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Sports » rec.sport.basketball.pro » Webber yelled at coaches how he never gets the ball
| Webber yelled at coaches how he never gets the ball [message #808835] |
Mon, 23 January 2006 16:22 |
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http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=2301927&a mp;name=broussard_ch
ris
Now it all makes sense. Now I understand why Allen Iverson told Philly
reporters after Monday's embarrassing 28-point loss to Washington that he
was unsure of his role with the 76ers.
A league source told me Chris Webber went off in the Sixers' locker room
after the demolition by the Wizards. Frustrated by the team's mediocrity,
Webber yelled at coaches and players alike while saying, in essence, he
never gets the ball.
I'm not sure if he named Iverson directly, but I'm told it was clear he was
calling out A.I., who dominates the rock and is averaging a whopping 25.8
shots a game, second only to King Kobe.
Apparently, the episode made Iverson wonder if he's leading the Sixers
correctly. Why else would he question his role, which has been to hoist and
hoist and hoist since he set foot in Philly 10 years ago?
Coach Maurice Cheeks was stunned by A.I.'s assertion, but certainly
understood where it was coming from. That's why he spoke for 27 minutes
after Wednesday's loss to New Jersey about the importance of "sticking
together'' through tough times. Then on Thursday, Cheeks cancelled practice
and instead, in an obvious attempt at bonding, took the team paint-balling.
The irony in this situation is that while A.I. and C-Webb are undeniably
productive, they both have major roles in Philly's struggles. The Sixers are
20-20 for one reason and one reason only: they couldn't guard a statue.
They give up 102.9 points a game and allow opponents to shoot 46 percent. In
other words, you're always hot, always "in the zone'' when playing the
Sixers.
A scout told me this week that Philly's defensive problems begin with A.I.
and end with C-Webb. He said the fact that A.I. applies no pressure
whatsoever when opposing point guards bring the ball up court allows teams
to get into their offense too easily.
Then, C-Webb doesn't front the post, so entry passes down low are pudding.
Teams can also pick-and-roll C-Webb to death because of his mobility
problems. In the middle of the A.I./C-Webb spectrum is Kyle Korver, who gets
toasted nightly by whichever 2- or 3-man Andre Iguodala's not guarding.
For all of C-Webb's complaints about not getting the ball, the Sixers'
offense is not really the problem. Philly is averaging 101.8, second in the
league, on 46 percent shooting.
Still, I (and to be honest, most execs around the league) wonder if you can
win big with A.I. dominating the rock so much. There's no doubt he is
spectacular, arguably the best little man ever next to Isiah (he's ahead of
Tiny in my book and only John Stockton compares).
I said before the season that A.I. probably should let Webber handle it more
(because of his passing ability) and drop to about 24 ppg so Iguodala and
John Salmons can get more involved. I don't know if that would make the
Sixers win more, but a coach told me this week that A.I.'s dominance has
stunted the growth of Iguodala, who just about everyone thinks can be a
star.
If the Sixers are going to have A.I. continue to play as he does, they will
have to go back to the Larry Brown-concept to regain contender status. The
one year the Sixers were legit was when Brown put a bunch of gritty,
hard-nosed defenders, rebounders and spot-up shooters around A.I.
These are the best types of teammates for Iverson. Any player who can really
do things on his own offensively will get frustrated next to A.I. because he
always has the rock. If you can take it to the rack and create on your own,
you won't mesh well with A.I. -- not because of his personality but because
of his game.
That's why none of the so-called "second stars" have panned out in Philly.
Keith Van Horn, Toni Kukoc, Glenn Robinson, Larry Hughes and now C-Webb.
Granted, those guys were either too young, beyond their prime, or better
suited to be third or fourth options. But fact is, none of them played to
their offensive potential in Philly.
If A.I. pulled back a bit offensively, it would allow him to exert more
energy on defense, which would go a long way in solving the Sixers' No. 1
problem.
My guess is that nothing will change in Philly: They'll deny that any rift,
or tension, exists between their stars; A.I. will challenge Kobe for the
scoring and launches-per-game titles; and the Sixers will finish around
..500, 7th in the East.
Then they'll get shellacked by Miami in the first round of the playoffs.
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| Re: Webber yelled at coaches how he never gets the ball [message #808854 ] |
Tue, 24 January 2006 08:09 |
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>
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=2301927&a mp;name=broussard_ch
> Now it all makes sense. Now I understand why Allen Iverson told Philly
> reporters after Monday's embarrassing 28-point loss to Washington that he
> was unsure of his role with the 76ers.
>
> A league source told me Chris Webber went off in the Sixers' locker room
> after the demolition by the Wizards. Frustrated by the team's mediocrity,
> Webber yelled at coaches and players alike while saying, in essence, he
> never gets the ball.
Webber is upset he's not the player he once was and hasn't come to grips
with that yet. He's really nothing better than the 50th to 60th best player
in the league at this stage in his career. He was underrated in his prime
and now he's probably overrated by many that haven't seen him much lately.
> I'm not sure if he named Iverson directly, but I'm told it was clear he
was
> calling out A.I., who dominates the rock and is averaging a whopping 25.8
> shots a game, second only to King Kobe.
Iverson has been shooting near a career high in fg% this year(and a full 5-6
points above his last couple of seasons). He's also cut back on the number
of threes he attempts this year. Iverson putting up 25 shots a game is not
the problem. The Sixers have the 2nd best offense in the league after the
Suns with Iverson as the focal point of the offense.
> Apparently, the episode made Iverson wonder if he's leading the Sixers
> correctly. Why else would he question his role, which has been to hoist
and
> hoist and hoist since he set foot in Philly 10 years ago?
This is the beginning of the unintelligent attack on Iverson that this
"insider" decided to frame the meager facts of the article around. It's
always better to frame crap around a superstar's name so that readers will
want to read it, even if it's not true.
> Coach Maurice Cheeks was stunned by A.I.'s assertion, but certainly
> understood where it was coming from. That's why he spoke for 27 minutes
> after Wednesday's loss to New Jersey about the importance of "sticking
> together'' through tough times. Then on Thursday, Cheeks cancelled
practice
> and instead, in an obvious attempt at bonding, took the team
paint-balling.
>
> The irony in this situation is that while A.I. and C-Webb are undeniably
> productive, they both have major roles in Philly's struggles. The Sixers
are
> 20-20 for one reason and one reason only: they couldn't guard a statue.
>
> They give up 102.9 points a game and allow opponents to shoot 46 percent.
In
> other words, you're always hot, always "in the zone'' when playing the
> Sixers.
>
> A scout told me this week that Philly's defensive problems begin with A.I.
> and end with C-Webb. He said the fact that A.I. applies no pressure
> whatsoever when opposing point guards bring the ball up court allows teams
> to get into their offense too easily.
In his best years Iverson was a vastly underrated defender who really worked
on the defensive side of the ball. He's not as quick as he used to be, but
it's hard to apply pressure when you have no confidence in the defenders
behind you(aside from Iguodala). Larry Brown's system was always to funnel
opposing guards into the middle of the paint where hopefully a shot blocker
waited(Theo Ratliff, Mutumbo, etc). Dalembert is supposed to fill that role
now, but he doesn't anticipate as well as those players which is crucial to
the system. Iverson is the least responsible of the starting five for the
defensive woes this team has...
> Then, C-Webb doesn't front the post, so entry passes down low are pudding.
> Teams can also pick-and-roll C-Webb to death because of his mobility
> problems. In the middle of the A.I./C-Webb spectrum is Kyle Korver, who
gets
> toasted nightly by whichever 2- or 3-man Andre Iguodala's not guarding.
>
> For all of C-Webb's complaints about not getting the ball, the Sixers'
> offense is not really the problem. Philly is averaging 101.8, second in
the
> league, on 46 percent shooting.
>
> Still, I (and to be honest, most execs around the league) wonder if you
can
> win big with A.I. dominating the rock so much. There's no doubt he is
> spectacular, arguably the best little man ever next to Isiah (he's ahead
of
> Tiny in my book and only John Stockton compares).
You can win big when you surround him with better talent than what he's
currently been given. Stockton was teammates with the best power forward of
all time for many years and still never won jack...
> I said before the season that A.I. probably should let Webber handle it
more
> (because of his passing ability) and drop to about 24 ppg so Iguodala and
> John Salmons can get more involved. I don't know if that would make the
> Sixers win more, but a coach told me this week that A.I.'s dominance has
> stunted the growth of Iguodala, who just about everyone thinks can be a
> star.
Iguodala has stunted his own growth. He has no offensive skills aside from
being able to outjump most other players. He can't dribble for his
position, has no post moves, and can't make jumpers from any range. I'm not
even going to discuss the Salmons mention
> If the Sixers are going to have A.I. continue to play as he does, they
will
> have to go back to the Larry Brown-concept to regain contender status. The
> one year the Sixers were legit was when Brown put a bunch of gritty,
> hard-nosed defenders, rebounders and spot-up shooters around A.I.
> These are the best types of teammates for Iverson. Any player who can
really
> do things on his own offensively will get frustrated next to A.I. because
he
> always has the rock. If you can take it to the rack and create on your
own,
> you won't mesh well with A.I. -- not because of his personality but
because
> of his game.
>
> That's why none of the so-called "second stars" have panned out in Philly.
> Keith Van Horn, Toni Kukoc, Glenn Robinson, Larry Hughes and now C-Webb.
> Granted, those guys were either too young, beyond their prime, or better
> suited to be third or fourth options. But fact is, none of them played to
> their offensive potential in Philly.
>
> If A.I. pulled back a bit offensively, it would allow him to exert more
> energy on defense, which would go a long way in solving the Sixers' No. 1
> problem.
How would that help Webber and Korver and Dalembert play better defense?
Apparently Iverson is going to have to start dominating the middle of the
paint on defense according to this guy. He can be the Mini-Bill Russell...
> My guess is that nothing will change in Philly: They'll deny that any
rift,
> or tension, exists between their stars; A.I. will challenge Kobe for the
> scoring and launches-per-game titles; and the Sixers will finish around
> .500, 7th in the East.
>
> Then they'll get shellacked by Miami in the first round of the playoffs.
--
"They tease me now, telling me it was only a dream. But does it matter
whether it was a dream or reality, if the dream made known to me the
truth?" - Dostoevsky
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| Re: Webber yelled at coaches how he never gets the ball [message #808856 ] |
Tue, 24 January 2006 16:01 |
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Chris Zabel wrote:
> >
>
> In his best years Iverson was a vastly underrated defender who really worked
> on the defensive side of the ball.
You must mean when he was playing at Georgetown. he's always been an
overmatched and overrated gambler of a defensive player in the pros.
> He's not as quick as he used to be, but
> it's hard to apply pressure when you have no confidence in the defenders
> behind you(aside from Iguodala).
Yeah, he's only got the leage leader in Blocks playing back there. how
could that inspire confidence?
> Larry Brown's system was always to funnel
> opposing guards into the middle of the paint where hopefully a shot blocker
> waited(Theo Ratliff, Mutumbo, etc). Dalembert is supposed to fill that role
> now, but he doesn't anticipate as well as those players which is crucial to
> the system. Iverson is the least responsible of the starting five for the
> defensive woes this team has...
Please. Remove your rose-colored glasses. Get up off your knees.
>
> You can win big when you surround him with better talent than what he's
> currently been given. Stockton was teammates with the best power forward of
> all time for many years and still never won jack...
>
Iverson's teammates over the years have included:
Derrick Coleman (#1 overall pick, 1990 draft)
Dikembe Mutombo (#4, 1991)
Jim Jackson (#4, 1992)
Clarence Weatherspoon (#9, 1992)
Chris Webber (#1, 1993)
Glenn Robinson (#1, 1994)
Eric Montross (#9, 1994)
Jerry Stackhouse (#3, 1995)
Keith Van Horn (#2, 1997)
Tim Thomas (#7, 1997)
Larry Hughes (#8, 1998)
Andre Iguodala (#9, 2004)
That's 3 #1 overall picks, one of which is on the current roster.
That's a total of 12 top 10 overall picks, 2 of which remain of the
current roster.
How many of these players had their best years as a member of the
Iverson-led 76ers? That's right, only Andre Iguodala, for whom there is
no comparison available, since he's only played here.
How is it possible that a collection of high picks such as these, some
of whom have been legitimate stars in the NBA (Webber, Hughes, BigDog,
Mutombo, Coleman) and some of whom have been highly effective role
players/borderline stars (Stackhouse, Van Horn, Jackson) and the
serviceable Weatherspoon and Thomas have all had demonstrably worse
seasons when playing on a team with Iverson than before and sometimes
after...
Case in point: Clarence Weatherspoon... with the 1995-96 Stackhouse-led
Sixers, Spoon's scoring average: 16.7 (15.6, 18.4, 18.1 in 3 seasons
prior). In 1996-97, after Iverson showed up, Spoon's PPG = 12.2. And it
wasn't only his scoring average. In the same number of minutes, at age
26 (a prime year), Spoon's averages declined across the board. Then he
was let go.
Tim Thomas' numbers shot up as soon as he was removed from the 76ers.
Joe Smith's 30-game stint (and remember, he was supposed to be
Iverson's "best friend" at the time ) led to 10.3 PPG. After being
traded mid-season, his scoring suddenly shot up to 17.3 PPG, and his
other numbers shot up also.
The problem is clearly Iverson himself.
On another note... since I know a lot of fans like to blame Larry Brown
for the decline of the Sixers, I would like to make it clear that I
agree with them. But not because of the popular theory that Larry Brown
stripped the roster of talent or anything like that (see above list),
rather because Brown left and in doing so exposed that Emperor Iverson
has no clothes. It took a Herculean effort for a Hall-of-Fame coach to
win with Iverson. Think about how many teams have won titles with a
coach who gave a less than Herculean effort and who was not of
Hall-of-Fame caliber.
> Iguodala has stunted his own growth. He has no offensive skills aside from
> being able to outjump most other players. He can't dribble for his
> position, has no post moves, and can't make jumpers from any range. I'm not
> even going to discuss the Salmons mention
See above.
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| Re: Webber yelled at coaches how he never gets the ball [message #808981 ] |
Fri, 27 January 2006 17:39 |
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bill_mill wrote:
> Iverson's teammates over the years have included:
Ok, let's look at them. I'm not a big supporter of Iverson, but the
argument about 2nd scorers and such has never seemed very convincing
(just as, similarly, the near-omnipresent argument against Donald
Sterling not giving big contracts to players who clearly were never
worth it). So...
> Derrick Coleman (#1 overall pick, 1990 draft)
Whoop-de-damn-do. Actually Coleman did alright with Brown in his first
stint. The team made it back to the playoffs after a long absence, but
how far would you say any team was going to get with a 30-year old
Coleman? Look at it this way: would you have preferred Shawn Bradley?
> Dikembe Mutombo (#4, 1991)
Went to the finals. Actually trading him again was one of King's
better moves as Mutombo's production crashed right after.
Unfortunately, McCullough's disease occurred.
> Jim Jackson (#4, 1992)
Except for his worthless high-scoring years in Dallas in the early 90s
(after a rookie-year holdout), has been nothing but a stopgap measure
everywhere he's played. And that's exactly what he was for the 76ers.
> Clarence Weatherspoon (#9, 1992)
Spoon's decline in production probably had more to do with Coleman's
arrival bumping him from his PF position, leading to a decrease in
minutes (40pg in 95 to 36 in 97) and being forced more to the
perimeter, where he wasn't that great. Still, where was Spoon better
afterwards?
> Chris Webber (#1, 1993)
Pending. But most indications have shown that Webber's numbers are
fine for this stage of his career. His main setbacks have been from
his inability to stay with his man anymore. As for other places, well,
they have only shown that Webber bitches all the time, openly
ridiculing teammates, and passing the blame to everyone else.
> Glenn Robinson (#1, 1994)
Always more of a cancer (and a recognized one) than Iverson. And
again, did absolutely nothing after finally departing from the team.
> Eric Montross (#9, 1994)
har har
> Jerry Stackhouse (#3, 1995)
There is some argument that can be made here, although the
incompatibility was both ways (both wanted to be 'the man' and were in
their 2nd and rookie years) and poor coaching in the Johnny Davis year.
It's possible that those initial problems may have been worked
through; however, it doesn't really matter since the trade for
Ratliff/Mckie turned out to work very well. And anyway, Stackhouse has
proved in his subsequent career he would never have been a real
difference maker had he stayed. He may have finally found a niche as a
scoring role-player with Dallas.
> Keith Van Horn (#2, 1997)
I actually thought that Van Horn (like Kukoc, who you didn't mention)
was rather underappreciated. He played as well in Philadelphia as he
has anywhere else--good skill set but no defense and screws up
semi-consistently. His problems seemed more with Brown's defense than
Iverson. Was never a legitimate 2nd option since he plays PF but gives
up too much inside defensively. Maybe if he wasn't acquired *for*
Mutombo, or even if McCullough hadn't got sick he might have worked out
better. But his shortcomings, defensively, as an ostensible big-man
were more apparent without playing alongside a low-post center. I don't
think Iverson can really be blamed for not providing that. Again, with
Dallas, may have found a good role as a bench player.
> Tim Thomas (#7, 1997)
Was overpaid with mediocre (at best) production in Milwaukee and New
York. Chicago won't even keep him on their active roster now.
> Larry Hughes (#8, 1998)
Hughes seemed to get along quite well with Iverson but was a victim of
Brown's penchant for not playing young players; and Hughes even played
more than usual for Brown rookies (before this year) even though he was
only a 1-year college player: he was playing 20 minutes a game, so it
wasn't as though he was totally shelved a la Milicic. Still, Hughes
became malcontent. Hughes eventually has come around in the last two
years to be a good player, but keep in mind that even after leaving the
Sixers he had a number of worthless years in Golden State, His
per-minute numbers from his Sixer years remained better than those he
had with GS and are even not too far off the level he achieved last
year. It is unfortunate he couldn't hang with Brown's system.
> Andre Iguodala (#9, 2004)
Seems on track to be a good pairing, though concerns over his offense
are growing. Given that most of his points right now are dunks and
such, Iverson's improved point guard play and increased assist numbers
would seem to indicate that he is doing much to raise Iguodala's game.
>
> That's 3 #1 overall picks, one of which is on the current roster.
> That's a total of 12 top 10 overall picks, 2 of which remain of the
> current roster.
>
> How many of these players had their best years as a member of the
> Iverson-led 76ers? That's right, only Andre Iguodala, for whom there is
> no comparison available, since he's only played here.
>
> How is it possible that a collection of high picks such as these, some
> of whom have been legitimate stars in the NBA (Webber, Hughes, BigDog,
> Mutombo, Coleman) and some of whom have been highly effective role
> players/borderline stars (Stackhouse, Van Horn, Jackson) and the
> serviceable Weatherspoon and Thomas have all had demonstrably worse
> seasons when playing on a team with Iverson than before and sometimes
> after...
>
> Case in point: Clarence Weatherspoon... with the 1995-96 Stackhouse-led
> Sixers, Spoon's scoring average: 16.7 (15.6, 18.4, 18.1 in 3 seasons
> prior). In 1996-97, after Iverson showed up, Spoon's PPG = 12.2. And it
> wasn't only his scoring average. In the same number of minutes, at age
> 26 (a prime year), Spoon's averages declined across the board. Then he
> was let go.
>
> Tim Thomas' numbers shot up as soon as he was removed from the 76ers.
>
> Joe Smith's 30-game stint (and remember, he was supposed to be
> Iverson's "best friend" at the time ) led to 10.3 PPG. After being
> traded mid-season, his scoring suddenly shot up to 17.3 PPG, and his
> other numbers shot up also.
>
> The problem is clearly Iverson himself.
>
> On another note... since I know a lot of fans like to blame Larry Brown
> for the decline of the Sixers, I would like to make it clear that I
> agree with them. But not because of the popular theory that Larry Brown
> stripped the roster of talent or anything like that (see above list),
> rather because Brown left and in doing so exposed that Emperor Iverson
> has no clothes. It took a Herculean effort for a Hall-of-Fame coach to
> win with Iverson. Think about how many teams have won titles with a
> coach who gave a less than Herculean effort and who was not of
> Hall-of-Fame caliber.
>
>
> > Iguodala has stunted his own growth. He has no offensive skills aside from
> > being able to outjump most other players. He can't dribble for his
> > position, has no post moves, and can't make jumpers from any range. I'm not
> > even going to discuss the Salmons mention
>
> See above.
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| Re: Webber yelled at coaches how he never gets the ball [message #808998 ] |
Sat, 28 January 2006 07:43 |
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<covanus [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1138379973.660133.43970 [at] g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Ok, let's look at them. I'm not a big supporter of Iverson, but the
> argument about 2nd scorers and such has never seemed very convincing
> (just as, similarly, the near-omnipresent argument against Donald
> Sterling not giving big contracts to players who clearly were never
> worth it). So...
I snipped the rest of the really good analysis of Iverson's so called 2nd
options. The real problem is that Philly has always had salary cap issues
during the Iverson era, thus limiting who they could get along side him.
They've never been able to sign an impact player as a free agent during his
career due to those issues. And once Brown came in to coach they got good
enough each year to miss the lottery, limiting what they could do through
the draft. Even the Finals team had lots of players who other teams had
passed on initially...
--
"They tease me now, telling me it was only a dream. But does it matter
whether it was a dream or reality, if the dream made known to me the
truth?" - Dostoevsky
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