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Sports » rec.sport.golf » Putting Stroke Question
| Putting Stroke Question [message #1067445] |
Fr, 09 Juni 2006 00:57 |
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I have on again/off again problems with short putts. I will hit them with a
slightly closed clubface and (subconsciously trying to avoid this) I will
over-compensate and open the clubface.
Controlling the putter with my left side, to the point of putting with only
the first finger and thumb of my right hand touching the putter, is helpful.
But it is still a recurring problem.
FWIW, I use a straight back/straight through putting stroke. I honestly
don't know if this problem is some unwanted hand motion entering the stroke,
or some kind of error in my shoulder rocking motion.
Any thoughts/experience on this?
Thanks.
dave
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| Re: Putting Stroke Question [message #1067451 ] |
Fr, 09 Juni 2006 01:21 |
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Dave Lee wrote:
> I have on again/off again problems with short putts. I will hit them with a
> slightly closed clubface and (subconsciously trying to avoid this) I will
> over-compensate and open the clubface.
>
> Controlling the putter with my left side, to the point of putting with only
> the first finger and thumb of my right hand touching the putter, is helpful.
> But it is still a recurring problem.
>
> FWIW, I use a straight back/straight through putting stroke. I honestly
> don't know if this problem is some unwanted hand motion entering the stroke,
> or some kind of error in my shoulder rocking motion.
>
> Any thoughts/experience on this?
>
> Thanks.
>
> dave
>
>
do you breathe in or breathe out during your backstroke? :)
seriously, I don't believe anyone here can give you any constructive
input without seeing your putting stroke. You'll get a lot of responses
though...
--
Dave
You are meant to play the ball as it lies, a fact that may help to touch
on your own objective approach to life. ~Grantland Rice
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| Re: Putting Stroke Question [message #1067461 ] |
Fr, 09 Juni 2006 02:12 |
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"long&left" <nospam [at] diespammers.com> wrote in message
news:ci2ig.188$2_4.135 [at] fe06.lga...
> Dave Lee wrote:
> > I have on again/off again problems with short putts. I will hit them
with a
> > slightly closed clubface and (subconsciously trying to avoid this) I
will
> > over-compensate and open the clubface.
> >
> > Controlling the putter with my left side, to the point of putting with
only
> > the first finger and thumb of my right hand touching the putter, is
helpful.
> > But it is still a recurring problem.
> >
> > FWIW, I use a straight back/straight through putting stroke. I honestly
> > don't know if this problem is some unwanted hand motion entering the
stroke,
> > or some kind of error in my shoulder rocking motion.
> >
> > Any thoughts/experience on this?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > dave
> >
> >
> do you breathe in or breathe out during your backstroke? :)
>
> seriously, I don't believe anyone here can give you any constructive
> input without seeing your putting stroke. You'll get a lot of responses
> though...
> --
> Dave
>snip
Pretty much the case for just about any swing discussions around here. You
just have to work through the discussion and see what (if anything) applies
to your case.
dave
ps. The other day I had a 5' par putt and hit a truly horrible putt (decel,
etc - fortunately not typical of the problem that I'm talking about). It
occurred to me "Crap - that was uglier than a Shaquille O'Neal free throw".
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| Re: Putting Stroke Question [message #1067468 ] |
Fr, 09 Juni 2006 02:22 |
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Absolute best putting advice I ever got was to accelerate through every
putt.
Sounds silly but if your clubface is closed (or open) and you are
decelerating through putt, then everything is exaggerated.
A firm(ly) stroked putt will make a big difference. It is normal to fear
that you will roll it 6' buy the hole but you will be amazed at how often
you don't.
More putts will fall if you take an aggressive line and an aggressive stroke
at the ball.
I found this out after a really bad putting round. I decided that I had
nothing to loose. So I stood up and banged the putts right where I saw the
line. Worked great.
Now if I could just get tee to green in reg.........
Can you relate?.....
Bottom line: trust your eye, and trust your stroke. Don't over analyze, get
up and hit the ball in the %&* [at] ing hole.
"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC [at] ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
news:IX1ig.3302$o4.2439 [at] newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>I have on again/off again problems with short putts. I will hit them with a
> slightly closed clubface and (subconsciously trying to avoid this) I will
> over-compensate and open the clubface.
>
> Controlling the putter with my left side, to the point of putting with
> only
> the first finger and thumb of my right hand touching the putter, is
> helpful.
> But it is still a recurring problem.
>
> FWIW, I use a straight back/straight through putting stroke. I honestly
> don't know if this problem is some unwanted hand motion entering the
> stroke,
> or some kind of error in my shoulder rocking motion.
>
> Any thoughts/experience on this?
>
> Thanks.
>
> dave
>
>
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| Re: Putting Stroke Question [message #1067471 ] |
Fr, 09 Juni 2006 02:28 |
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Dave Lee wrote:
> "long&left" <nospam [at] diespammers.com> wrote in message
> news:ci2ig.188$2_4.135 [at] fe06.lga...
>
>>Dave Lee wrote:
>>
>>>I have on again/off again problems with short putts. I will hit them
>
> with a
>
>>>slightly closed clubface and (subconsciously trying to avoid this) I
>
> will
>
>>>over-compensate and open the clubface.
>>>
>>>Controlling the putter with my left side, to the point of putting with
>
> only
>
>>>the first finger and thumb of my right hand touching the putter, is
>
> helpful.
>
>>>But it is still a recurring problem.
>>>
>>>FWIW, I use a straight back/straight through putting stroke. I honestly
>>>don't know if this problem is some unwanted hand motion entering the
>
> stroke,
>
>>>or some kind of error in my shoulder rocking motion.
>>>
>>>Any thoughts/experience on this?
>>>
>>>Thanks.
>>>
>>>dave
>>>
>>>
>>
>>do you breathe in or breathe out during your backstroke? :)
>>
>>seriously, I don't believe anyone here can give you any constructive
>>input without seeing your putting stroke. You'll get a lot of responses
>>though...
>>--
>>Dave
>>snip
>
>
> Pretty much the case for just about any swing discussions around here. You
> just have to work through the discussion and see what (if anything) applies
> to your case.
>
> dave
>
> ps. The other day I had a 5' par putt and hit a truly horrible putt (decel,
> etc - fortunately not typical of the problem that I'm talking about). It
> occurred to me "Crap - that was uglier than a Shaquille O'Neal free throw".
>
>
and baby, that's Ugly with a capital U :) Putting is like an artform. I
love to putt and practice most everyday. I've been asked several times
to play in big stakes scrambles at no cost to me because I'm a good
putter. People tell me all the time that I putt well. Well, ya know
what? Yesterday I missed 3 or 4 putts inside 2 feet. I 3 putted several
holes. I can count on my fingers and toes how many times I've 3 putted
this year. I also know that it was just one of those days and I'll be
back tomorrow putting the lights out. Putting is 80% mental, the other
20% is in your head :)
oh, and a tip for your short putting woes...don't putt with a hole as a
target. Putt 2 and 3 foot putts with a tee as a target. Great exercise
for narrowing the focus.
--
Dave
You are meant to play the ball as it lies, a fact that may help to touch
on your own objective approach to life. ~Grantland Rice
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| Re: Putting Stroke Question [message #1067480 ] |
Fr, 09 Juni 2006 02:46 |
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"Brian Foster" <brianfoster [at] houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Oa3ig.20593$bk5.9211 [at] tornado.texas.rr.com...
> Absolute best putting advice I ever got was to accelerate through every
> putt.
>
> Sounds silly but if your clubface is closed (or open) and you are
> decelerating through putt, then everything is exaggerated.
>
> A firm(ly) stroked putt will make a big difference. It is normal to fear
> that you will roll it 6' buy the hole but you will be amazed at how often
> you don't.
>
> More putts will fall if you take an aggressive line and an aggressive
stroke
> at the ball.
>
> I found this out after a really bad putting round. I decided that I had
> nothing to loose. So I stood up and banged the putts right where I saw the
> line. Worked great.
>
> Now if I could just get tee to green in reg.........
>
> Can you relate?.....
>
> Bottom line: trust your eye, and trust your stroke. Don't over analyze,
get
> up and hit the ball in the %&* [at] ing hole.
>
>
>
> snip
It isn't obvious to me that deceleration is the case. But I wouldn't rule it
out, either.
Thanks.
dave
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| Re: Putting Stroke Question [message #1067485 ] |
Fr, 09 Juni 2006 03:11 |
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Dave Lee wrote:
> I have on again/off again problems with short putts. I will hit them with a
> slightly closed clubface and (subconsciously trying to avoid this) I will
> over-compensate and open the clubface.
>
> Controlling the putter with my left side, to the point of putting with only
> the first finger and thumb of my right hand touching the putter, is helpful.
> But it is still a recurring problem.
>
> FWIW, I use a straight back/straight through putting stroke. I honestly
> don't know if this problem is some unwanted hand motion entering the stroke,
> or some kind of error in my shoulder rocking motion.
Do you know for a fact (3rd party, or video) that you take it straight
back/straight through? I had a putting lesson a couple of years ago,
and the pro had me putt 5 balls. 4 went to the hole, 1 went pretty far
right. He asked what I thought had happened. I said I pushed the 5th
one. He told me that I hit that one straight, and that the other 4
were pulls. I was taking the club outside the line. Without his set
of eyes, I would never have known it.
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| Re: Putting Stroke Question [message #1067488 ] |
Fr, 09 Juni 2006 03:16 |
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"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1149815485.122670.83250 [at] h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Dave Lee wrote:
> > I have on again/off again problems with short putts. I will hit them
with a
> > slightly closed clubface and (subconsciously trying to avoid this) I
will
> > over-compensate and open the clubface.
> >
> > Controlling the putter with my left side, to the point of putting with
only
> > the first finger and thumb of my right hand touching the putter, is
helpful.
> > But it is still a recurring problem.
> >
> > FWIW, I use a straight back/straight through putting stroke. I honestly
> > don't know if this problem is some unwanted hand motion entering the
stroke,
> > or some kind of error in my shoulder rocking motion.
>
> Do you know for a fact (3rd party, or video) that you take it straight
> back/straight through? I had a putting lesson a couple of years ago,
> and the pro had me putt 5 balls. 4 went to the hole, 1 went pretty far
> right. He asked what I thought had happened. I said I pushed the 5th
> one. He told me that I hit that one straight, and that the other 4
> were pulls. I was taking the club outside the line. Without his set
> of eyes, I would never have known it.
>
I have (more than once) looked at my putting stroke and it is pretty square.
But it might well be worth the time to take my video camera to the practice
green and capture putts until I've pulled several of them - shouldn't take
long :-)
Thanks.
dave
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| Re: Putting Stroke Question [message #1067495 ] |
Fr, 09 Juni 2006 04:08 |
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In article
<1149815485.122670.83250 [at] h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dave Lee wrote:
> > I have on again/off again problems with short putts. I will hit them with a
> > slightly closed clubface and (subconsciously trying to avoid this) I will
> > over-compensate and open the clubface.
> >
> > Controlling the putter with my left side, to the point of putting with only
> > the first finger and thumb of my right hand touching the putter, is helpful.
> > But it is still a recurring problem.
> >
> > FWIW, I use a straight back/straight through putting stroke. I honestly
> > don't know if this problem is some unwanted hand motion entering the stroke,
> > or some kind of error in my shoulder rocking motion.
>
> Do you know for a fact (3rd party, or video) that you take it straight
> back/straight through? I had a putting lesson a couple of years ago,
> and the pro had me putt 5 balls. 4 went to the hole, 1 went pretty far
> right. He asked what I thought had happened. I said I pushed the 5th
> one. He told me that I hit that one straight, and that the other 4
> were pulls. I was taking the club outside the line. Without his set
> of eyes, I would never have known it.
That's good advice. What you think you do may not be what you do.
I used to aim right and pull putts into the hole too. I was
totally unaware of it. Not only that, I was pretty good at it; I
was a good to very good putter with that miserable action. After
some initial pain, I learned to square up and stroke on line.
Helped a lot.
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| Re: Putting Stroke Question [message #1067498 ] |
Fr, 09 Juni 2006 04:14 |
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Hi Dave, no problem, what you need to do is get on a putting green, and
putt until you over come the problem.
Start off your practice routine as if you were playing a game of
croquet, but
above all when putting in golf, focus your eyes on the ball, back of the
cup, ball, in
that order.
Forget the english, straight shots. That'll correct the problem you
mentioned.
You can do it.
Relax (did I say relax?), enjoy every putt as if it was your last one,
one day, it will be.:--)
>mho
>v=83e
>drive 10% less, fill up when have empty at
>the lowest major station (help create a glut)
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| Re: Putting Stroke Question [message #1067501 ] |
Fr, 09 Juni 2006 04:42 |
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The World Wide Wade wrote:
> In article
> <1149815485.122670.83250 [at] h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Dave Lee wrote:
>>
>>>I have on again/off again problems with short putts. I will hit them with a
>>>slightly closed clubface and (subconsciously trying to avoid this) I will
>>>over-compensate and open the clubface.
>>>
>>>Controlling the putter with my left side, to the point of putting with only
>>>the first finger and thumb of my right hand touching the putter, is helpful.
>>>But it is still a recurring problem.
>>>
>>>FWIW, I use a straight back/straight through putting stroke. I honestly
>>>don't know if this problem is some unwanted hand motion entering the stroke,
>>>or some kind of error in my shoulder rocking motion.
>>
>>Do you know for a fact (3rd party, or video) that you take it straight
>>back/straight through? I had a putting lesson a couple of years ago,
>>and the pro had me putt 5 balls. 4 went to the hole, 1 went pretty far
>>right. He asked what I thought had happened. I said I pushed the 5th
>>one. He told me that I hit that one straight, and that the other 4
>>were pulls. I was taking the club outside the line. Without his set
>>of eyes, I would never have known it.
>
>
> That's good advice. What you think you do may not be what you do.
> I used to aim right and pull putts into the hole too. I was
> totally unaware of it. Not only that, I was pretty good at it; I
> was a good to very good putter with that miserable action. After
> some initial pain, I learned to square up and stroke on line.
> Helped a lot.
just out of curiousity, how did you learn to "square up" your putting
stroke? Did you get lessons, have a friend watch your stroke, or use
some sort of device? It's not as easy as it sounds...easy to say, hard
to do.
--
Dave
You are meant to play the ball as it lies, a fact that may help to touch
on your own objective approach to life. ~Grantland Rice
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| Re: Putting Stroke Question [message #1067517 ] |
Fr, 09 Juni 2006 05:39 |
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"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC [at] ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
news:IX1ig.3302$o4.2439 [at] newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>I have on again/off again problems with short putts. I will hit them with a
> slightly closed clubface and (subconsciously trying to avoid this) I will
> over-compensate and open the clubface.
>
> Controlling the putter with my left side, to the point of putting with
> only
> the first finger and thumb of my right hand touching the putter, is
> helpful.
> But it is still a recurring problem.
>
> FWIW, I use a straight back/straight through putting stroke. I honestly
> don't know if this problem is some unwanted hand motion entering the
> stroke,
> or some kind of error in my shoulder rocking motion.
>
> Any thoughts/experience on this?
>
> Thanks.
>
> dave
I have two words for you: The Claw.
Randy
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| Re: Putting Stroke Question [message #1067548 ] |
Fr, 09 Juni 2006 13:17 |
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""R&B"" <noneofyourbusiness [at] all.com> wrote in message
news:feSdnTk6FJTJcBXZnZ2dnUVZ_qudnZ2d [at] giganews.com...
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC [at] ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> news:IX1ig.3302$o4.2439 [at] newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >I have on again/off again problems with short putts. I will hit them with
a
> > slightly closed clubface and (subconsciously trying to avoid this) I
will
> > over-compensate and open the clubface.
> >
> > Controlling the putter with my left side, to the point of putting with
> > only
> > the first finger and thumb of my right hand touching the putter, is
> > helpful.
> > But it is still a recurring problem.
> >
> > FWIW, I use a straight back/straight through putting stroke. I honestly
> > don't know if this problem is some unwanted hand motion entering the
> > stroke,
> > or some kind of error in my shoulder rocking motion.
> >
> > Any thoughts/experience on this?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > dave
>
>
> I have two words for you: The Claw.
>
> Randy
>
>
I am one of the few golfers who actually use "The Claw". I take a claw grip
but curl the last 3 fingers of my right hand under so they don't touch the
club (it started as a drill and I just stuck with it). All those other grips
would more accurately be referred to as "The Claws".
dave
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| Re: Putting Stroke Question [message #1067565 ] |
Fr, 09 Juni 2006 15:58 |
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On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 00:22:06 GMT, "Brian Foster"
<brianfoster [at] houston.rr.com> wrote:
>Absolute best putting advice I ever got was to accelerate through every
>putt.
Every once in a while I catch myself decelerating. But putting is
one area that I can't change effectively on the course for some
reason.
One place I never tried accelerating was when I tap the ball sideways
and hope it only rolls down the steep green to the hole. My pro told
me I was wrong here, and I tried the very tiniest back-swing with an
accelerating tap - and he was right. My control for this tough,
tough shot was better.
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
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| Re: Putting Stroke Question [message #1067595 ] |
Fr, 09 Juni 2006 17:56 |
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"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC [at] ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
news:5Ncig.3712$lf4.102 [at] newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> ""R&B"" <noneofyourbusiness [at] all.com> wrote in message
> news:feSdnTk6FJTJcBXZnZ2dnUVZ_qudnZ2d [at] giganews.com...
>> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC [at] ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
>> news:IX1ig.3302$o4.2439 [at] newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> >I have on again/off again problems with short putts. I will hit them
>> >with
> a
>> > slightly closed clubface and (subconsciously trying to avoid this) I
> will
>> > over-compensate and open the clubface.
>> >
>> > Controlling the putter with my left side, to the point of putting with
>> > only
>> > the first finger and thumb of my right hand touching the putter, is
>> > helpful.
>> > But it is still a recurring problem.
>> >
>> > FWIW, I use a straight back/straight through putting stroke. I honestly
>> > don't know if this problem is some unwanted hand motion entering the
>> > stroke,
>> > or some kind of error in my shoulder rocking motion.
>> >
>> > Any thoughts/experience on this?
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> >
>> > dave
>>
>>
>> I have two words for you: The Claw.
>>
>> Randy
>>
>>
>
> I am one of the few golfers who actually use "The Claw". I take a claw
> grip
> but curl the last 3 fingers of my right hand under so they don't touch the
> club (it started as a drill and I just stuck with it). All those other
> grips
> would more accurately be referred to as "The Claws".
>
> dave
If you're experiencing inconsistency, then it could be that you're letting
your right hand control the putter too much. The whole point of the Claw is
to get the right hand out of the stroke. (That's also the point of
left-hand-low.) I have to admit that in recent years, I've gone back and
forth between a standard reverse-overlap putting grip and The Claw. But
more and more, I've found myself going to the claw. It's starting to feel
more natural to me, and I'm deady accurate with it. But that's just me.
Here's another alternative, and it works with any type of grip. Try letting
BOTH hands be fairly passive, and just rock your shoulders to set the putter
in motion. I sometimes find that this method is exceptionally good to get
my putting stroke back in sync. The only problem I ever experience with it
is that it makes it hard (for me, anyway) to get a feel for distance. YMMV.
Oh, and three more words: Light Grip Pressure.
By the way, if you do actually have a straight back/straight through putting
stroke, you're one of very few on the planet who do. Despite what Dave Pelz
says, it is a patently unnatural stroke, and requires a certain conscious
manipulation of the blade with the hands. In order to keep the putter going
straight back and straight through, you must change the angle of your left
elbow (a very dicey thing to do as it breeds inconsistency), because a
straight line path back from the ball will take the putter head farther from
your body at the top of the back stroke, then to its "normal" distance from
the body at impact, and farther away from the body again in the through
stroke. Plus, you must twist the face closed on the back stroke and twist
it open on the through stroke in order to maintain its square orientation
throughout the path. With all that manipulation, you're adding a whole lot
of movements where there really shouldn't be ANY. I am not a proponent of
the SBST putting stroke as it adds wayyyyyyyy too many variables, and in so
doing, practically begs for inconsistency. The only time a SBST stroke
works effectively, IMHO, is when it's used by a very tall player who bends
over A LOT over his putts, allowing him to deliver more of a pendulum stoke
to the ball. But even then, a true "pendulum" stroke would have the
shoulders over the ball, which would putt the eyes outside the line (which
is not good -- and is worse, actually, than having the eyes INSIDE the
line). Having the eyes directly over the line is best, and to do so, that
places the shoulders fairly well inside the line, meaning a true pendulum is
not physically possible.
Also, if you truly do use a SBST stroke, you should consider a face-balanced
putter, as its type of weight balance works most in harmony with that kind
of stroke.
Truth is, most people use a hybrid type of stroke -- not quite SBST, and not
quite a "swinging gate," the type of stroke that fans open going back,
squares at impact, and closes in the through stroke (for which a
heel-shafted putter's balance works best). For most players, the most
natural stroke is one that stays "square to the path," and the path -- like
on all shots -- comes off the line slightly going back and through -- like
an oval. In other words, it opens very slightly going back and closes very
slightly on the through stroke -- the same as a full stroke, only in
miniature. That's why a "quartering" balance putter (like a Ping Anser or
Cameron Newport) are among the most popular putters -- that "quartering"
balance is most in harmony with that type of stroke. A "quartering" balance
putter is one where, if you balance the shaft on your finger, the club head
will not be either square to or perpendicular to the ground, but rather,
will "quarter" down.
Randy
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| Re: Putting Stroke Question [message #1067609 ] |
Fr, 09 Juni 2006 18:55 |
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"R&B" wrote:
[snip]
> The only time a SBST stroke
> works effectively, IMHO, is when it's used by a very tall player who bends
> over A LOT over his putts, allowing him to deliver more of a pendulum stoke
> to the ball.
In Lefty's various putter variations, he's kinda ended up here. He
uses
a very short putter and bends over alot.
> But even then, a true "pendulum" stroke would have the
> shoulders over the ball, which would putt the eyes outside the line (which
> is not good -- and is worse, actually, than having the eyes INSIDE the
> line).
Can't this be compensated by having the angle of the shaft to the
putter at an appropriate angle?
> Having the eyes directly over the line is best, and to do so, that
> places the shoulders fairly well inside the line, meaning a true pendulum is
> not physically possible.
I'm reminded of the old engineers joke about "no, but I can get
close enough".
I do wonder just how close to "true" one must get to obtain the
benefit.
[snip]
> Truth is, most people use a hybrid type of stroke -- not quite SBST, and not
> quite a "swinging gate," the type of stroke that fans open going back,
> squares at impact, and closes in the through stroke (for which a
> heel-shafted putter's balance works best).
[snip]
Even for those who claim a "pure" SBST I suspect it is no more
"true" than the guys claiming to do a "true" pendulum. As you suggest,
there is just too much manipulation going on to truly achieve
anything quite that "pure".
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| Re: Putting Stroke Question [message #1067691 ] |
Fr, 09 Juni 2006 22:24 |
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<oconnell [at] slr.orl.lmco.com> wrote in message
news:1149872120.824811.234200 [at] g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> "R&B" wrote:
> [snip]
>> The only time a SBST stroke
>> works effectively, IMHO, is when it's used by a very tall player who
>> bends
>> over A LOT over his putts, allowing him to deliver more of a pendulum
>> stoke
>> to the ball.
>
> In Lefty's various putter variations, he's kinda ended up here. He
> uses
> a very short putter and bends over alot.
>
>> But even then, a true "pendulum" stroke would have the
>> shoulders over the ball, which would putt the eyes outside the line
>> (which
>> is not good -- and is worse, actually, than having the eyes INSIDE the
>> line).
>
> Can't this be compensated by having the angle of the shaft to the
> putter at an appropriate angle?
Sure it can. If you want a putter that has a lie angle that's about 14 or
15 degrees flat. But if you had that, then it would no longer be a true
pendulum, now would it?
Randy
>> Having the eyes directly over the line is best, and to do so, that
>> places the shoulders fairly well inside the line, meaning a true pendulum
>> is
>> not physically possible.
>
> I'm reminded of the old engineers joke about "no, but I can get
> close enough".
> I do wonder just how close to "true" one must get to obtain the
> benefit.
>
> [snip]
>> Truth is, most people use a hybrid type of stroke -- not quite SBST, and
>> not
>> quite a "swinging gate," the type of stroke that fans open going back,
>> squares at impact, and closes in the through stroke (for which a
>> heel-shafted putter's balance works best).
> [snip]
>
> Even for those who claim a "pure" SBST I suspect it is no more
> "true" than the guys claiming to do a "true" pendulum. As you suggest,
> there is just too much manipulation going on to truly achieve
> anything quite that "pure".
>
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| Re: Putting Stroke Question [message #1067704 ] |
Fr, 09 Juni 2006 23:10 |
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Comments inserted with a "!!"
dave
""R&B"" <noneofyourbusiness [at] all.com> wrote in message
news:HJOdnWNVXIKGBxTZnZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d [at] giganews.com...
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC [at] ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> news:5Ncig.3712$lf4.102 [at] newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > ""R&B"" <noneofyourbusiness [at] all.com> wrote in message
> > news:feSdnTk6FJTJcBXZnZ2dnUVZ_qudnZ2d [at] giganews.com...
> >> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC [at] ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> >> news:IX1ig.3302$o4.2439 [at] newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >> >I have on again/off again problems with short putts. I will hit them
> >> >with
> > a
> >> > slightly closed clubface and (subconsciously trying to avoid this) I
> > will
> >> > over-compensate and open the clubface.
> >> >
> >> > Controlling the putter with my left side, to the point of putting
with
> >> > only
> >> > the first finger and thumb of my right hand touching the putter, is
> >> > helpful.
> >> > But it is still a recurring problem.
> >> >
> >> > FWIW, I use a straight back/straight through putting stroke. I
honestly
> >> > don't know if this problem is some unwanted hand motion entering the
> >> > stroke,
> >> > or some kind of error in my shoulder rocking motion.
> >> >
> >> > Any thoughts/experience on this?
> >> >
> >> > Thanks.
> >> >
> >> > dave
> >>
> >>
> >> I have two words for you: The Claw.
> >>
> >> Randy
> >>
> >>
> >
> > I am one of the few golfers who actually use "The Claw". I take a claw
> > grip
> > but curl the last 3 fingers of my right hand under so they don't touch
the
> > club (it started as a drill and I just stuck with it). All those other
> > grips
> > would more accurately be referred to as "The Claws".
> >
> > dave
>
> If you're experiencing inconsistency, then it could be that you're letting
> your right hand control the putter too much. The whole point of the Claw
is
> to get the right hand out of the stroke. (That's also the point of
> left-hand-low.) I have to admit that in recent years, I've gone back and
> forth between a standard reverse-overlap putting grip and The Claw. But
> more and more, I've found myself going to the claw. It's starting to feel
> more natural to me, and I'm deady accurate with it. But that's just me.
!! The putting stroke that I previously referenced (only tip of right finger
!! and thumb touching the club (plus LH, of course) was to solve
!! exactly that problem (too much RH). It was helpful, but problems
!! remain, I think.
>
> Here's another alternative, and it works with any type of grip. Try
letting
> BOTH hands be fairly passive, and just rock your shoulders to set the
putter
> in motion. I sometimes find that this method is exceptionally good to get
> my putting stroke back in sync. The only problem I ever experience with
it
> is that it makes it hard (for me, anyway) to get a feel for distance.
YMMV.
>
> Oh, and three more words: Light Grip Pressure.
!! At this point I've pretty much decided that it may well be a deceleration
!! problem (discussed elsewhere in this thread
>
> By the way, if you do actually have a straight back/straight through
putting
> stroke, you're one of very few on the planet who do. Despite what Dave
Pelz
> says, it is a patently unnatural stroke, and requires a certain conscious
> manipulation of the blade with the hands. In order to keep the putter
going
> straight back and straight through, you must change the angle of your left
> elbow (a very dicey thing to do as it breeds inconsistency), because a
> straight line path back from the ball will take the putter head farther
from
> your body at the top of the back stroke, then to its "normal" distance
from
> the body at impact, and farther away from the body again in the through
> stroke. Plus, you must twist the face closed on the back stroke and twist
> it open on the through stroke in order to maintain its square orientation
> throughout the path. With all that manipulation, you're adding a whole
lot
> of movements where there really shouldn't be ANY. I am not a proponent of
> the SBST putting stroke as it adds wayyyyyyyy too many variables, and in
so
> doing, practically begs for inconsistency. The only time a SBST stroke
> works effectively, IMHO, is when it's used by a very tall player who bends
> over A LOT over his putts, allowing him to deliver more of a pendulum
stoke
> to the ball. But even then, a true "pendulum" stroke would have the
> shoulders over the ball, which would putt the eyes outside the line (which
> is not good -- and is worse, actually, than having the eyes INSIDE the
> line). Having the eyes directly over the line is best, and to do so, that
> places the shoulders fairly well inside the line, meaning a true pendulum
is
> not physically possible.
>
> Also, if you truly do use a SBST stroke, you should consider a
face-balanced
> putter, as its type of weight balance works most in harmony with that kind
> of stroke.
>
> Truth is, most people use a hybrid type of stroke -- not quite SBST, and
not
> quite a "swinging gate," the type of stroke that fans open going back,
> squares at impact, and closes in the through stroke (for which a
> heel-shafted putter's balance works best). For most players, the most
> natural stroke is one that stays "square to the path," and the path --
like
> on all shots -- comes off the line slightly going back and through -- like
> an oval. In other words, it opens very slightly going back and closes
very
> slightly on the through stroke -- the same as a full stroke, only in
> miniature. That's why a "quartering" balance putter (like a Ping Anser or
> Cameron Newport) are among the most popular putters -- that "quartering"
> balance is most in harmony with that type of stroke. A "quartering"
balance
> putter is one where, if you balance the shaft on your finger, the club
head
> will not be either square to or perpendicular to the ground, but rather,
> will "quarter" down.
!! I agree that, despitewhat Pelz says, a true SBST stroke is unnatural. I
!! would only claim it for short putts (say 8' or less). And at this point
!! if my intermittent short putting problem is not a deceleration
!! problem, then I would be suspicious that the real problem is
!! hands trying to compensate for 'imperfect' shoulder rocking motion.
!! Thanks for the comments.
dave
> Randy
>
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| Re: Putting Stroke Question [message #1067705 ] |
Fr, 09 Juni 2006 23:10 |
|
"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC [at] ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
news:gx3ig.3449$lf4.1558 [at] newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Brian Foster" <brianfoster [at] houston.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:Oa3ig.20593$bk5.9211 [at] tornado.texas.rr.com...
> > Absolute best putting advice I ever got was to accelerate through every
> > putt.
> >
> > Sounds silly but if your clubface is closed (or open) and you are
> > decelerating through putt, then everything is exaggerated.
> >
> > A firm(ly) stroked putt will make a big difference. It is normal to fear
> > that you will roll it 6' buy the hole but you will be amazed at how
often
> > you don't.
> >
> > More putts will fall if you take an aggressive line and an aggressive
> stroke
> > at the ball.
> >
> > I found this out after a really bad putting round. I decided that I had
> > nothing to loose. So I stood up and banged the putts right where I saw
the
> > line. Worked great.
> >
> > Now if I could just get tee to green in reg.........
> >
> > Can you relate?.....
> >
> > Bottom line: trust your eye, and trust your stroke. Don't over analyze,
> get
> > up and hit the ball in the %&* [at] ing hole.
> >
> >
> >
> > snip
>
> It isn't obvious to me that deceleration is the case. But I wouldn't rule
it
> out, either.
>
> Thanks.
>
> dave
Had an interesting experience on the course today. The course that we were
playing had just been punched and sanded. So the greens were very bouncy and
VERY slow. I consciously took the same length backswing (on short putts) as
is normal for me, but hit the ball harder. I had the best putting day
(despite the greens) that I've had this year.
Interesting.
dave
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| Re: Putting Stroke Question [message #1067745 ] |
Sa, 10 Juni 2006 01:25 |
|
Dave Lee wrote:
(snip)
>
>
> Had an interesting experience on the course today. The course that we were
> playing had just been punched and sanded. So the greens were very bouncy and
> VERY slow. I consciously took the same length backswing (on short putts) as
> is normal for me, but hit the ball harder. I had the best putting day
> (despite the greens) that I've had this year.
>
> Interesting.
>
> dave
>
>
Two of my three PB's of 74 were made when our greens were punched and
sanded. The sand takes a lot of the break out of putts so I'd just hit
it hard at the hole. I wish they'd punch and sand them more often :)
--
Dave
You are meant to play the ball as it lies, a fact that may help to touch
on your own objective approach to life. ~Grantland Rice
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| Re: Putting Stroke Question [message #1067751 ] |
Sa, 10 Juni 2006 01:58 |
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Dave Lee wrote:
> "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002 [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1149815485.122670.83250 [at] h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Dave Lee wrote:
> > > I have on again/off again problems with short putts. I will hit them
> with a
> > > slightly closed clubface and (subconsciously trying to avoid this) I
> will
> > > over-compensate and open the clubface.
> > >
> > > Controlling the putter with my left side, to the point of putting with
> only
> > > the first finger and thumb of my right hand touching the putter, is
> helpful.
> > > But it is still a recurring problem.
> > >
> > > FWIW, I use a straight back/straight through putting stroke. I honestly
> > > don't know if this problem is some unwanted hand motion entering the
> stroke,
> > > or some kind of error in my shoulder rocking motion.
> >
> > Do you know for a fact (3rd party, or video) that you take it straight
> > back/straight through? I had a putting lesson a couple of years ago,
> > and the pro had me putt 5 balls. 4 went to the hole, 1 went pretty far
> > right. He asked what I thought had happened. I said I pushed the 5th
> > one. He told me that I hit that one straight, and that the other 4
> > were pulls. I was taking the club outside the line. Without his set
> > of eyes, I would never have known it.
> >
>
> I have (more than once) looked at my putting stroke and it is pretty square.
> But it might well be worth the time to take my video camera to the practice
> green and capture putts until I've pulled several of them - shouldn't take
> long :-)
There's no need to even go to the putting green, just do it in your
living room.
Another thing that helps me when playing is putting a straight line on
the ball to line putts up with. I know when I hit a putt square
because the line rolls over on itself. If I miss a putt when that
happens, I misread the putt. If the line turns into a blur I know I
didn't hit it square. It's hard to hit it perfectly square.
Now, what the hell is going on when I mishit the putt and it goes
in!?!?!
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| Re: Putting Stroke Question [message #1067757 ] |
Sa, 10 Juni 2006 02:43 |
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Larry Bud wrote:
(snip)
> Now, what the hell is going on when I mishit the putt and it goes
> in!?!?!
>
luck, the greatest thing about golf!
:)
--
Dave
You are meant to play the ball as it lies, a fact that may help to touch
on your own objective approach to life. ~Grantland Rice
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| Re: Putting Stroke Question [message #1067788 ] |
Sa, 10 Juni 2006 05:17 |
|
In article <Zd5ig.507$Wk3.20 [at] fe05.lga>,
long&left <nospam [at] diespammers.com> wrote:
> The World Wide Wade wrote:
> > In article
> > <1149815485.122670.83250 [at] h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Dave Lee wrote:
> >>
> >>>I have on again/off again problems with short putts. I will hit them with
> >>>a
> >>>slightly closed clubface and (subconsciously trying to avoid this) I will
> >>>over-compensate and open the clubface.
> >>>
> >>>Controlling the putter with my left side, to the point of putting with
> >>>only
> >>>the first finger and thumb of my right hand touching the putter, is
> >>>helpful.
> >>>But it is still a recurring problem.
> >>>
> >>>FWIW, I use a straight back/straight through putting stroke. I honestly
> >>>don't know if this problem is some unwanted hand motion entering the
> >>>stroke,
> >>>or some kind of error in my shoulder rocking motion.
> >>
> >>Do you know for a fact (3rd party, or video) that you take it straight
> >>back/straight through? I had a putting lesson a couple of years ago,
> >>and the pro had me putt 5 balls. 4 went to the hole, 1 went pretty far
> >>right. He asked what I thought had happened. I said I pushed the 5th
> >>one. He told me that I hit that one straight, and that the other 4
> >>were pulls. I was taking the club outside the line. Without his set
> >>of eyes, I would never have known it.
> >
> >
> > That's good advice. What you think you do may not be what you do.
> > I used to aim right and pull putts into the hole too. I was
> > totally unaware of it. Not only that, I was pretty good at it; I
> > was a good to very good putter with that miserable action. After
> > some initial pain, I learned to square up and stroke on line.
> > Helped a lot.
>
> just out of curiousity, how did you learn to "square up" your putting
> stroke? Did you get lessons, have a friend watch your stroke, or use
> some sort of device? It's not as easy as it sounds...easy to say, hard
> to do.
Worked on it in the living room for one. You can put a phone book
down, aim it, and stroke right along it. I was on the high school
golf team and on the putting green I was constantly asking
teammates where my putter, shoulders and feet were aimed, how my
stroke looked to them etc. (It was a teammate who pointed out the
flaw, as only a teenage bud can do: god, your stroke sucks.)
Lessons with a pro would have been better, but I was young and
the small amount of money I had was going to things like Led
Zeppelin II.
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