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Sports » rec.sport.basketball.pro » Ballhogs put cash into NBA's piggy bank
| Ballhogs put cash into NBA's piggy bank [message #808902] |
Wed, 25 January 2006 16:08 |
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http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/columnists/orl-greene2 506jan25,0,86478
..column?coll=orl-sports-col
Here are the top five scorers in the league, including their point averages
and team's records as of Tuesday afternoon:
1. Kobe Bryant, Lakers, 35.9 points, 22-19 record.
2. Allen Iverson, 76ers, 33.4 points, 20-20 record.
3. LeBron James, Cavs, 31.0 points, 21-17 record.
4. Gilbert Arenas, Wizards, 28.4 points, 18-21 record.
5. Tracy McGrady, Rockets, 26.9 points, 14-26 record.
That's five guys averaging a little more than 31 points per game but leading
five mediocre teams to a composite 95-103 record.
That's a long way from getting excited about Bird and Magic, expecting them
to be facing each other when the Celtics and Lakers meet in the finals.
But the NBA won't do anything about it because it can't. Detroit, San
Antonio and Dallas are wonderful teams but not wonderful sellers of product.
That's why the NBA is frantically working to inundate the marketplace with
white Laker jerseys that have "81" on the front and "Kobe" on the back,
along with gold "81" T-shirts. And if you want to own a tape of the entire
Lakers-Raptors game, you can get all 2 hours, 25 minutes and 3 seconds for
$3.95 from the Google Video Store online.
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| Re: Ballhogs put cash into NBA's piggy bank [message #808907 ] |
Wed, 25 January 2006 16:48 |
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s_knight8 wrote:
> http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/columnists/orl-greene2 506jan25,0,86478
> .column?coll=orl-sports-col
>
> Here are the top five scorers in the league, including their point averages
> and team's records as of Tuesday afternoon:
>
> 1. Kobe Bryant, Lakers, 35.9 points, 22-19 record.
>
> 2. Allen Iverson, 76ers, 33.4 points, 20-20 record.
>
> 3. LeBron James, Cavs, 31.0 points, 21-17 record.
>
> 4. Gilbert Arenas, Wizards, 28.4 points, 18-21 record.
>
> 5. Tracy McGrady, Rockets, 26.9 points, 14-26 record.
>
> That's five guys averaging a little more than 31 points per game but leading
> five mediocre teams to a composite 95-103 record.
>
> That's a long way from getting excited about Bird and Magic, expecting them
> to be facing each other when the Celtics and Lakers meet in the finals.
>
> But the NBA won't do anything about it because it can't. Detroit, San
> Antonio and Dallas are wonderful teams but not wonderful sellers of product.
> That's why the NBA is frantically working to inundate the marketplace with
> white Laker jerseys that have "81" on the front and "Kobe" on the back,
> along with gold "81" T-shirts. And if you want to own a tape of the entire
> Lakers-Raptors game, you can get all 2 hours, 25 minutes and 3 seconds for
> $3.95 from the Google Video Store online.
Good point, but there's a chicken-egg problem here. Are the Spurs and
Pistons not "wonderful sellers of product" because they don't have a
30+ point scorer, or because the NBA's marketing/hype machine has not
adjusted from the Bird/Magic/Jordan/Shaq models of the past? Are you
really telling me that professional marketers can't figure out how to
sell the concept of dominant TEAMS? Or how to market guys like Ben
Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli,
or Tim Duncan?--Joe
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| Re: Ballhogs put cash into NBA's piggy bank [message #808919 ] |
Wed, 25 January 2006 20:01 |
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s_knight8 wrote:
> That's five guys averaging a little more than 31 points per game but leading
> five mediocre teams to a composite 95-103 record.
>
> That's a long way from getting excited about Bird and Magic, expecting them
> to be facing each other when the Celtics and Lakers meet in the finals.
>
dont forget that Bird & Magic NEVER LED THE LEAGUE IN SCORING!
- nate
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| Re: Ballhogs put cash into NBA's piggy bank [message #808920 ] |
Wed, 25 January 2006 20:17 |
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<jslater [at] utnet.utoledo.edu> wrote in message
news:1138204082.884073.37360 [at] o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> s_knight8 wrote:
>> http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/columnists/orl-greene2 506jan25,0,86478
>> .column?coll=orl-sports-col
>>
>> Here are the top five scorers in the league, including their point
>> averages
>> and team's records as of Tuesday afternoon:
>>
>> 1. Kobe Bryant, Lakers, 35.9 points, 22-19 record.
>>
>> 2. Allen Iverson, 76ers, 33.4 points, 20-20 record.
>>
>> 3. LeBron James, Cavs, 31.0 points, 21-17 record.
>>
>> 4. Gilbert Arenas, Wizards, 28.4 points, 18-21 record.
>>
>> 5. Tracy McGrady, Rockets, 26.9 points, 14-26 record.
>>
>> That's five guys averaging a little more than 31 points per game but
>> leading
>> five mediocre teams to a composite 95-103 record.
>>
>> That's a long way from getting excited about Bird and Magic, expecting
>> them
>> to be facing each other when the Celtics and Lakers meet in the finals.
>>
>> But the NBA won't do anything about it because it can't. Detroit, San
>> Antonio and Dallas are wonderful teams but not wonderful sellers of
>> product.
>> That's why the NBA is frantically working to inundate the marketplace
>> with
>> white Laker jerseys that have "81" on the front and "Kobe" on the back,
>> along with gold "81" T-shirts. And if you want to own a tape of the
>> entire
>> Lakers-Raptors game, you can get all 2 hours, 25 minutes and 3 seconds
>> for
>> $3.95 from the Google Video Store online.
>
> Good point, but there's a chicken-egg problem here. Are the Spurs and
> Pistons not "wonderful sellers of product" because they don't have a
> 30+ point scorer, or because the NBA's marketing/hype machine has not
> adjusted from the Bird/Magic/Jordan/Shaq models of the past? Are you
> really telling me that professional marketers can't figure out how to
> sell the concept of dominant TEAMS? Or how to market guys like Ben
> Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli,
> or Tim Duncan?--Joe
It could also be that superstardom and winning a championship aren't
necessarily correlated as closely as some people assert they "should" be...
the implication above seems to be that the above players are "playing the
wrong way" or really aren't that good. But one of them has 3 rings and
another Finals appearance, the other has a Finals appearance, and one other
seems destined for many Finals appearances and hopefully rings as well as
he's stinkin 21 years old!
In other words, just because San Antonio and Detroit are uber-dominant right
now doesn't mean that these other guys can't win it all, ever--some have in
the past and almost certainly will in the future.
But more to your point--I just think that for the most part the individuals
on the Spurs and Pistons teams fail to capture the imagination like Kobe,
Iverson, even Shaq. Part of it might be the system, part of it might just
be toiling in obscurity for a long time (Billups), part of it might be a
"quiet" game and lack of charisma (Duncan)... please understand these
aren't knocks on the players because I'd take em on my team anytime, just an
observation as to why they're not as popular as some of the superstars...
brink
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| Re: Ballhogs put cash into NBA's piggy bank [message #808921 ] |
Wed, 25 January 2006 20:40 |
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On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:01:15 -0500, Nate Smith
<greystone [at] net1plus.com> wrote:
>s_knight8 wrote:
>
>> That's five guys averaging a little more than 31 points per game but leading
>> five mediocre teams to a composite 95-103 record.
>>
>> That's a long way from getting excited about Bird and Magic, expecting them
>> to be facing each other when the Celtics and Lakers meet in the finals.
>>
>
>
> dont forget that Bird & Magic NEVER LED THE LEAGUE IN SCORING!
Nor was that their primary concern, IMO. They seemed more
concerned with a winning TEAM and TEAM standings than
individual records.
- Scott Smith: scott [at] sludgereport.org
Sludge Report: http://www.sludgereport.org
Blue States Rising: http://www.bluestaterising.blogspot.com
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| Re: Ballhogs put cash into NBA's piggy bank [message #808924 ] |
Wed, 25 January 2006 21:24 |
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s_knight8 wrote:
> http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/columnists/orl-greene2 506jan25,0,86478
> .column?coll=orl-sports-col
>
> Here are the top five scorers in the league, including their point averages
> and team's records as of Tuesday afternoon:
>
> 1. Kobe Bryant, Lakers, 35.9 points, 22-19 record.
>
> 2. Allen Iverson, 76ers, 33.4 points, 20-20 record.
>
> 3. LeBron James, Cavs, 31.0 points, 21-17 record.
>
> 4. Gilbert Arenas, Wizards, 28.4 points, 18-21 record.
>
> 5. Tracy McGrady, Rockets, 26.9 points, 14-26 record.
McGrady's Rockets record is deceiving. The Rockets are above .500 when
he plays.
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| Re: Ballhogs put cash into NBA's piggy bank [message #808939 ] |
Thu, 26 January 2006 05:26 |
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You are calling the Spurs and the Pistons wonderful teams. Didn't you watch
their game just before the Lakers vs. the Heat.
Were you able to sit through the whole game?
I personally couldn't watch this anti-basketball. No one could score
anything. Was defense that good ? Did both teams have a bad ball day ?
I don't know, but how refreshing it was to watch the second game after this
disaster. A sports competition is first and foremost a show. That is the way
it has been since the ancient Romans and Greeks. If you put on an
unwatchable game, you can not sell it. So, no matter how much praise these 2
top teams get, I'd rather watch Kobe. In the Showtime days, our guys would
put on a good show most of the time, led by the greatest player that ever
dribbled the ball down the floor - that ultimate showman, Magic. Since then,
unskilled draftees and the refs slowly turned a graceful game into wrestling
matches, but once in a while a real basketball pops up out of nowhere -
enjoy a game like this, there will be few and far between, as time goes by.
Mike.
"s_knight8" <s_knight8nospam [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dr8496$hu5 [at] dispatch.concentric.net...
> http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/columnists/orl-greene2 506jan25,0,86478
> .column?coll=orl-sports-col
>
> Here are the top five scorers in the league, including their point
> averages
> and team's records as of Tuesday afternoon:
>
> 1. Kobe Bryant, Lakers, 35.9 points, 22-19 record.
>
> 2. Allen Iverson, 76ers, 33.4 points, 20-20 record.
>
> 3. LeBron James, Cavs, 31.0 points, 21-17 record.
>
> 4. Gilbert Arenas, Wizards, 28.4 points, 18-21 record.
>
> 5. Tracy McGrady, Rockets, 26.9 points, 14-26 record.
>
> That's five guys averaging a little more than 31 points per game but
> leading
> five mediocre teams to a composite 95-103 record.
>
> That's a long way from getting excited about Bird and Magic, expecting
> them
> to be facing each other when the Celtics and Lakers meet in the finals.
>
> But the NBA won't do anything about it because it can't. Detroit, San
> Antonio and Dallas are wonderful teams but not wonderful sellers of
> product.
> That's why the NBA is frantically working to inundate the marketplace with
> white Laker jerseys that have "81" on the front and "Kobe" on the back,
> along with gold "81" T-shirts. And if you want to own a tape of the entire
> Lakers-Raptors game, you can get all 2 hours, 25 minutes and 3 seconds for
> $3.95 from the Google Video Store online.
>
>
>
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| Re: Ballhogs put cash into NBA's piggy bank [message #808941 ] |
Thu, 26 January 2006 11:19 |
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In article <1138220661.946134.98100 [at] z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>
"ikrushlots [at] aol.com" <ikrushlots [at] aol.com> wrote:
>
>s_knight8 wrote:
>> http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/columnists/orl-greene2 506jan25,0,86478
>> .column?coll=orl-sports-col
>>
>> Here are the top five scorers in the league, including their point averages
>> and team's records as of Tuesday afternoon:
>>
>> 1. Kobe Bryant, Lakers, 35.9 points, 22-19 record.
>>
>> 2. Allen Iverson, 76ers, 33.4 points, 20-20 record.
>>
>> 3. LeBron James, Cavs, 31.0 points, 21-17 record.
>>
>> 4. Gilbert Arenas, Wizards, 28.4 points, 18-21 record.
>>
>> 5. Tracy McGrady, Rockets, 26.9 points, 14-26 record.
>
>McGrady's Rockets record is deceiving. The Rockets are above .500 when
>he plays.
Incorrect, they are at the 0.500 as of January 25th, with Tracy in the
line up.
They are 14-14 when he is playing, 0-13 when he is not.
Let's see that when the play teams with winning records.
The won against the Kings (twice), Warriors, Hawks, Celtics, Bulls,
Super Sonics, Bobcats, Trailblazers, Wizards, ...etc, when he was in the
line up.
The only teams with winning record they have won when he was in the
lineup were the Net, Bucks, and Lakers.
They lost to the Raptors by 20 points margin when he was in the lineup.
He is one of the best players, very talented, and one of the few clutch
players out there, but saying that he is unable to carry his team like
others are doing is incorrect at this point.
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| Re: Ballhogs put cash into NBA's piggy bank [message #808980 ] |
Fri, 27 January 2006 16:53 |
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Mike Abkin wrote:
> You are calling the Spurs and the Pistons wonderful teams.
Their records and performance over the past 3 years or so demonstrate
that they are wonderful teams. Unless you have some definition of
"wonderful" that excludes "being the best in the league."
Didn't you watch
> their game just before the Lakers vs. the Heat.
> Were you able to sit through the whole game?
Yes and yes.
> I personally couldn't watch this anti-basketball. No one could score
> anything. Was defense that good ? Did both teams have a bad ball day ?
Then you don't appreciate defense. Both teams have players that are
obviously good scorers, and Detroit's scoring is significantly up this
year, but defense is part of the game too. Realizing that is one of
the things that makes these two teams wonderful.
> I don't know, but how refreshing it was to watch the second game after this
> disaster.
You could also tune in to Harlem Globetrotters games, if that's your
thing.
A sports competition is first and foremost a show. That is the way
> it has been since the ancient Romans and Greeks. If you put on an
> unwatchable game, you can not sell it. So, no matter how much praise these 2
> top teams get, I'd rather watch Kobe. In the Showtime days, our guys would
> put on a good show most of the time, led by the greatest player that ever
> dribbled the ball down the floor - that ultimate showman, Magic.
Oh, I get it. Your team isn't winning anymore, so you must insist that
anybody that plays a different styel must not be "entertaining."
You're not a basketball fan, you're a Lakers fan. That's OK, but let's
not confuse the two.
As to marketing, great defensive teams that play relatively low scoring
games can be marketed in sports. Remember the mid-1980s Chicago
Bears?--Joe
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| Re: Ballhogs put cash into NBA's piggy bank [message #808993 ] |
Fri, 27 January 2006 20:28 |
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<jslater [at] utnet.utoledo.edu> wrote in message
news:1138377226.426401.190780 [at] g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Mike Abkin wrote:
>> You are calling the Spurs and the Pistons wonderful teams.
>
> Their records and performance over the past 3 years or so demonstrate
> that they are wonderful teams. Unless you have some definition of
> "wonderful" that excludes "being the best in the league."
>
> Didn't you watch
>> their game just before the Lakers vs. the Heat.
>> Were you able to sit through the whole game?
>
> Yes and yes.
>
>> I personally couldn't watch this anti-basketball. No one could score
>> anything. Was defense that good ? Did both teams have a bad ball day ?
>
> Then you don't appreciate defense. Both teams have players that are
> obviously good scorers, and Detroit's scoring is significantly up this
> year, but defense is part of the game too. Realizing that is one of
> the things that makes these two teams wonderful.
>
>> I don't know, but how refreshing it was to watch the second game after
>> this
>> disaster.
>
> You could also tune in to Harlem Globetrotters games, if that's your
> thing.
>
> A sports competition is first and foremost a show. That is the way
>> it has been since the ancient Romans and Greeks. If you put on an
>> unwatchable game, you can not sell it. So, no matter how much praise
>> these 2
>> top teams get, I'd rather watch Kobe. In the Showtime days, our guys
>> would
>> put on a good show most of the time, led by the greatest player that ever
>> dribbled the ball down the floor - that ultimate showman, Magic.
>
> Oh, I get it. Your team isn't winning anymore, so you must insist that
> anybody that plays a different styel must not be "entertaining."
> You're not a basketball fan, you're a Lakers fan. That's OK, but let's
> not confuse the two.
>
> As to marketing, great defensive teams that play relatively low scoring
> games can be marketed in sports. Remember the mid-1980s Chicago
> Bears?--Joe
They can be marketed successfully in the NFL, but can they be in the NBA?
I thought the Bad Boys Pistons were the most successful example of this but
they really couldn't hold a candle to Showtime or the Jordan Bulls or even
the Kobe/Shaq Lakers as far as popularity.
It just seems that defense in the NFL is more entertaining to watch than
defense in the NBA for most people--I mean, there's no tackling in the NBA,
what's fun about that? ;-)
This is all of course totally subjective and frankly when I like a team I'm
not that concerned with what other people think of them. Let's face it, no
matter what team we root for, there will always be *more* people who root
against them.
brink
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| Re: Ballhogs put cash into NBA's piggy bank [message #826556 ] |
Mon, 30 January 2006 16:37 |
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brink wrote:
> <jslater [at] utnet.utoledo.edu> wrote in message
> news:1138377226.426401.190780 [at] g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Mike Abkin wrote:
> >> You are calling the Spurs and the Pistons wonderful teams.
> >
> > Their records and performance over the past 3 years or so demonstrate
> > that they are wonderful teams. Unless you have some definition of
> > "wonderful" that excludes "being the best in the league."
> >
> > Didn't you watch
> >> their game just before the Lakers vs. the Heat.
> >> Were you able to sit through the whole game?
> >
> > Yes and yes.
> >
> >> I personally couldn't watch this anti-basketball. No one could score
> >> anything. Was defense that good ? Did both teams have a bad ball day ?
> >
> > Then you don't appreciate defense. Both teams have players that are
> > obviously good scorers, and Detroit's scoring is significantly up this
> > year, but defense is part of the game too. Realizing that is one of
> > the things that makes these two teams wonderful.
> >
> >> I don't know, but how refreshing it was to watch the second game after
> >> this
> >> disaster.
> >
> > You could also tune in to Harlem Globetrotters games, if that's your
> > thing.
> >
> > A sports competition is first and foremost a show. That is the way
> >> it has been since the ancient Romans and Greeks. If you put on an
> >> unwatchable game, you can not sell it. So, no matter how much praise
> >> these 2
> >> top teams get, I'd rather watch Kobe. In the Showtime days, our guys
> >> would
> >> put on a good show most of the time, led by the greatest player that ever
> >> dribbled the ball down the floor - that ultimate showman, Magic.
> >
> > Oh, I get it. Your team isn't winning anymore, so you must insist that
> > anybody that plays a different styel must not be "entertaining."
> > You're not a basketball fan, you're a Lakers fan. That's OK, but let's
> > not confuse the two.
> >
> > As to marketing, great defensive teams that play relatively low scoring
> > games can be marketed in sports. Remember the mid-1980s Chicago
> > Bears?--Joe
>
> They can be marketed successfully in the NFL, but can they be in the NBA?
>
> I thought the Bad Boys Pistons were the most successful example of this but
> they really couldn't hold a candle to Showtime or the Jordan Bulls or even
> the Kobe/Shaq Lakers as far as popularity.
>
> It just seems that defense in the NFL is more entertaining to watch than
> defense in the NBA for most people--I mean, there's no tackling in the NBA,
> what's fun about that? ;-)
>
> This is all of course totally subjective and frankly when I like a team I'm
> not that concerned with what other people think of them. Let's face it, no
> matter what team we root for, there will always be *more* people who root
> against them.
>
> brink
OK, but has anybody noticed that Detroit's offense is significantly
improved, and they are averaging almost 100 points a game (up about 6.5
PPG since last year)?--Joe
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| Re: Ballhogs put cash into NBA's piggy bank [message #826559 ] |
Mon, 30 January 2006 18:21 |
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Saying that nobody wants to watch a defensive team or "that kind of
basketball isn't worth a $50 ticket" is just absurd. Just about every,
if not all, pistons home games are sold out. Detroit certainly does
not have a problem drawing a crowd, and my experience has been that
going to those games are some of the best sporting events I have ever
been to.
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| Re: Ballhogs put cash into NBA's piggy bank [message #826560 ] |
Mon, 30 January 2006 20:35 |
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Peter ML wrote:
> Saying that nobody wants to watch a defensive team or "that kind of
> basketball isn't worth a $50 ticket" is just absurd. Just about every,
> if not all, pistons home games are sold out. Detroit certainly does
> not have a problem drawing a crowd, and my experience has been that
> going to those games are some of the best sporting events I have ever
> been to.
Hey, Detroit scored more points than LA in their matchup yesterday.
That means Detroit is more exciting, right?--Joe
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| Re: Ballhogs put cash into NBA's piggy bank [message #826563 ] |
Tue, 31 January 2006 07:18 |
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"Peter ML" <lamber69 [at] msu.edu> wrote in message
news:1138641678.788224.120610 [at] o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> Saying that nobody wants to watch a defensive team or "that kind of
> basketball isn't worth a $50 ticket" is just absurd. Just about every,
> if not all, pistons home games are sold out. Detroit certainly does
> not have a problem drawing a crowd, and my experience has been that
> going to those games are some of the best sporting events I have ever
> been to.
It's not the home crowds that are the best gauge of whether a team will
"sell" on a broad basis -- the Pistons are wiping the floor with the rest of
the league and the local fans of a team will almost always rally behind a
winner.
I'm talking about he NBA marketing itself beyond Michigan and Toledo... I
don't think the Pistons have quite captured the imagination like the recent
Lakers and Bulls champ teams... they're closer to the Spurs and Rockets
title teams in that regard I think.
And just to make myself perfectly clear, I'm not making any judgments about
the quality of basketball the Pistons are playing. In fact I happen to
think this year's Pistons team is awesome. Part of what's working against
them might be that they're *too* balanced and *too* good. No player seems
to stand out* and they've been beating other teams so thoroughly that it's
kinda taken the drama out of the whole thing. Unless the burgeoning
Motown-Utah rivalry counts for anything...
brink
* by the way, I actually heard one of the color commentators in Sunday's
LAL/DET game say Billups is "far and away the best player on far and away
the best team in the NBA." Billups is good, but he is *not* far and away
their best player...
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| Re: Ballhogs put cash into NBA's piggy bank [message #826564 ] |
Tue, 31 January 2006 07:24 |
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<jslater [at] utnet.utoledo.edu> wrote in message
news:1138649721.966680.60510 [at] g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Peter ML wrote:
>> Saying that nobody wants to watch a defensive team or "that kind of
>> basketball isn't worth a $50 ticket" is just absurd. Just about every,
>> if not all, pistons home games are sold out. Detroit certainly does
>> not have a problem drawing a crowd, and my experience has been that
>> going to those games are some of the best sporting events I have ever
>> been to.
>
> Hey, Detroit scored more points than LA in their matchup yesterday.
> That means Detroit is more exciting, right?--Joe
as a team, heck yeah! But I think Kobe's a more exciting (and better)
player than any individual Pistons player and most fans would seem to agree.
Since the NBA -- and all of sports -- are so largely star-driven, this seems
to put DET at a disadvantage in marketing because people do seem to prefer
following individual stars to teams, overall... Laker Mystique (TM) and
Yankee Tradition (TM) notwithstanding.
Also Detroit seems to be having a hard time shedding its sludgeball
reputation, shoot I even still kinda think of them as a boring grind it out
team even though clearly that's not the case anymore. But I don't watch
that many EC games so I'm just marvelling at their 37-5 record and wondering
if they're going to win the Finals in four games or five.
brink
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