|
Sports » rec.sport.baseball » Call for Bonds suspension
| Call for Bonds suspension [message #874015] |
Thu, 09 March 2006 12:21 |
|
We call for the immediate and indefiniate suspension and
investigation of Baby Bonds. Unless Bonds can show cause why he
should be reinstated, that suspension should be made permanent, and
should include the HoF.
All of Bonds records should be removed from the record books.
McGwire likewise should be suspended indefinitely from MLB and his
records removed as well.
The homerun record should be returned to rm.
cordially, as always,
rm
--
How come so many stat fans, and pseudo stat fans, are Jewish?
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874020 ] |
Thu, 09 March 2006 15:12 |
|
Ronald Matthews wrote:
> We call for the immediate and indefiniate suspension and
> investigation of Baby Bonds. Unless Bonds can show cause why he
> should be reinstated, that suspension should be made permanent, and
> should include the HoF.
This is, of course, a wet dream. MLB has specific rules and procedures
for suspending a player for a violation of the steroids policy. And,
like it or not, it is predicated on a positive test. Bonds has not
had a positive test, and if MLB tried to do this, Bond would be able to
go to court and win. (And that would, by the way, be cause for him to
be reinstated.)
> All of Bonds records should be removed from the record books.
> McGwire likewise should be suspended indefinitely from MLB and his
> records removed as well.
Why? Is what McGuire did a violation of the rules of baseball at the
time that he did it? Ex post facto rules don't work.
>
> The homerun record should be returned to rm.
Hmmm. I seem to remember a third player also beating RM's numbers...
and he hasn't tested postive for Steroids either. Oh, that's right,
its a presumption of guilt, and you must prove that you are innocent in
your looney tunes world....
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874029 ] |
Thu, 09 March 2006 15:53 |
|
Ronald Matthews, a troll, wrote:
> We call for the immediate and indefiniate suspension and
> investigation of Baby Bonds. Unless Bonds can show cause why he
> should be reinstated, that suspension should be made permanent, and
> should include the HoF.
>
> All of Bonds records should be removed from the record books.
> McGwire likewise should be suspended indefinitely from MLB and his
> records removed as well.
>
> The homerun record should be returned to rm.
If Pete Rose -- ahem, Pete Rose's stats -- were highly beloved amongst
stat fans, especially around here, you'd be calling/trolling for the
same draconian punishments for Rose.
Let's take the hypothetical further. If stat fans were in a small
minority around here, you'd be championing/trolling the stat fan cause.
You'd do it the only way a troll would do it -- you'd be a
pseudo-stat-fan troll, championing the numbers in themselves, outside
their relation to the game.
And you'd just fucking love Barry Bonds numbers. Hell, you'd be
championing/defending steroids somehow or other, because they enhance
the numbers.
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874035 ] |
Thu, 09 March 2006 16:55 |
|
Should the ERA's of pitchers who gave up those homeruns be adjusted
also?
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874041 ] |
Thu, 09 March 2006 17:11 |
|
David the Nationals Fan <davidthenatfan [at] yahoo.com> trolled:
> Ronald Matthews wrote:
> > We call for the immediate and indefiniate suspension and
> > investigation of Baby Bonds. Unless Bonds can show cause why he
> > should be reinstated, that suspension should be made permanent, and
> > should include the HoF.
> This is, of course, a wet dream. MLB has specific rules and
> procedures for suspending a player for a violation of the steroids
> policy. And, like it or not, it is predicated on a positive test.
> Bonds has not had a positive test, and if MLB tried to do this,
> Bond would be able to go to court and win. (And that would, by
> the way, be cause for him to be reinstated.)
Aside from your specific rules, Bud Selig has the authority to
suspend any player for behaviour that is not in the best interests
of the game. If Baby Bonds went to court, then all the steroid
stuff, not to mention his perjury before Grand Jury, would go on
public record.
> > All of Bonds records should be removed from the record books.
> > McGwire likewise should be suspended indefinitely from MLB and
> > his records removed as well.
> Why? Is what McGuire did a violation of the rules of baseball at
> the time that he did it? Ex post facto rules don't work.
The name is McGwire. Selig has both the authority and the
responsibility to act in the best interests of baseball. He can
change the record book and Bonds, McGwire and Sosa have no say about
it.
> > The homerun record should be returned to rm.
> Hmmm. I seem to remember a third player also beating RM's
> numbers... and he hasn't tested postive for Steroids either. Oh,
> that's right, its a presumption of guilt, and you must prove that
> you are innocent in your looney tunes world....
Sosa is as big a steroid fuck as Bonds. Everybody knows this and
the only people who will deny it are the people who first denied
McGwire was a steroid fuck and then denied that Bonds was a steroid
fuck. In other words, stat fans, who are in love with the stats but
are blinded as to what is, to the sport fan, absolutely appalling
behaviour.
cordially, as always,
rm
--
How come so many stat fans, and pseudo stat fans, are Jewish?
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874046 ] |
Thu, 09 March 2006 17:34 |
|
Chris Cathcart <cathcacr [at] gmail.com> trolled:
> If Pete Rose -- ahem, Pete Rose's stats -- were highly beloved
> amongst stat fans, especially around here, you'd be
> calling/trolling for the same draconian punishments for Rose.
Not at all. While Pete Rose owns one of the two most important
records a hitter can hold, he is not known for holding that record
nearly as much as he is remembered for his attitude. But attitude
can't be quantified and, as such, is not important to the stat fan.
That's one of the reasons that stat fans have no respect for Rose.
> Let's take the hypothetical further. If stat fans were in a small
> minority around here, you'd be championing/trolling the stat fan
> cause. You'd do it the only way a troll would do it -- you'd be a
> pseudo-stat-fan troll, championing the numbers in themselves,
> outside their relation to the game.
Sure. And when we got tired of being contrary, which we would, we
would simply move on, like all "trolls" do. Right?
> And you'd just fucking love Barry Bonds numbers. Hell, you'd be
> championing/defending steroids somehow or other, because they
> enhance the numbers.
Not at all. We have been disgusted with Bonds ever since he
declared himself to be better than Willie Mays and we loved Willie
Mays.
Why are so many stat fans Jewish? Do you have any ideas? Or is
your imagination limited to calling people "trolls?"
cordially, as always,
rm
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874053 ] |
Thu, 09 March 2006 18:34 |
|
bob_koca [at] hotmail.com trolled:
> Should the ERA's of pitchers who gave up those homeruns be
> adjusted also?
No, but the saber people will likely do it anyway, since that seems
to be the anal thing to do. That's why you thought of it, right?
Because it is the anal thing to do?
Does that keep you awake at night? Maybe we should chuck Fatboy's
CY Awards. He is probably a steroid fuck as well.
cordially, as always,
rm
--
How come so many stat fans, and pseudo stat fans, are Jewish?
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874054 ] |
Thu, 09 March 2006 18:52 |
|
Ronald Matthews wrote:
> We call for the immediate and indefiniate suspension and
> investigation of Baby Bonds. Unless Bonds can show cause why he
> should be reinstated, that suspension should be made permanent, and
> should include the HoF.
I'm always amused when nobodies "call" for things, as if anybody cares.
> All of Bonds records should be removed from the record books.
So your new intellectual hero is Stalin, for airbrushing history?
> McGwire likewise should be suspended indefinitely from MLB
I agree. He should never be allowed to play first base again.
> and his
> records removed as well.
> The homerun record should be returned to rm.
Who's Maynard?
--
David Marc Nieporent nieporen [at] alumni.princeton.edu
Jumping To Conclusions: http://www.oobleck.com/tollbooth
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874055 ] |
Thu, 09 March 2006 18:57 |
|
Ronald Matthews wrote:
> David the Nationals Fan <davidthenatfan [at] yahoo.com> trolled:
>>Ronald Matthews wrote:
>>>We call for the immediate and indefiniate suspension and
>>>investigation of Baby Bonds. Unless Bonds can show cause why he
>>>should be reinstated, that suspension should be made permanent, and
>>>should include the HoF.
>>This is, of course, a wet dream. MLB has specific rules and
>>procedures for suspending a player for a violation of the steroids
>>policy. And, like it or not, it is predicated on a positive test.
>>Bonds has not had a positive test, and if MLB tried to do this,
>>Bond would be able to go to court and win. (And that would, by
>>the way, be cause for him to be reinstated.)
> Aside from your specific rules, Bud Selig has the authority to
> suspend any player for behaviour that is not in the best interests
> of the game.
Actually, he has no such power with regard to players. The owners
negotiated that away in the 1970s. The commissioner retains that power
solely for gambling-related offenses.
> If Baby Bonds went to court,
Which he wouldn't, because under the Collective Bargaining Agreement, all
grievances go to binding arbitration.
And there's already precedent from the 1980s, when arbitrators overturned
punishments that the commissioner tried to give out, ultra vires. He can't
ignore the agreement negotiated between the players and owners; it's a
legally binding contract.
> then all the steroid
> stuff, not to mention his perjury before Grand Jury, would go on
> public record.
>>>All of Bonds records should be removed from the record books.
>>>McGwire likewise should be suspended indefinitely from MLB and
>>>his records removed as well.
>>Why? Is what McGuire did a violation of the rules of baseball at
>>the time that he did it? Ex post facto rules don't work.
> The name is McGwire. Selig has both the authority and the
> responsibility to act in the best interests of baseball. He can
> change the record book and Bonds, McGwire and Sosa have no say about
> it.
He doesn't have any power over "the record book." He's the head of an
unincorporated association that runs a league of 30 other corporations or
partnerships. Not dictator of the world. Anybody can publish any record
book they want saying anything they want.
>>>The homerun record should be returned to rm.
>>Hmmm. I seem to remember a third player also beating RM's
>>numbers... and he hasn't tested postive for Steroids either. Oh,
>>that's right, its a presumption of guilt, and you must prove that
>>you are innocent in your looney tunes world....
> Sosa is as big a steroid fuck as Bonds. Everybody knows this and
> the only people who will deny it are the people who first denied
> McGwire was a steroid fuck and then denied that Bonds was a steroid
> fuck. In other words, stat fans, who are in love with the stats but
> are blinded as to what is, to the sport fan, absolutely appalling
> behaviour.
Sports fans don't care about steroids. Only fascists do. That's why you
liked Pete Rose and that haircut, right? You're a fascist-lover.
--
David Marc Nieporent nieporen [at] alumni.princeton.edu
Jumping To Conclusions: http://www.oobleck.com/tollbooth
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874058 ] |
Thu, 09 March 2006 19:03 |
|
David M. Nieporent <nieporen [at] alumni.princeton.edu> trolled:
> Ronald Matthews wrote:
> > We call for the immediate and indefiniate suspension and
> > investigation of Baby Bonds. Unless Bonds can show cause why he
> > should be reinstated, that suspension should be made permanent, and
> > should include the HoF.
> I'm always amused when nobodies "call" for things, as if anybody cares.
And just who cares about what amuses you?
> > All of Bonds records should be removed from the record books.
> So your new intellectual hero is Stalin, for airbrushing history?
Must be a really slow day, eh?
> > McGwire likewise should be suspended indefinitely from MLB
> I agree. He should never be allowed to play first base again.
> > and his records removed as well.
> > The homerun record should be returned to rm.
> Who's Maynard?
More importantly, at least to your client: whose account is being
billed for this time spent trolling? Or are we being optimistic
about the size of your client "list?"
Tomorrow morning you are going to look in the mirror, while shaving,
(at the same time, _every_ morning and in the same place, _every_
morning) and you are going to realize, yet again, that you made a
big mistake. But mom's happy.
cordially, as always,
rm
--
How come so many stat fans, and pseudo stat fans, are Jewish?
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874060 ] |
Thu, 09 March 2006 19:46 |
|
David M. Nieporent wrote:
> Ronald Matthews wrote:
> > David the Nationals Fan <davidthenatfan [at] yahoo.com> trolled:
> >>Ronald Matthews wrote:
>
> >>>All of Bonds records should be removed from the record books.
> >>>McGwire likewise should be suspended indefinitely from MLB and
> >>>his records removed as well.
>
> >>Why? Is what McGuire did a violation of the rules of baseball at
> >>the time that he did it? Ex post facto rules don't work.
>
> > The name is McGwire. Selig has both the authority and the
> > responsibility to act in the best interests of baseball. He can
> > change the record book and Bonds, McGwire and Sosa have no say about
> > it.
>
> He doesn't have any power over "the record book." He's the head of an
> unincorporated association that runs a league of 30 other corporations or
> partnerships. Not dictator of the world. Anybody can publish any record
> book they want saying anything they want.
The funny thing is that it would make a mockery of the game if MLB
_did_ refuse to "recognize" certain records. Can you imagine how
ridiculous it would be for them to stop the game and hold a ceremony
once Pujols hit his 62nd home run, with Bud Selig exalting him as the
new "officially recognized" MLB record holder?
The idea of "changing the record books" is absurd on so many different
levels.
--Ray
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874061 ] |
Thu, 09 March 2006 20:02 |
|
David the Nationals Fan wrote:
> Ronald Matthews wrote:
> > All of Bonds records should be removed from the record books.
> > McGwire likewise should be suspended indefinitely from MLB and his
> > records removed as well.
>
> Why? Is what McGuire did a violation of the rules of baseball at the
> time that he did it? Ex post facto rules don't work.
> > The homerun record should be returned to rm.
>
> Hmmm. I seem to remember a third player also beating RM's numbers...
> and he hasn't tested postive for Steroids either. Oh, that's right,
> its a presumption of guilt, and you must prove that you are innocent in
> your looney tunes world....
I wonder why he's so concerned about stats all of a sudden. He should
get his head out of a statbook and watch the game.
--Ray
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874065 ] |
Thu, 09 March 2006 20:20 |
|
David M. Nieporent <nieporen [at] alumni.princeton.edu> trolled:
> Ronald Matthews wrote:
> > Aside from your specific rules, Bud Selig has the authority to
> > suspend any player for behaviour that is not in the best interests
> > of the game.
> Actually, he has no such power with regard to players. The owners
> negotiated that away in the 1970s. The commissioner retains that power
> solely for gambling-related offenses.
You are completely wrong.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/demystifying-the-m lb-constitution-part-1/
Section 3 outlines how the Commissioner responsibilities in regards
to conduct by Major League Clubs, owners, officers, employees or
players that is deemed by the Commissioner to not be in the best
interests of Baseball. It then goes on to outline the punitive
actions that the Commissioner can make. Call this, the Kenny Rogers
provision. The punitive damages can be as little as, a reprimand. It
can be, however, for more stringent. Here are some examples:
* Suspension or removal of any owner, officer, or employee of a
* Major League Club;
*****
* Temporary or permanent ineligibility of a player;
*****
* A fine, not to exceed $2,000,000 in the case of a Major League
* Club, not to exceed $500,000 in the case of an owner, officer
* or employee, and not to exceed $5,000 in the case of a player.
> > If Baby Bonds went to court,
> Which he wouldn't, because under the Collective Bargaining Agreement, all
> grievances go to binding arbitration.
So sorry. But only disputes between player and _club_ go to binding
arbitration. In fact (A)(1)(b) states:
(b) Notwithstanding the definition of set forth in subparagraph (a)
above, shall not mean a complaint which involves action taken with
respect to a Player or Players by the Commissioner involving the
preservation of the integrity of, or the maintenance of public
confidence in, the game of baseball.
Within 30 days of the date of the action taken, such complaint shall
be presented to the Commissioner who promptly shall conduct a
hearing in accordance with the Rules of Procedure attached hereto as
Appendix A. The Commissioner shall render a written decision as soon
as practicable following the conclusion of such hearing. The
Commissioner's decision shall constitute 31 full, final and complete
disposition of such complaint, and shall have the same effect as a
Grievance decision of the Arbitration Panel. In the event a matter
filed as a Grievance in accordance with the procedure hereinafter
provided in Section B gives rise to issues involving the integrity
of, or public confidence in, the game of baseball, the Commissioner
may, at any stage of its processing, order that the matter be
withdrawn from such procedure and thereafter be processed in
accordance with the procedure provided above in this subparagraph
(b). The order of the Commissioner withdrawing such matter shall
constitute a final determination of the procedure to be followed for
the exclusive and complete disposition of such matter, and such
order shall have the same effect as a Grievance decision of the
Arbitration Panel.
> And there's already precedent from the 1980s, when arbitrators
> overturned punishments that the commissioner tried to give out,
> ultra vires. He can't ignore the agreement negotiated between the
> players and owners; it's a legally binding contract.
You don't have a clue, do you?
Once a player is deemed "permantly ineligible" pursuant to the
bylaws and procedures cited above, he is no longer subject to any
MLB grievance process and his only recourse is to the courts.
You really don't think that the lawyers who drew this thing up would
shut themselves out of the money completely, do you? But then, what
does a real estate lawyer know? In fact, what _does_ a real estate
lawyer know?
> > then all the steroid stuff, not to mention his perjury before
> > Grand Jury, would go on public record.
> He doesn't have any power over "the record book." He's the head
> of an unincorporated association that runs a league of 30 other
> corporations or partnerships. Not dictator of the world. Anybody
> can publish any record book they want saying anything they want.
Sure anyone can publish any record book they want. But they can't
put the word "Official" anywhere on the cover without the
Commissioner's approval. Not even GW, would-be World Emperor, has
that kind of power.
> Sports fans don't care about steroids. Only fascists do. That's
> why you liked Pete Rose and that haircut, right? You're a
> fascist-lover.
Oh, so that is why the Bonds story is so big on all the networks and
cable channels? The USA is full of fascists?
I thought I was a racist? But I am really a fascist? Does fascist
include racist? Should I shave what's left of my hair?
Hey, and how come so many stat fans, and pseudo stat fans, are
Jewish?
cordially, as always,
rm
--
How come so many stat fans, and pseudo stat fans, are Jewish?
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874067 ] |
Thu, 09 March 2006 20:34 |
|
Raymond DiPerna <rdiperna [at] nyc.rr.com> trolled:
> The funny thing is that it would make a mockery of the game if MLB
> _did_ refuse to "recognize" certain records. Can you imagine how
> ridiculous it would be for them to stop the game and hold a ceremony
> once Pujols hit his 62nd home run, with Bud Selig exalting him as the
> new "officially recognized" MLB record holder?
Well that's what happens in the Olympics when they throw out the
Gold Medallists who used drugs or broke the rules. Ben Johnson was
no longer the fastest man alive, and Carl Lewis became the fastest
man alive when Johnson was exposed as a steroid user. And of course
Jim Thorpe lost several medals, and the Olympic records were
changed, because he played semi-pro somewhere before the Olympics.
> The idea of "changing the record books" is absurd on so many
> different levels.
Not sure why you say that. Sabermatricians have been changing the
record books with their research for years. I would think that a
pseudo stat fan like yourself would be aware of this.
cordially, as always,
rm
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874068 ] |
Thu, 09 March 2006 20:36 |
|
Raymond DiPerna <rdiperna [at] nyc.rr.com> trolled:
> I wonder why he's so concerned about stats all of a sudden. He should
> get his head out of a statbook and watch the game.
rm has always loved stats. And he has the Bill James collection to
prove it. But the difference between rm and stat fans is that stats
are not the _only_ reason rm follows sport. However, stats are the
_only_ reason that stat fans, and pseudo stat fans like yourself,
follow baseball.
BTW: do you have any idea why a disproportionately large number of
stat fans are Jewish?
cordially, as always,
rm
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874105 ] |
Fri, 10 March 2006 03:54 |
|
Ronald Matthews, a troll, wrote:
> > Sports fans don't care about steroids. Only fascists do. That's
> > why you liked Pete Rose and that haircut, right? You're a
> > fascist-lover.
>
> Oh, so that is why the Bonds story is so big on all the networks and
> cable channels? The USA is full of fascists?
>
> I thought I was a racist? But I am really a fascist? Does fascist
> include racist? Should I shave what's left of my hair?
>
> Hey, and how come so many stat fans, and pseudo stat fans, are
> Jewish?
"There are just *so* many questions about "Maynard" that a mere FAQ
isn't
enough. Such topics can include Maynard's real name (Ronald Matthews)
and his political ideology (strong nazi leanings)."
-- Dan Szymborski, rec.sport.baseball, 1/25/00
Heck, that might make for a nice .sig file.
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874110 ] |
Fri, 10 March 2006 05:46 |
|
In article <ne%Pf.34488$Qh1.141105 [at] news20.bellglobal.com>,
rm [at] biteme.org says...
> David M. Nieporent <nieporen [at] alumni.princeton.edu> trolled:
> > Ronald Matthews wrote:
>
> > > Aside from your specific rules, Bud Selig has the authority to
> > > suspend any player for behaviour that is not in the best interests
> > > of the game.
>
> > Actually, he has no such power with regard to players. The owners
> > negotiated that away in the 1970s. The commissioner retains that power
> > solely for gambling-related offenses.
>
> You are completely wrong.
>
> http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/demystifying-the-m lb-constitution-part-1/
>
> Section 3 outlines how the Commissioner responsibilities in regards
> to conduct by Major League Clubs, owners, officers, employees or
> players that is deemed by the Commissioner to not be in the best
> interests of Baseball. It then goes on to outline the punitive
> actions that the Commissioner can make. Call this, the Kenny Rogers
> provision. The punitive damages can be as little as, a reprimand. It
> can be, however, for more stringent. Here are some examples:
>
> * Suspension or removal of any owner, officer, or employee of a
> * Major League Club;
> *****
> * Temporary or permanent ineligibility of a player;
> *****
> * A fine, not to exceed $2,000,000 in the case of a Major League
> * Club, not to exceed $500,000 in the case of an owner, officer
> * or employee, and not to exceed $5,000 in the case of a player.
This only applies to the situations where the Commissioner is
allowed to apply that best interests clause. Since he can't
here, it's a moot point. It's not Maury Brown's fault that
Canadian prisons don't do a good job teaching their inmates
reading comprehension, Ronald L. Matthews, felon, of London,
Ontario.
--
Dan Szymborski
dan [at] baseballprimerREMOVE.com
"A critic who refuses to attack what is bad is not
a whole-hearted supporter of what is good."
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874111 ] |
Fri, 10 March 2006 05:47 |
|
In article <1141929968.761237.146760
[at] j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, rdiperna [at] nyc.rr.com says...
>
> David M. Nieporent wrote:
> > Ronald Matthews wrote:
> > > David the Nationals Fan <davidthenatfan [at] yahoo.com> trolled:
> > >>Ronald Matthews wrote:
> >
> > >>>All of Bonds records should be removed from the record books.
> > >>>McGwire likewise should be suspended indefinitely from MLB and
> > >>>his records removed as well.
> >
> > >>Why? Is what McGuire did a violation of the rules of baseball at
> > >>the time that he did it? Ex post facto rules don't work.
> >
> > > The name is McGwire. Selig has both the authority and the
> > > responsibility to act in the best interests of baseball. He can
> > > change the record book and Bonds, McGwire and Sosa have no say about
> > > it.
> >
> > He doesn't have any power over "the record book." He's the head of an
> > unincorporated association that runs a league of 30 other corporations or
> > partnerships. Not dictator of the world. Anybody can publish any record
> > book they want saying anything they want.
>
> The funny thing is that it would make a mockery of the game if MLB
> _did_ refuse to "recognize" certain records. Can you imagine how
> ridiculous it would be for them to stop the game and hold a ceremony
> once Pujols hit his 62nd home run, with Bud Selig exalting him as the
> new "officially recognized" MLB record holder?
>
> The idea of "changing the record books" is absurd on so many different
> levels.
It totally works! Bud Selig can use his best interests of
baseball clause to force Sean Forman and Sean Lahman to make the
required changes! And then, if Bud's really charitable, get DMN
that pony he's been angling for the last decade.
--
Dan Szymborski
dan [at] baseballprimerREMOVE.com
"A critic who refuses to attack what is bad is not
a whole-hearted supporter of what is good."
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874123 ] |
Fri, 10 March 2006 07:28 |
|
On Thu, 9 Mar 2006 23:47:32 -0500, Dan Szymborski
<dan [at] baseballprimer.com> gave us:
>In article <1141929968.761237.146760
> [at] j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, rdiperna [at] nyc.rr.com says...
>> The idea of "changing the record books" is absurd on so many different
>> levels.
>It totally works! Bud Selig can use his best interests of
>baseball clause to force Sean Forman and Sean Lahman to make the
>required changes! And then, if Bud's really charitable, get DMN
>that pony he's been angling for the last decade.
He already has Calvin Pickering bridled and a custom made saddle.
What more does he want?
--
Lance
"Was that one of the more gratifying dumps you’ve had?"
Suzy Shuster of ABC catches up with Nebraska Coach Bill
Callahan after he was doused with Gatorade for beating Colorado
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874128 ] |
Fri, 10 March 2006 08:53 |
|
Dan Szymborski <dan [at] baseballprimer.com> trolled:
> rm [at] biteme.org says...
> > David M. Nieporent <nieporen [at] alumni.princeton.edu> trolled:
> > > Ronald Matthews wrote:
> > > > Aside from your specific rules, Bud Selig has the authority to
> > > > suspend any player for behaviour that is not in the best interests
> > > > of the game.
> > > Actually, he has no such power with regard to players. The owners
> > > negotiated that away in the 1970s. The commissioner retains that power
> > > solely for gambling-related offenses.
> >
> > You are completely wrong.
> >
> > http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/demystifying-the-m lb-constitution-part-1/
> >
> > Section 3 outlines how the Commissioner responsibilities in regards
> > to conduct by Major League Clubs, owners, officers, employees or
> > players that is deemed by the Commissioner to not be in the best
> > interests of Baseball. It then goes on to outline the punitive
> > actions that the Commissioner can make. Call this, the Kenny Rogers
> > provision. The punitive damages can be as little as, a reprimand. It
> > can be, however, for more stringent. Here are some examples:
> >
> > * Suspension or removal of any owner, officer, or employee of a
> > * Major League Club;
> > *****
> > * Temporary or permanent ineligibility of a player;
> > *****
> > * A fine, not to exceed $2,000,000 in the case of a Major League
> > * Club, not to exceed $500,000 in the case of an owner, officer
> > * or employee, and not to exceed $5,000 in the case of a player.
> This only applies to the situations where the Commissioner is
> allowed to apply that best interests clause.
Where does it say that? Certainly not in anything I cited. And you
didn't cite anything.
> Since he can't here, it's a moot point.
Where does it say that he can't apply the best interests clause?
> It's not Maury Brown's fault that Canadian prisons don't do a good
> job teaching their inmates reading comprehension, Ronald L.
> Matthews, felon, of London, Ontario.
Gee, that's wonderful. Now do you want to cite some information
that we can read or are you just talking out of your ass?
cordially, as always,
rm
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874129 ] |
Fri, 10 March 2006 08:55 |
|
Dan Szymborski <dan [at] baseballprimer.com> trolled:
> It totally works! Bud Selig can use his best interests of
> baseball clause to force Sean Forman and Sean Lahman to make the
> required changes! And then, if Bud's really charitable, get DMN
> that pony he's been angling for the last decade.
So Sean and Sean are keepers of the Official records?
Who knew?
cordially, even to trolls,
rm
--
How come so many stat fans, and pseudo stat fans, are Jewish?
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874167 ] |
Fri, 10 March 2006 22:11 |
|
Dan Szymborski wrote:
> In article <1141929968.761237.146760
> [at] j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, rdiperna [at] nyc.rr.com says...
> >
> >
> > The idea of "changing the record books" is absurd on so many different
> > levels.
>
> It totally works! Bud Selig can use his best interests of
> baseball clause to force Sean Forman and Sean Lahman to make the
> required changes!
And that's an interesting point. Last time I checked MLB's position
is that Ty Cobb finished up with 4,191 hits.
But more and more people get their information from BB-ref and
that has the correct total. As does retrosheet.
Sean also lists Lajoie as having the highest batting
average in the AL in 1910 and I *know* the AL's position is that
Cobb won the 1910 batting crown.
> And then, if Bud's really charitable, get DMN
> that pony he's been angling for the last decade.
Only after Derek gets his. Fair's fair.
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874176 ] |
Fri, 10 March 2006 22:53 |
|
I'll start with some comments of my own:
I gave this some thought last night. I don't think baseball (nor any
of the national sports) are savable unless we can get a legal answer to
the following question:
Do we, as the nation's sports fans, have a right to know that the games
we watch and pay to see are done under the rules of game, adjudicated
fairly, and its athletes acting in concert with the laws of the land?
I have been skimming the SI article -- got it today. Get it if and
when you can. It's absolutely devastating. If this is "The Truth",
then it is evident to a 10 year-old that Bonds was not only using but
is guilty of a massive amount of perjury and obstruction of justice, as
well as various threat crimes and domestic violences against former
mistress Kimberly Bell.
It also outlines a network of people who are, at the least, accessories
to these crimes, if not committing them themselves.
I plan to go over this book with as fine-toothed a comb as anything I
have ever read. If it is half as bad as what I have already read, I am
sending a copy with a litany of possible criminal charges to the
Attorney General of California, and I may also seek to find the address
of the prosecutor prosecuting Bonds.
I do, however, think that the only way that baseball could be saved is
to prosecute the entire game, Selig on down -- and then basically, with
current American law so that the present athletes and leagues can be
actionable, determine that the Italian standard of the use of steroids
and doping constituting fraud must be the only conclusion which can be
drawn.
Otherwise, I'm not only done with baseball, but with American sport.
Ronald Matthews wrote:
> We call for the immediate and indefiniate suspension and
> investigation of Baby Bonds. Unless Bonds can show cause why he
> should be reinstated, that suspension should be made permanent, and
> should include the HoF.
Who's we, rm? Don't get me wrong -- I'm more than happy to join this
call. I'm all for any supposed "witch hunt" that gets this man out of
the game, out of the Hall, and into a jail cell.
I don't feel Bud Selig has sufficient power to deal with this -- and,
sadly, I believe he may be an accessory to a lot of this.
> All of Bonds records should be removed from the record books.
> McGwire likewise should be suspended indefinitely from MLB and his
> records removed as well.
It gets back to what I've been saying: NO ONE in the Hall from this
era. At least not until it is determined if any clean players exist
who deserve the honor and how their achievements will be put up against
those of the predecessors.
> The homerun record should be returned to rm.
I think you mean Roger Maris -- not yourself.
Mike
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874179 ] |
Fri, 10 March 2006 22:55 |
|
David the Nationals Fan wrote:
> Ronald Matthews wrote:
> > We call for the immediate and indefiniate suspension and
> > investigation of Baby Bonds. Unless Bonds can show cause why he
> > should be reinstated, that suspension should be made permanent, and
> > should include the HoF.
>
> This is, of course, a wet dream. MLB has specific rules and procedures
> for suspending a player for a violation of the steroids policy. And,
> like it or not, it is predicated on a positive test. Bonds has not
> had a positive test, and if MLB tried to do this, Bond would be able to
> go to court and win. (And that would, by the way, be cause for him to
> be reinstated.)
No it's not. The IAAF suspended a couple of runners on the basis of
incontrovertible evidence of steroid use without a positive steroid
test.
There is some discussion that baseball could use this standard to do
the same to Bonds.
> > All of Bonds records should be removed from the record books.
> > McGwire likewise should be suspended indefinitely from MLB and his
> > records removed as well.
>
> Why? Is what McGuire did a violation of the rules of baseball at the
> time that he did it? Ex post facto rules don't work.
No, but in violation of American law.
Seriously, is there no expectation of us that the games being played
are fair and done under American law?
> > The homerun record should be returned to rm.
>
> Hmmm. I seem to remember a third player also beating RM's numbers...
> and he hasn't tested postive for Steroids either. Oh, that's right,
> its a presumption of guilt, and you must prove that you are innocent in
> your looney tunes world....
Sosa will be investigated next; you can be sure of that.
Mike
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874180 ] |
Fri, 10 March 2006 23:00 |
|
Ronald Matthews wrote:
> Aside from your specific rules, Bud Selig has the authority to
> suspend any player for behaviour that is not in the best interests
> of the game. If Baby Bonds went to court, then all the steroid
> stuff, not to mention his perjury before Grand Jury, would go on
> public record.
What's to say that this book would not do the same?
Of course, the real problem with your argument is that the Commissioner
may not only be impotent of any real power to act in the best interests
of baseball in any capacity, he might also be complicit to crimes Bonds
and others have committed, up to a possible accessory charge.
> > Why? Is what McGuire did a violation of the rules of baseball at
> > the time that he did it? Ex post facto rules don't work.
>
> The name is McGwire. Selig has both the authority and the
> responsibility to act in the best interests of baseball. He can
> change the record book and Bonds, McGwire and Sosa have no say about
> it.
Again, I'm not sure he has a "best interests of the game" clause (or
else, at least IMODO, he should terminate all games until roids can be
cleaned out), but, on top of that, he'd probably have to wipe out every
statistic of the last 10 years.
And the next 3 or 4.
> > > The homerun record should be returned to rm.
>
> > Hmmm. I seem to remember a third player also beating RM's
> > numbers... and he hasn't tested postive for Steroids either. Oh,
> > that's right, its a presumption of guilt, and you must prove that
> > you are innocent in your looney tunes world....
>
> Sosa is as big a steroid fuck as Bonds. Everybody knows this and
> the only people who will deny it are the people who first denied
> McGwire was a steroid fuck and then denied that Bonds was a steroid
> fuck. In other words, stat fans, who are in love with the stats but
> are blinded as to what is, to the sport fan, absolutely appalling
> behaviour.
I have to agree with this, but the book establishes that McGwire was
obvious -- and then the spotlight would go to Sosa.
Mike (He's certainly not BALCO, but that just means what other
providers would be out there...)
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874187 ] |
Fri, 10 March 2006 23:40 |
|
|
Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874192 ] |
Fri, 10 March 2006 23:55 |
|
Alice Faber <afaber [at] panix.com> trolled:
> starcade [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> > Do we, as the nation's sports fans, have a right to know that
> > the games we watch and pay to see are done under the rules of
> > game, adjudicated fairly, and its athletes acting in concert
> > with the laws of the land?
> Law-abiding, sure, but with several caveats. First, US law provides for
> "innocent until proven guilty (in a court of law)". Courts have
Rubbish. We expect the athletes to act, prima facie, in concert
with the laws of the land.
> standards for the presentation of evidence. Publishers (and sports
> leagues) don't necessarily, or, at any rate, they have *different*
> standards. Second, lets not be selective. If we're going to ban
> athletes based on innuendo and hearsay concerning the use of
> certain illegal substances, let's be equally draconian toward
> athletes who have been accused of domestic violence or who are in
> arrears on child support payments. Third (sort-of related), given
Using certain illegal substances is cheating. Bud Selig has a duty
to conduct an investigation to see if Bonds consistently cheated.
And if he, and others, consistently cheated, then Selig has a duty
to kick them out. Selig's duty lies in the fact that he is the
protector of the game's integrity.
Wife-beating, no matter how much the bitch deserves it, is not
cheating at baseball.
> the possible absence of courtroom-quality evidence, we're left
> with distinguishing one set of training methods from another. How
> do you distinguish, in a principled way, HGH from protein shakes
> and mega-doses of vitamins, from visualization exercises and
> self-hypnosis, from recovery stints in a hyperbaric chamber, from
> prophylactic use of inhalers to maintain open airways? And, even
> if there *is* a principled distinction there, let's consider that
> professional athletes are simply entertainers. Given that, is
> there a principled distinction between an athlete's HGH (or other
> questionable substance) and an actress' cosmetic surgery?
Those are questions that Selig has to address when he conducts an
investigation. In any case, cosmetic surgery does not give you an
advantage in a sporting event. Cosmetic surgery does not help you
put runs on the board. Steroids do. The issue is not one of doing
illegal substances. The issue is cheating. By doing illegal
substances, Bonds cheated.
> While protecting kids from harming themselves in some way is a laudable
> goal, saying that professional athletes shouldn't use these particular
> illegal substances because they're role models is disingenuous, given
> that unsportsmanlike behavior on the field of play and anti-social
> behavior off the field of play provide equally bad models for kids to
> follow, but are nonetheless tolerated, if grudgingly. And if the issue
> is that they're jeopardizing long-term health in hopes of short-term
> success, well, I'd venture to say that that's inherent in the
> life-style, and that most discussion of this has cause and effect
> reversed; athletes who aspire to major league careers are sacrificing a
> lot more for their career goals than most of the rest of us are willing
> to do. Considering training methods of unknown long-range risk is part
> and parcel of that.
This is all nice and warm and fuzzy. But the issue, which you
ignore, is the fact that Bonds cheated. The games were not decided
honestly because Bonds enhanced his performance in an illegal and
socially unacceptable manner.
And by cheating, Bonds brought the integrity of the game into
question.
cordially, as always,
rm
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874201 ] |
Sat, 11 March 2006 00:42 |
|
In article <1142027607.156590.223120 [at] v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>,
starcade [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>I'll start with some comments of my own:
>
>I gave this some thought last night. I don't think baseball (nor any
>of the national sports) are savable unless we can get a legal answer to
>the following question:
>
>Do we, as the nation's sports fans, have a right to know that the games
>we watch and pay to see are done under the rules of game, adjudicated
>fairly, and its athletes acting in concert with the laws of the land?
No. HTH.
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874202 ] |
Sat, 11 March 2006 00:45 |
|
In article <1142027735.098575.82400 [at] i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
starcade [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>David the Nationals Fan wrote:
>> Ronald Matthews wrote:
>> > We call for the immediate and indefiniate suspension and
>> > investigation of Baby Bonds. Unless Bonds can show cause why he
>> > should be reinstated, that suspension should be made permanent, and
>> > should include the HoF.
>> This is, of course, a wet dream. MLB has specific rules and procedures
>> for suspending a player for a violation of the steroids policy. And,
>> like it or not, it is predicated on a positive test. Bonds has not
>> had a positive test, and if MLB tried to do this, Bond would be able to
>> go to court and win. (And that would, by the way, be cause for him to
>> be reinstated.)
>No it's not. The IAAF suspended a couple of runners on the basis of
>incontrovertible evidence of steroid use without a positive steroid test.
Barry Bonds does not have a contract with the IAAF.
>There is some discussion that baseball could use this standard to do
>the same to Bonds.
The first amendment gives people the right to discuss whatever they want.
It doesn't give them the right to abrogate a signed contract.
>> > All of Bonds records should be removed from the record books.
>> > McGwire likewise should be suspended indefinitely from MLB and his
>> > records removed as well.
>> Why? Is what McGuire did a violation of the rules of baseball at the
>> time that he did it? Ex post facto rules don't work.
>No, but in violation of American law.
>Seriously, is there no expectation of us that the games being played
>are fair and done under American law?
No. Hell, not all the games are even played in the U.S.
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874215 ] |
Sat, 11 March 2006 02:29 |
|
David M. Nieporent <nieporen [at] alumni.princeton.edu> trolled:
> In article <1142027607.156590.223120 [at] v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>,
> starcade [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> >I'll start with some comments of my own:
> >
> >I gave this some thought last night. I don't think baseball (nor any
> >of the national sports) are savable unless we can get a legal answer to
> >the following question:
> >
> >Do we, as the nation's sports fans, have a right to know that the games
> >we watch and pay to see are done under the rules of game, adjudicated
> >fairly, and its athletes acting in concert with the laws of the land?
> No. HTH.
Maybe not a legal right. But a moral right? Certainly.
cordially, as always,
rm
--
How come so many stat fans, and pseudo stat fans, are Jewish?
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874216 ] |
Sat, 11 March 2006 02:34 |
|
David M. Nieporent <nieporen [at] alumni.princeton.edu> trolled:
> starcade [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> >No it's not. The IAAF suspended a couple of runners on the basis of
> >incontrovertible evidence of steroid use without a positive steroid test.
> Barry Bonds does not have a contract with the IAAF.
It's not a matter of contract. Baby Bonds has a contract with the
Giants, not MLB. But MLB has the right to suspend him indefinitely
for conduct that is detrimental to baseball. And they can do that
without a blood test. All they have to do is produce reasonable
evidence.
> >There is some discussion that baseball could use this standard to
> >do the same to Bonds.
> The first amendment gives people the right to discuss whatever
> they want. It doesn't give them the right to abrogate a signed
> contract.
Actually, by acting in disregard for the best interests of the game,
Baby Bonds has broken his contract. Selig has the right to suspend
him indefinitely.
> >No, but in violation of American law. Seriously, is there no
> >expectation of us that the games being played are fair and done
> >under American law?
> No. Hell, not all the games are even played in the U.S.
There certainly is an expectation that the game is played fairly.
It most certainly is not in the best interests of the game to allow
cheating and MLB recognizes this. That is why the Commissioner has
the authority to expell any player who does not compete fairly.
cordially, as always,
rm
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874270 ] |
Sat, 11 March 2006 23:38 |
|
David M. Nieporent wrote:
> >No it's not. The IAAF suspended a couple of runners on the basis of
> >incontrovertible evidence of steroid use without a positive steroid test.
>
> Barry Bonds does not have a contract with the IAAF.
Provides precedent that a sanctioning body can go over and above just
testing. Or would you think that Ontario Smith could have a case
against the NFL too? He didn't test positive either for his one-year
suspension.
> >There is some discussion that baseball could use this standard to do
> >the same to Bonds.
>
> The first amendment gives people the right to discuss whatever they want.
> It doesn't give them the right to abrogate a signed contract.
I'm going to have to find something that my friend sent me -- it's from
the Fay Vincent era that actually discusses this, stating that there
was a policy in place from HIS era.
> >> > All of Bonds records should be removed from the record books.
> >> > McGwire likewise should be suspended indefinitely from MLB and his
> >> > records removed as well.
>
> >> Why? Is what McGuire did a violation of the rules of baseball at the
> >> time that he did it? Ex post facto rules don't work.
>
> >No, but in violation of American law.
> >Seriously, is there no expectation of us that the games being played
> >are fair and done under American law?
>
> No. Hell, not all the games are even played in the U.S.
You do realize that that would make baseball no more legit than
"American Idol" or "Survivor"...
Mike
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874271 ] |
Sat, 11 March 2006 23:40 |
|
Ronald Matthews wrote:
> David M. Nieporent <nieporen [at] alumni.princeton.edu> trolled:
> > starcade [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > >No it's not. The IAAF suspended a couple of runners on the basis of
> > >incontrovertible evidence of steroid use without a positive steroid test.
>
> > Barry Bonds does not have a contract with the IAAF.
>
> It's not a matter of contract. Baby Bonds has a contract with the
> Giants, not MLB. But MLB has the right to suspend him indefinitely
> for conduct that is detrimental to baseball. And they can do that
> without a blood test. All they have to do is produce reasonable
> evidence.
The players' apologists would say otherwise, as might the courts. The
real question might be Selig's complicity in all this, above and beyond
simply incompetence.
> > >There is some discussion that baseball could use this standard to
> > >do the same to Bonds.
>
> > The first amendment gives people the right to discuss whatever
> > they want. It doesn't give them the right to abrogate a signed
> > contract.
>
> Actually, by acting in disregard for the best interests of the game,
> Baby Bonds has broken his contract. Selig has the right to suspend
> him indefinitely.
The question is whether Selig has the "best interests of the game"
clause at his disposal... Does any commissioner of baseball?
> > >No, but in violation of American law. Seriously, is there no
> > >expectation of us that the games being played are fair and done
> > >under American law?
>
> > No. Hell, not all the games are even played in the U.S.
>
> There certainly is an expectation that the game is played fairly.
> It most certainly is not in the best interests of the game to allow
> cheating and MLB recognizes this. That is why the Commissioner has
> the authority to expell any player who does not compete fairly.
We'll see...
Mike
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874272 ] |
Sat, 11 March 2006 23:53 |
|
Alice Faber wrote:
> In article <1142027607.156590.223120 [at] v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>,
> starcade [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > I'll start with some comments of my own:
> >
> > I gave this some thought last night. I don't think baseball (nor any
> > of the national sports) are savable unless we can get a legal answer to
> > the following question:
> >
> > Do we, as the nation's sports fans, have a right to know that the games
> > we watch and pay to see are done under the rules of game, adjudicated
> > fairly, and its athletes acting in concert with the laws of the land?
>
> Rules, check.
>
> Adjudicated fairly: in all four major sports, we've got a long way to go
> for fair adjudication. While the vast majority of questionable (and
> questioned!) calls are arguably correct, far too many are not, and many
> fans perceive it to be the case that the officials are biased, and that
> the league, or, worse, the television broadcasters want a specific team
> to win.
The question is whether we even have the right to expect that this is
not the case. I do believe that some of the leagues are quite rigged,
and that the officials are, at best, incompetent (or worst, on the
take) in the others.
> Law-abiding, sure, but with several caveats. First, US law provides for
> "innocent until proven guilty (in a court of law)". Courts have
> standards for the presentation of evidence. Publishers (and sports
> leagues) don't necessarily, or, at any rate, they have *different*
> standards. Second, lets not be selective. If we're going to ban athletes
> based on innuendo and hearsay concerning the use of certain illegal
> substances, let's be equally draconian toward athletes who have been
> accused of domestic violence or who are in arrears on child support
> payments. Third (sort-of related), given the possible absence of
> courtroom-quality evidence, we're left with distinguishing one set of
> training methods from another. How do you distinguish, in a principled
> way, HGH from protein shakes and mega-doses of vitamins, from
> visualization exercises and self-hypnosis, from recovery stints in a
> hyperbaric chamber, from prophylactic use of inhalers to maintain open
> airways? And, even if there *is* a principled distinction there, let's
> consider that professional athletes are simply entertainers. Given that,
> is there a principled distinction between an athlete's HGH (or other
> questionable substance) and an actress' cosmetic surgery?
You think I would have a problem with a purge of the NBA, based on
reading books like "Out of Bounds"? You might be talking to the wrong
person here. What could start as a "clean up steroids" situation could
blossom into something much larger, as you state.
> While protecting kids from harming themselves in some way is a laudable
> goal, saying that professional athletes shouldn't use these particular
> illegal substances because they're role models is disingenuous, given
> that unsportsmanlike behavior on the field of play and anti-social
> behavior off the field of play provide equally bad models for kids to
> follow, but are nonetheless tolerated, if grudgingly. And if the issue
> is that they're jeopardizing long-term health in hopes of short-term
> success, well, I'd venture to say that that's inherent in the
> life-style, and that most discussion of this has cause and effect
> reversed; athletes who aspire to major league careers are sacrificing a
> lot more for their career goals than most of the rest of us are willing
> to do. Considering training methods of unknown long-range risk is part
> and parcel of that.
It's not just harming themselves either -- I'm left to wonder how many
small-town high-school football players get put in the hospital by
roided-up prospective major players in games across the country.
The message, vis-a-vis steroids, is clear: If you want to be
successful in sports -- REALLY successful -- you're out of your mind
not to even look at steroids.
This MUST change.
Mike
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874273 ] |
Sat, 11 March 2006 23:57 |
|
Ronald Matthews wrote:
> Alice Faber <afaber [at] panix.com> trolled:
> > starcade [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > > Do we, as the nation's sports fans, have a right to know that
> > > the games we watch and pay to see are done under the rules of
> > > game, adjudicated fairly, and its athletes acting in concert
> > > with the laws of the land?
>
> > Law-abiding, sure, but with several caveats. First, US law provides for
> > "innocent until proven guilty (in a court of law)". Courts have
>
> Rubbish. We expect the athletes to act, prima facie, in concert
> with the laws of the land.
I'd like that as a legal opinion, rather than just what we think as
common sense. I'd like to see the Italian standards (Steroids = Fraud)
put into practice with current American law, so we can go after all of
baseball.
> > standards for the presentation of evidence. Publishers (and sports
> > leagues) don't necessarily, or, at any rate, they have *different*
> > standards. Second, lets not be selective. If we're going to ban
> > athletes based on innuendo and hearsay concerning the use of
> > certain illegal substances, let's be equally draconian toward
> > athletes who have been accused of domestic violence or who are in
> > arrears on child support payments. Third (sort-of related), given
>
> Using certain illegal substances is cheating. Bud Selig has a duty
> to conduct an investigation to see if Bonds consistently cheated.
So does the federal government. What I am really concerned with is if
Selig is trying to cover his own complicity with throwing Bonds under
the bus.
> And if he, and others, consistently cheated, then Selig has a duty
> to kick them out. Selig's duty lies in the fact that he is the
> protector of the game's integrity.
Which he has abrogated for so long that one has to wonder if he legally
has any more power as Commissioner than to determine when he wakes in
the morning.
(Everything else going to Don Fehr and Gene Orza and the like.)
> Wife-beating, no matter how much the bitch deserves it, is not
> cheating at baseball.
Irrelevant. See my response to Alice's post. The NBA, if it ever
wants to survive as a top-tier sport, needs to get out of the ghetto
and get with the 21st century, including how its millionaires treat
women.
> > the possible absence of courtroom-quality evidence, we're left
> > with distinguishing one set of training methods from another. How
> > do you distinguish, in a principled way, HGH from protein shakes
> > and mega-doses of vitamins, from visualization exercises and
> > self-hypnosis, from recovery stints in a hyperbaric chamber, from
> > prophylactic use of inhalers to maintain open airways? And, even
> > if there *is* a principled distinction there, let's consider that
> > professional athletes are simply entertainers. Given that, is
> > there a principled distinction between an athlete's HGH (or other
> > questionable substance) and an actress' cosmetic surgery?
>
> Those are questions that Selig has to address when he conducts an
> investigation. In any case, cosmetic surgery does not give you an
> advantage in a sporting event. Cosmetic surgery does not help you
> put runs on the board. Steroids do. The issue is not one of doing
> illegal substances. The issue is cheating. By doing illegal
> substances, Bonds cheated.
And by doing that, he also inflated his salary and the salaries of
others in baseball as well.
One can EASILY see a class-action lawsuit by season-ticket holders of
clearly non-competitive teams, stating steroid-inflated stats mean
steroid-inflated salaries and that the teams cannot compete as a
result.
> This is all nice and warm and fuzzy. But the issue, which you
> ignore, is the fact that Bonds cheated. The games were not decided
> honestly because Bonds enhanced his performance in an illegal and
> socially unacceptable manner.
But it's not JUST Bonds. My working hypothesis is that Bud Selig may
actually be charge-able as an accessory to any crimes committed
vis-a-vis steroids in baseball by Bonds and COUNTLESS others.
Mike
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874274 ] |
Sun, 12 March 2006 00:02 |
|
In article <1142116696.639781.221110 [at] p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
starcade [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>David M. Nieporent wrote:
>> >No it's not. The IAAF suspended a couple of runners on the basis of
>> >incontrovertible evidence of steroid use without a positive steroid test.
>> Barry Bonds does not have a contract with the IAAF.
>Provides precedent that a sanctioning body can go over and above just
>testing. Or would you think that Ontario Smith could have a case
>against the NFL too? He didn't test positive either for his one-year
>suspension.
There is no "sanctioning body." There's just MLB.
I have no idea what the NFL's collective bargaining agreement allows the
NFL commissioner to do to NFL players. We're talking about MLB.
>> >There is some discussion that baseball could use this standard to do
>> >the same to Bonds.
>> The first amendment gives people the right to discuss whatever they want.
>> It doesn't give them the right to abrogate a signed contract.
>I'm going to have to find something that my friend sent me -- it's from
>the Fay Vincent era that actually discusses this, stating that there
>was a policy in place from HIS era.
I like anchovies on my non sequiturs.
>> >> > All of Bonds records should be removed from the record books.
>> >> > McGwire likewise should be suspended indefinitely from MLB and his
>> >> > records removed as well.
>> >> Why? Is what McGuire did a violation of the rules of baseball at the
>> >> time that he did it? Ex post facto rules don't work.
>> >No, but in violation of American law.
>> >Seriously, is there no expectation of us that the games being played
>> >are fair and done under American law?
>> No. Hell, not all the games are even played in the U.S.
>You do realize that that would make baseball no more legit than
>"American Idol" or "Survivor"...
I have no idea what that means.
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874283 ] |
Sun, 12 March 2006 00:29 |
|
starcade [at] yahoo.com trolled:
> The question is whether Selig has the "best interests of the game"
> clause at his disposal... Does any commissioner of baseball?
According to the following website, commenting on Baseball's
Constitution, section 3 and section 4 give Selig precisely that:
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/demystifying-the-m lb-constitution-part-1/
"Section 3 (of the Constitution) outlines how the Commissioner's
responsibilities in regards to conduct by Major League Clubs,
owners, officers, employees or players that is deemed by the
Commissioner to not be in the best interests of Baseball. It then
goes on to outline the punitive actions that the Commissioner can
make. Call this, the "Kenny Rogers" provision. The punitive damages
can be as little as, a reprimandd. It can be, however, for more
stringent. Here are some examples:
* Suspension or removal of any owner, officer, or employee of a
* Major League Club;
* Temporary or permanent ineligibility of a player;
* A fine, not to exceed $2,000,000 in the case of a Major League
* Club, not to exceed $500,000 in the case of an owner, officer
* or employee, and not to exceed $5,000 in the case of a player.
"As far as the integrity of the game, as it relates to the steroid
issue that has been a looming factor, the section on the
Commissioner continues in Section 4 by saying, that nothing in
Section 4 shall limit the Commissioner's authority to act on any
matters that involves the integrity of, or public confidence in, the
national game of Baseball."
The issue wrt to Bonds isn't that he did steroids. The issues wrt
to Bonds is that he has consistently cheated and consistently lied
about it to the fans and everybody else. And while consistently
cheating, he broke the law. And that doesn't even include the
potential perjury charge.
If people like Bonds are allowed to lie and cheat their way to
baseball's most cherished records, then the integrity of the game
has been damaged beyond repair.
> > There certainly is an expectation that the game is played fairly.
> > It most certainly is not in the best interests of the game to allow
> > cheating and MLB recognizes this. That is why the Commissioner has
> > the authority to expell any player who does not compete fairly.
> We'll see...
Certainly we'll see. Selig won't do anything, even though he has
the authority to expel Bonds. Selig won't do anything because not
doing anything is the only thing that Selig does.
cordially, as always,
rm
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874288 ] |
Sun, 12 March 2006 02:11 |
|
starcade [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> It's not just harming themselves either -- I'm left to wonder how many
> small-town high-school football players get put in the hospital by
> roided-up prospective major players in games across the country.
>
> The message, vis-a-vis steroids, is clear: If you want to be
> successful in sports -- REALLY successful -- you're out of your mind
> not to even look at steroids.
>
> This MUST change.
Oh, and the children the children something's gotta be done to protect
the children.
The children is the refuge of the scoundrel.
Here's a hint for anyone wanting to talk reasonable about steroids or
damn well anything else involving adults: leave the goddam children out
of it. I'm not moved the slightest bit by whether THE CHILDREN THE
CHILDREN WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN find it fit to do steroids
because their "heroes" do it, and the parents of steroid-users going up
in front of Congress blaming everyone else for their children's actions
need to be loudly shouted down. It's just all part of the kind of
hysteria that accompanies a witchhunt mentality. Get a fucking grip,
people.
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #874351 ] |
Sun, 12 March 2006 20:16 |
|
starcade [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1142117585.718717.22500 [at] i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> The question is whether we even have the right to expect that this is
> not the case. I do believe that some of the leagues are quite rigged,
> and that the officials are, at best, incompetent (or worst, on the
> take) in the others.
You expect. You believe. What is this, your little faith-based jihad?
> This MUST change.
Or not. Now go away.
--
ivan
|
|
|
| Re: Call for Bonds suspension [message #906228 ] |
Wed, 15 March 2006 02:15 |
|
Ivan Weiss wrote:
> starcade [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1142117585.718717.22500 [at] i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> > The question is whether we even have the right to expect that this is
> > not the case. I do believe that some of the leagues are quite rigged,
> > and that the officials are, at best, incompetent (or worst, on the
> > take) in the others.
>
> You expect. You believe. What is this, your little faith-based jihad?
First off, you sound like a fucking steroid apologist.
Second off, you are comfortable with corporate sports rigged to the
hilt, the athletes on illegal substances?
If so, go fuck yourself, Ivan...
Mike
|
|
|
Gehe zu:
aktuelle Zeit: Thu Jan 8 20:24:48 CET 2009
Insgesamt benötigte Zeit, um die Seite zu erzeugen: 0.41460 Sekunden |
