| Help please [message #983033] |
Sun, 23 April 2006 04:57 |
|
I have lost a book I used to have so I can't look this up myself, so can
anyone help me please.
In 1978 there was the so called infamous incident where Andy Haden took
a dive from a lineout in the Welsh test in Cardiff. There were charges
of cheating, but the fact was the referee gave a penalty for a different
reason. Can anyone tell me the name of the ref, and the exact reason for
the penalty (which was kicked by McKechnie to win the game).
I really need to be able to quote a reputable source and would
appreciate it if someone has a book relating to that tour and can dig
out the info for me. Cheers
|
|
|
| Re: Help please [message #983034 ] |
Sun, 23 April 2006 05:07 |
|
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 14:57:15 +1200, Ronaldo [at] kakariki.conz (Squibby)
wrote:
>I have lost a book I used to have so I can't look this up myself, so can
>anyone help me please.
>
>In 1978 there was the so called infamous incident where Andy Haden took
>a dive from a lineout in the Welsh test in Cardiff. There were charges
>of cheating, but the fact was the referee gave a penalty for a different
>reason. Can anyone tell me the name of the ref, and the exact reason for
>the penalty (which was kicked by McKechnie to win the game).
Referee was Quittenton from England IIRC. He maintained after the game
that the penalty was awarded for another infringement in the lineout,
but I can't remember off the top of my head. Sorry, not much help
there.
Myk
|
|
|
| Re: Help please [message #983035 ] |
Sun, 23 April 2006 05:30 |
|
Squibby wrote:
> I have lost a book I used to have so I can't look this up myself, so can
> anyone help me please.
>
> In 1978 there was the so called infamous incident where Andy Haden took
> a dive from a lineout in the Welsh test in Cardiff. There were charges
> of cheating, but the fact was the referee gave a penalty for a different
> reason. Can anyone tell me the name of the ref, and the exact reason for
> the penalty (which was kicked by McKechnie to win the game).
>
> I really need to be able to quote a reputable source and would
> appreciate it if someone has a book relating to that tour and can dig
> out the info for me. Cheers
This post from 2002 in which I comment on this issue may help you:
"I watched the game live on NZTV in 1978 and I have highlights on
video on an All Black documentary tape. NZ rugby bible "Men in Black"
(R.H.Chester and N.A.C.MacMillan, MOA Publications 1978) also has
frame-by-frame photos of the incident.
The incident happened in the final minutes of the Wales-New Zealand
test at the old Cardiff Arms Park on 11 November 1978. New Zealand had
already beaten Ireland 10-6 and this was the second test of the
old-style four test series against all four home nations.
Wales were leading 12-10 through three penalty goals to wing W.G.
Davies (Cardiff) and one to centre S.P.Fenwick (Bridgend), against a
try to All Black wing Stu Wilson and two penalty goals to replacement
fullback Brian McKechnie.
The Welsh forwards were dominating territory and possession and the
All Blacks saw very little action in the Wales half in the later stage
of the game. Defeat loomed ominously for the All Blacks.
This excerpt from "Men in Black":
"However, with three minutes to play the deciding blow for New Zealand
was struck during one of their forays into the opposition half. At a
line-out ten metres outside the Welsh 22, Wheel was detected by Mr.
Quittenton, a mathematics lecturer from Sussex controlling his first
full international, leaping off the shoulder of [Otago lock and
future All Black captain Frank] Oliver. Concurrent with this incident
[Auckland lock Andy] Haden, in a desperate bid to gain a vital
penalty; threw himself out of the lineout with a dramatic dive. It was
this more spectacular action that was seen by most observers and much
coment was generated by it. McKechnie took the important kick from 37
metres quickly and it travelled straight and true to take New Zealand
to a one point lead. For the final minutes the All Blacks kept Wales
pinned inside their half and safeguarded a quite remarkable victory."
The All Blacks went on to defeat England 16-6 and Scotland 18-9 to win
their first Grand Slam in the British Isles.
The incident was immediately controversial and the Welsh vilified Mr
Quittenton for being duped into penalising Wales from what was
obviously a faked offence by Haden. Quittenton responded that the
penalty had been for Swansea lock Geoff Wheel jumping off the shoulder
of Frank Oliver. The photos and the video both show this to be
completely accurate. The ball is clearly shown thrown in, and Haden
starts his dive virtually as the ball leaves the hooker's hands. Wheel
jumps, propelling himself up off Oliver, who is pushed sideways from
the lineout by this action.
The referee was correct, the penalty was fair. Naturally the Welsh
were upset at New Zealand snatching victory from the jaws of defeat,
particulalry as the Welsh probably had the better of the game overall,
but they can't complain they were cheated as the offence was genuine
and the resulting penalty entirely justified.
New Zealand supporters may even feel there was a certain amount of
ironic justice in it as the starting fullback, Clive Currie, was
forced to leave the field with a fractured jaw after a savage tackle
by Fenwick six minutes into the game, and his replacement, McKechnie,
a part time All Black who was not even named in the original reserves,
was the hero of the hour for the All Blacks with the winning penalty.
Haden's action was largely condemned in New Zealand as being
unsportsmanlike, but it came as no surprise as Haden was one of the
original forerunners of modern rugby thinking, for better or for
worse. He was one of the early proponents for professionalism and had
no qualms about some of the less honourable associations with
professional sport. Sportmanship was not one of his major virtues,
although he was never a dirty player and was one of New Zealand's
longest-serving and most succesful locks."
-- rick boyd
|
|
|
| Re: Help please [message #983041 ] |
Sun, 23 April 2006 08:42 |
|
Just to add to the "unsportsmanlike" trivia value - Brian McKechnie was
also the man who faced Australia's famous "underarm" bowl on February
1st, 1981.
Wallsy
|
|
|
| Re: Help please [message #983046 ] |
Sun, 23 April 2006 13:17 |
|
"Squibby" <Ronaldo [at] kakariki.conz> wrote in message
news:1he957d.1jv8j1as206uN%Ronaldo [at] kakariki.conz...
>I have lost a book I used to have so I can't look this up myself, so can
> anyone help me please.
A book, what's that? Have you heard of Google?
>
> In 1978 there was the so called infamous incident where Andy Haden took
> a dive from a lineout in the Welsh test in Cardiff. There were charges
> of cheating, but the fact was the referee gave a penalty for a different
> reason. Can anyone tell me the name of the ref, and the exact reason for
> the penalty (which was kicked by McKechnie to win the game).
>
> I really need to be able to quote a reputable source and would
> appreciate it if someone has a book relating to that tour and can dig
> out the info for me. Cheers
|
|
|
| Re: Help please [message #983049 ] |
Sun, 23 April 2006 15:08 |
|
Uncle Bully wrote:
> "Squibby" <Ronaldo [at] kakariki.conz> wrote in message
> news:1he957d.1jv8j1as206uN%Ronaldo [at] kakariki.conz...
>> I have lost a book I used to have so I can't look this up myself, so can
>> anyone help me please.
>
>
> A book, what's that? Have you heard of Google?
>
>> In 1978 there was the so called infamous incident where Andy Haden took
>> a dive from a lineout in the Welsh test in Cardiff. There were charges
>> of cheating, but the fact was the referee gave a penalty for a different
>> reason. Can anyone tell me the name of the ref, and the exact reason for
>> the penalty (which was kicked by McKechnie to win the game).
>>
>> I really need to be able to quote a reputable source and would
>> appreciate it if someone has a book relating to that tour and can dig
>> out the info for me. Cheers
>
>
I was actually there, on the half way line as well....
IIRC, most of the Welsh complaints afterwards were about All Black
stamping, how times change eh?
One thing I do recall about that tour though is how Graham Mourie stated
they would beat Munster and move onto the next test. What followed was a
good mix of egg on face and repeats of immortal scorelines. You had to
laugh...
|
|
|
| Re: Help please [message #983062 ] |
Sun, 23 April 2006 23:33 |
|
Uncle Bully <wakeupcall [at] optushome.com.au.REMOVE> wrote:
> "Squibby" <Ronaldo [at] kakariki.conz> wrote in message
> news:1he957d.1jv8j1as206uN%Ronaldo [at] kakariki.conz...
> >I have lost a book I used to have so I can't look this up myself, so can
> > anyone help me please.
>
>
> A book, what's that? Have you heard of Google?
I'm deaf!
|
|
|
| Re: Help please [message #983063 ] |
Sun, 23 April 2006 23:34 |
|
rick boyd <boyd [at] comswest.net.au> wrote:
> Squibby wrote:
> > I have lost a book I used to have so I can't look this up myself, so can
> > anyone help me please.
> >
> > In 1978 there was the so called infamous incident where Andy Haden took
> > a dive from a lineout in the Welsh test in Cardiff. There were charges
> > of cheating, but the fact was the referee gave a penalty for a different
> > reason. Can anyone tell me the name of the ref, and the exact reason for
> > the penalty (which was kicked by McKechnie to win the game).
> >
> > I really need to be able to quote a reputable source and would
> > appreciate it if someone has a book relating to that tour and can dig
> > out the info for me. Cheers
>
> This post from 2002 in which I comment on this issue may help you:
>
> "I watched the game live on NZTV in 1978 and I have highlights on
> video on an All Black documentary tape. NZ rugby bible "Men in Black"
> (R.H.Chester and N.A.C.MacMillan, MOA Publications 1978) also has
> frame-by-frame photos of the incident.
> -- rick boyd
(snip)
Many thanks for your response. I want to correct the All Blacks entry
on Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Black where I edit
under a different pseudonym.
Could I suggest you foing up with Wikipedia too. I am sure you could
make veryworthwhile contributions, especially to the rugby oriented
articles.
Ch eers
|
|
|
| Re: Help please [message #983064 ] |
Sun, 23 April 2006 23:36 |
|
Squibby <Ronaldo [at] kakariki.conz> wrote:
> rick boyd <boyd [at] comswest.net.au> wrote:
>
> > Squibby wrote:
> > > I have lost a book I used to have so I can't look this up myself, so can
> > > anyone help me please.
> > >
> > > In 1978 there was the so called infamous incident where Andy Haden took
> > > a dive from a lineout in the Welsh test in Cardiff. There were charges
> > > of cheating, but the fact was the referee gave a penalty for a different
> > > reason. Can anyone tell me the name of the ref, and the exact reason for
> > > the penalty (which was kicked by McKechnie to win the game).
> > >
> > > I really need to be able to quote a reputable source and would
> > > appreciate it if someone has a book relating to that tour and can dig
> > > out the info for me. Cheers
> >
> > This post from 2002 in which I comment on this issue may help you:
> >
> > "I watched the game live on NZTV in 1978 and I have highlights on
> > video on an All Black documentary tape. NZ rugby bible "Men in Black"
> > (R.H.Chester and N.A.C.MacMillan, MOA Publications 1978) also has
> > frame-by-frame photos of the incident.
> > -- rick boyd
>
> (snip)
>
> Many thanks for your response. I want to correct the All Blacks entry
> on Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Black where I edit
> under a different pseudonym.
>
> Could I suggest you foing up with Wikipedia too. I am sure you could
> make veryworthwhile contributions, especially to the rugby oriented
> articles.
>
> Ch eers
Foing? Jpin. Oh shucks
|
|
|
| Re: Help please [message #983068 ] |
Mon, 24 April 2006 00:10 |
|
Squibby wrote:
[...]
> Many thanks for your response. I want to correct the All Blacks entry
> on Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Black where I edit
> under a different pseudonym.
Rick is a storehouse of useful information - it says in this mail he
sent. Well, I think it says 'storehouse' but the hand writing is terrible.
Anyway, remember to get the referee's name spelled correctly. It's
'Fucking Roger Fucking Quittenton'.
> Could I suggest you foing up with Wikipedia too. I am sure you could
> make veryworthwhile contributions, especially to the rugby oriented
> articles.
Regards
The Green Phantom
|
|
|
| Re: Help please [message #983071 ] |
Mon, 24 April 2006 00:37 |
|
The Green Phantom <ask [at] the.right.time> wrote:
> Squibby wrote:
> [...]
> > Many thanks for your response. I want to correct the All Blacks entry
> > on Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Black where I edit
> > under a different pseudonym.
>
> Rick is a storehouse of useful information - it says in this mail he
> sent. Well, I think it says 'storehouse' but the hand writing is terrible.
>
> Anyway, remember to get the referee's name spelled correctly. It's
> 'Fucking Roger Fucking Quittenton'.
You sure? It's Quittendon in most reports I have seen.
Cheers
|
|
|
| Re: Help please [message #983096 ] |
Mon, 24 April 2006 10:41 |
|
Squibby wrote:
> Uncle Bully <wakeupcall [at] optushome.com.au.REMOVE> wrote:
>
>> "Squibby" <Ronaldo [at] kakariki.conz> wrote in message
>> news:1he957d.1jv8j1as206uN%Ronaldo [at] kakariki.conz...
>>> I have lost a book I used to have so I can't look this up myself, so can
>>> anyone help me please.
>>
>> A book, what's that? Have you heard of Google?
>
> I'm deaf!
>
Don't worry, most people here are one eyed....
It was a good game though....
|
|
|
| Re: Help please [message #983102 ] |
Mon, 24 April 2006 10:54 |
|
Squibby wrote:
> The Green Phantom <ask [at] the.right.time> wrote:
>
> > Squibby wrote:
> > [...]
> > > Many thanks for your response. I want to correct the All Blacks entry
> > > on Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Black where I edit
> > > under a different pseudonym.
> >
> > Rick is a storehouse of useful information - it says in this mail he
> > sent. Well, I think it says 'storehouse' but the hand writing is terrible.
> >
> > Anyway, remember to get the referee's name spelled correctly. It's
> > 'Fucking Roger Fucking Quittenton'.
>
> You sure? It's Quittendon in most reports I have seen.
Scrum.com writes: "This was the closest Wales had got to the All Blacks
in 25 years - since the infamous day when referee Roger Quittenton
failed to spot Andy Haden throwing himself theatrically from a line -
out and instead penalised Wales's Geoff Wheel for a lesser offence,
allowing Brian McKechnie to kick a penalty for a 13-12 All Black win."
He is also listed in the Sussex society of referees, the Taipei times,
Andy Haden's autobiography, the BBC and numerous other sources as Roger
Quittenton.
|
|
|
| Re: Help please [message #983103 ] |
Mon, 24 April 2006 10:52 |
|
Squibby wrote:
> The Green Phantom <ask [at] the.right.time> wrote:
>
>> Squibby wrote:
>> [...]
>>> Many thanks for your response. I want to correct the All Blacks entry
>>> on Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Black where I edit
>>> under a different pseudonym.
>> Rick is a storehouse of useful information - it says in this mail he
>> sent. Well, I think it says 'storehouse' but the hand writing is terrible.
>>
>> Anyway, remember to get the referee's name spelled correctly. It's
>> 'Fucking Roger Fucking Quittenton'.
>
> You sure? It's Quittendon in most reports I have seen.
Always been Quittenton whenever I've seen it. (And that's two Fucking
with capital 'F')
regards
The Green Phantom
|
|
|
| Re: Help please [message #983111 ] |
Mon, 24 April 2006 11:06 |
|
Martyn W wrote:
> Scrum.com writes: "This was the closest Wales had got to the All Blacks
> in 25 years - since the infamous day when referee Roger Quittenton
> failed to spot Andy Haden throwing himself theatrically from a line -
> out and instead penalised Wales's Geoff Wheel for a lesser offence,
> allowing Brian McKechnie to kick a penalty for a 13-12 All Black win."
This sounds like it is an offence to throw yourself theatrically from a
lineout.
I suppose he could be penalised for unsportsmanlike behaviour or
whatever that catch-all phrase is that allows refs to penalise anyone
for anything they feel like, but really -- what possible advantage to a
team is it when a player throws himself out of the lineout, away from
the opposition and the opposition goal line without interfering with
anybody in any way.
Looking like a fuckwit ought to be penalty enough.
-- rick boyd
|
|
|
| Re: Help please [message #983126 ] |
Mon, 24 April 2006 13:27 |
|
rick boyd wrote:
<snip>
Same old Kiwis - always cheating, and same old Wales - always whinging.
It's nice to see some rugby traditions holding true through the ages...
UD
|
|
|
| Re: Help please [message #983135 ] |
Mon, 24 April 2006 14:49 |
|
Uncle Dave wrote:
> rick boyd wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> Same old Kiwis - always cheating, and same old Wales - always whinging.
>
> It's nice to see some rugby traditions holding true through the ages...
Same old Covey - trolling lightweight to the end.
Cheers
Brent
|
|
|
| Re: Help please [message #983138 ] |
Mon, 24 April 2006 14:58 |
|
rick boyd wrote:
> Martyn W wrote:
>
>
> > Scrum.com writes: "This was the closest Wales had got to the All Blacks
> > in 25 years - since the infamous day when referee Roger Quittenton
> > failed to spot Andy Haden throwing himself theatrically from a line -
> > out and instead penalised Wales's Geoff Wheel for a lesser offence,
> > allowing Brian McKechnie to kick a penalty for a 13-12 All Black win."
>
> This sounds like it is an offence to throw yourself theatrically from a
> lineout.
>
> I suppose he could be penalised for unsportsmanlike behaviour or
> whatever that catch-all phrase is that allows refs to penalise anyone
> for anything they feel like, but really -- what possible advantage to a
> team is it when a player throws himself out of the lineout, away from
> the opposition and the opposition goal line without interfering with
> anybody in any way.
>
> Looking like a fuckwit ought to be penalty enough.
My dad sent him a pair of tights. I don't know if he ever got them, he
neglected to mention it in his autobiography.
|
|
|
| Re: Help please [message #983139 ] |
Mon, 24 April 2006 15:00 |
|
didgerman wrote:
> Squibby wrote:
> > Uncle Bully <wakeupcall [at] optushome.com.au.REMOVE> wrote:
> >
> >> "Squibby" <Ronaldo [at] kakariki.conz> wrote in message
> >> news:1he957d.1jv8j1as206uN%Ronaldo [at] kakariki.conz...
> >>> I have lost a book I used to have so I can't look this up myself, so can
> >>> anyone help me please.
> >>
> >> A book, what's that? Have you heard of Google?
> >
> > I'm deaf!
> >
>
> Don't worry, most people here are one eyed....
> It was a good game though....
Were they playing Llanelli then?
|
|
|
| Re: Help please [message #983142 ] |
Mon, 24 April 2006 15:05 |
|
Brent Hadley wrote:
> Uncle Dave wrote:
>
>>rick boyd wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>Same old Kiwis - always cheating, and same old Wales - always whinging.
>>
>>It's nice to see some rugby traditions holding true through the ages...
>
>
> Same old Covey - trolling lightweight to the end.
That's not true.
He's not THAT old.
-- rick boyd
|
|
|
| Re: Help please [message #983185 ] |
Tue, 25 April 2006 11:36 |
|
The Green Phantom <ask [at] the.right.time> wrote:
> Squibby wrote:
> > The Green Phantom <ask [at] the.right.time> wrote:
> >
> >> Squibby wrote:
> >> [...]
> >>> Many thanks for your response. I want to correct the All Blacks entry
> >>> on Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Black where I edit
> >>> under a different pseudonym.
> >> Rick is a storehouse of useful information - it says in this mail he
> >> sent. Well, I think it says 'storehouse' but the hand writing is terrible.
> >>
> >> Anyway, remember to get the referee's name spelled correctly. It's
> >> 'Fucking Roger Fucking Quittenton'.
> >
> > You sure? It's Quittendon in most reports I have seen.
>
> Always been Quittenton whenever I've seen it. (And that's two Fucking
> with capital 'F')
And you are correct, because I e-mailed the Sussex refs assn to find
out. They didn't comment on the two Fs.
cheers
|
|
|
