have got bigger crowds for a league / friendly back then than a
Club would get now for an All Ireland League game - top clubs perhaps
excepted.
With the advent of the 'professional' era players became affiliated to a
Club but were paid by the IRFU. There are various levels of contract from
part-time development up to full-time International. The top players would
seldom play for their club other than coming back from injury etc.
In the early days of the European Cup the players turned out for their clubs
and then came together for the Province for the European campaign. In 1999
when Ulster won, the final was played in January / February with the players
then returning to their clubs for the remainder of the AIL season. The
advent of the Celtic League has lengthened the Provincial sides' seasons
preventing players from returning to club level.
There is no doubt that the emphasis, from a supporting viewpoint, has
shifted significantly from club to Province. Just look at the Leinster /
Munster game last weekend. They could have sold twice as many tickets!
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| Re: Questions about Irish rugby [message #983453 ] |
Fri, 28 April 2006 16:31 |
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For most of the past, the focus for rugby in Ireland was club
rugby and the most valued prize for a club was a provincial
senior cup. These matches drew big crowds. Then in the early
90s, the All-Ireland league started which for a while boosted the
club game with regular games between the top clubs from the
provinces. The league seemed to go from strength to strength for
a few years before tapering off. The format of the league had
become more convoluted largely due to squabbling between the
clubs; an attempt to create an elite club "premiership" failed
for the same reason. At it's height a top league match would
draw 10000 supporters. At the final last year there was less
than 1000. I've gone to 4 or 5 games this season - some have had
less than 100.
The provinces have been around for ever but as rugby teams were
less important than the clubs (or the national side obviously).
They were much more like invitational clubs - representing the
cream of the associated clubs. The amount of time they spent
together training was very limited. This is why you still have
the legacy of players being associated with a club as well as a
province. As well as playing the odd touring international side,
the provinces competed in the "inter-pros" - an annual series of
games between themselves. They always drew relatively large
crowds for glamour touring SH sides but I remember attending an
inter-pros game as a kid which couldn't have had more than 500
spectators. Until the Celtic League started, provincial players
still played regularly with their clubs outside of this limited
series of games and this remained the case even when the European
cups started. Occasionally this still occurs with players
recovering from injury. In addition a "second-tier" of players
(mostly younger players) are given provincial contracts but are
largely left to play with a club. But for top players, the
association with a club is largely meaningless these days - once
established in the provincial squad, they never play with their
clubs.
The Celtic League has had a rocky few years. The Irish sides
always competed strongly against each other for historical pride
but the messing around with the format, poor fixture planning,
the perfidious attitude of the Welsh clubs and the lack of a real
sponsor/money has not helped it develop. Even so, it has grown
in popularity in Ireland with crowd numbers creeping up. A
record 14000 attended the Leinster/Munster clash this year and
Ulster regularly draws 10000 crowds. The Celtic League fixture
list was rearranged last year to avoid clashes with international
commitments (matches and training) to ensure the top players were
available and as a result most league matches have featured the
top players this year and the quality has improved. The
competition has also gained more significance because the IRFU
has said it will use standings in the league to determine HC
seedings.
I would say the standard of rugby is sometimes very high and
generally quite high and occasionally shite. But it's certainly
up there with what the Zurich Premiership has to offer from what
I've seen on telly and often a great deal more entertaining. The
European cup results demonstrate that top Celtic Leagues sides
are well able to beat top ZP sides and top French sides.
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