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Sports » rec.sport.football.college » according to Richard Cohen's ..
| Re: according to Richard Cohen's .. [message #1098418 ] |
Sat, 22 July 2006 18:42 |
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On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 15:37:59 -0000, rich hammett
<bubbarichau [at] warmmail.com> wrote:
>Minun olisi pitänyt tietää, olisi pitänyt tietää,
>olisi pitänyt tietää KUKA SINÄ OLET, Charlie Board:
>> The Grand Beckoning wrote:
>
>>> Israel will tolerate a Palestinian state.
>
>> No, they won't. There is no Palrestinian state
>> right now precisely because not only will Israel
>> not tolerate one but they will not (and never
>> will) allow one to exist. Even their most ardent
>> apologists often give that away when they say that
>> the Palestinians will never get an offer as generous
>> as the one they turned down in 2000 - an offer
>> that fell far, far short of allowing a Palestinan
>> state.
>
>The last two offers have included clear paths to
>statehood. If Israel had peace, there would be
>a Palestinian Arab state within months. Some on the
>right would oppose it, but Israelis have voted in
>peace governments at the slightest sign of hope in
>negotiations.
>
>Israel is the most liberal state in the region,
>especially for its Arab citizens. Many other
>current states were established or enlarged in
>FAR more questionable ways than Israel, and yet
>are fully accepted by all parties. The only reason
>any grievance still remains against Israel is that
>the Arab states and Iran find it convenient to use
>Israel as a distraction, or perhaps in Iran's case
>as a lever to re-establish their long-lapsed hegemony
>over the Arab Islamic world.
>
>Israel's governments have certainly not been perfect,
>but in general have been more moral than any other
>government in any sort of comparable situation, and
>I would especially contrast them favorably to the
>US government, which tends to retaliate and lash
>out in a very populist manner in response to any
>stress.
>
>I don't deny that many palestinian arabs have valid
>grievances, although I don't think that most of them
>are ultimately Israel's responsibility, and I think
>that they have rejected many excellent opportunities
>to resolve their grievances. But they are tightly
>wedded to their myths, now, even more than the American
>and Israeli right is wedded to their own myths of
>the establishment of Israel.
>
>rich
I think the bottom line on this is not as much the Arabs/Muslims other
ulterior motives as it is wanting all of Israel themselves and simply
not accepting anything less. Killing all the Jews would be the icing
on the cake. Given that rather obvious and often-proven observation,
it is hard to fathom why any civilized person would support them.
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| Re: according to Richard Cohen's .. [message #1098425 ] |
Sat, 22 July 2006 19:31 |
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Minun olisi pitänyt tietää, olisi pitänyt tietää,
olisi pitänyt tietää KUKA SINÄ OLET, The Grand Beckoning:
> On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 15:16:13 -0000, rich hammett
> <bubbarichau [at] warmmail.com> wrote:
>>Minun olisi pitänyt tietää, olisi pitänyt tietää,
>>olisi pitänyt tietää KUKA SINÄ OLET, Tom Enright:
>>
>>> aborgman [at] redshark.goodshow.net wrote:
>>
>>>> Tom Enright <freddy_hayek [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> > The majority of Arabs in the Middle East support terrorism, at least
>>>> > if you believe the polls.
>>>> >
>>>> > The Colonists did not engage in terrorism.
>>
>>>> They didn't? Lets hear the convoluted definition of terrorism
>>>> you come up with to justify that statement.
>>
>>> Not necessary. The Colonists did not target civilians.
>>
>>Dude. Your ignorance is bordering on pathetic, if it's not
>>malicious.
> " You and your sad cohorts are in the sick position of actually having
> to exaggerate and twist statistics about how bad
> Saddam was, just so you can say BUT IT'S BETTER THAN
> UNDER SADDAM!!11!!!11!!"
Yes, people other than Tom are ignorant. Some people think that
Saddam killed tens of thousands of Iraqis every year. Aren't
they stupid?
rich
--
-to reply, it's hot not warm
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett
/ The Bill Clinton of RSFC
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| Re: according to Richard Cohen's .. [message #1098450 ] |
Sat, 22 July 2006 19:59 |
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The Grand Beckoning wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 03:13:33 GMT, Charlie Board
> <charlieDIESPAMMERSboard [at] nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>The Grand Beckoning wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Israel will tolerate a Palestinian state.
>>
>>No, they won't. There is no Palrestinian state
>>right now precisely because not only will Israel
>>not tolerate one but they will not (and never
>>will) allow one to exist. Even their most ardent
>>apologists often give that away when they say that
>>the Palestinians will never get an offer as generous
>>as the one they turned down in 2000 - an offer
>>that fell far, far short of allowing a Palestinan
>>state.
>>
>
>
> You are misinformed. Both 1998 and 2006 offered just that--statehood.
No, I'm not. Neither offer came remotely close to offering
a sovereign state in any way shape or form.
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| Re: according to Richard Cohen's .. [message #1098461 ] |
Sat, 22 July 2006 20:28 |
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rich hammett wrote:
> Minun olisi pitänyt tietää, olisi pitänyt tietää,
> olisi pitänyt tietää KUKA SINÄ OLET, Charlie Board:
>
>>The Grand Beckoning wrote:
>
>
>>>Israel will tolerate a Palestinian state.
>>
>
>>No, they won't. There is no Palrestinian state
>>right now precisely because not only will Israel
>>not tolerate one but they will not (and never
>>will) allow one to exist. Even their most ardent
>>apologists often give that away when they say that
>>the Palestinians will never get an offer as generous
>>as the one they turned down in 2000 - an offer
>>that fell far, far short of allowing a Palestinan
>>state.
>
>
> The last two offers have included clear paths to
> statehood.
No they haven't. Edward Said had it right:
"Essentially, the peace process has involved the Palestinian leadership
in accepting Israeli terms: A small redeployment of Israeli troops; the
settlements continue; Jerusalem is still under Israeli sovereignty and
settlement; the borders and the water are controlled by Israel; the
exits and entrances are controlled by Israel; security is controlled by
Israel. What the Americans and Israelis were doing was to get
Palestinian consent to this repackaging of the occupation."
No border control, no free movement of citizens within their "state",
no water, no military or security forces, etc, etc. That's not
a soveriegn state. If the Palestinians were to make the same
kind of offer to the Israelis it would (properly) be universally seen as
evidence of their unnwillingness to even recognize the right
of an Israeli state to exist.
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| Re: according to Richard Cohen's .. [message #1098468 ] |
Sat, 22 July 2006 20:49 |
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On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 17:59:02 GMT, Charlie Board
<charlieDIESPAMMERSboard [at] nc.rr.com> wrote:
>The Grand Beckoning wrote:
>> On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 03:13:33 GMT, Charlie Board
>> <charlieDIESPAMMERSboard [at] nc.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>>The Grand Beckoning wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Israel will tolerate a Palestinian state.
>>>
>>>No, they won't. There is no Palrestinian state
>>>right now precisely because not only will Israel
>>>not tolerate one but they will not (and never
>>>will) allow one to exist. Even their most ardent
>>>apologists often give that away when they say that
>>>the Palestinians will never get an offer as generous
>>>as the one they turned down in 2000 - an offer
>>>that fell far, far short of allowing a Palestinan
>>>state.
>>>
>>
>>
>> You are misinformed. Both 1998 and 2006 offered just that--statehood.
>
>
>No, I'm not. Neither offer came remotely close to offering
>a sovereign state in any way shape or form.
If you are so sure, then provide a cite.
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| Re: according to Richard Cohen's .. [message #1098469 ] |
Sat, 22 July 2006 20:48 |
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On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 17:31:18 -0000, rich hammett
<bubbarichau [at] warmmail.com> wrote:
>Minun olisi pitänyt tietää, olisi pitänyt tietää,
>olisi pitänyt tietää KUKA SINÄ OLET, The Grand Beckoning:
>> On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 15:16:13 -0000, rich hammett
>> <bubbarichau [at] warmmail.com> wrote:
>>>Minun olisi pitänyt tietää, olisi pitänyt tietää,
>>>olisi pitänyt tietää KUKA SINÄ OLET, Tom Enright:
>>>
>>>> aborgman [at] redshark.goodshow.net wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Tom Enright <freddy_hayek [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> > The majority of Arabs in the Middle East support terrorism, at least
>>>>> > if you believe the polls.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The Colonists did not engage in terrorism.
>>>
>>>>> They didn't? Lets hear the convoluted definition of terrorism
>>>>> you come up with to justify that statement.
>>>
>>>> Not necessary. The Colonists did not target civilians.
>>>
>>>Dude. Your ignorance is bordering on pathetic, if it's not
>>>malicious.
>
>> " You and your sad cohorts are in the sick position of actually having
>> to exaggerate and twist statistics about how bad
>> Saddam was, just so you can say BUT IT'S BETTER THAN
>> UNDER SADDAM!!11!!!11!!"
>
>Yes, people other than Tom are ignorant. Some people think that
>Saddam killed tens of thousands of Iraqis every year. Aren't
>they stupid?
>
>rich
No, you are:
* In 1988, the Hussein regime began a campaign of extermination
against the Kurdish people living in Northern Iraq. This is known as
the Anfal campaign. The attacks resulted in the death of at least
50,000 (some reports estimate as many as 100,000 people), many of them
women and children. A team of Human Rights Watch investigators
determined, after analyzing eighteen tons of captured Iraqi documents,
testing soil samples and carrying out interviews with more than 350
witnesses, that the attacks on the Kurdish people were characterized
by gross violations of human rights, including mass executions and
disappearances of many tens of thousands of noncombatants, widespread
use of chemical weapons including Sarin, mustard gas and nerve agents
that killed thousands, the arbitrary imprisoning of tens of thousands
of women, children, and elderly people for months in conditions of
extreme deprivation, forced displacement of hundreds of thousands of
villagers after the demolition of their homes, and the wholesale
destruction of nearly two thousand villages along with their schools,
mosques, farms, and power stations.
* In April 1991, after Saddam lost control of Kuwait in the Gulf
War, he cracked down ruthlessly against uprisings in the Kurdish north
and the Shia south. His forces committed wholesale massacres and other
gross human rights violations against both groups similar to the
violations mentioned before. Estimates of deaths during that time
range from 40,000 to 100,000 for Kurds, and 60,000 to 130,000 for
Shi'ites.
According to officials of the United States State Department, many
human rights abuses in Saddam Hussein's Iraq were largely carried out
in person or by the orders of Saddam Hussein and eleven other people.
The term "Saddam's Dirty Dozen" was coined in October 2002 (from a
novel by E.M. Richardson, later adapted as a film directed by Robert
Aldrich) and used by US officials to describe this group. Most members
of the group held high positions in the Iraqi government and
membership went all the way from Saddam's personal guard to Saddam's
sons. The list was used by the Bush Administration to help argue that
the 2003 Iraq war was against Saddam Hussein and the Baath Party
leadership, rather than against the Iraqi people. The members are:
* Saddam Hussein, Iraqi President, accused of many torturings,
killings and of ordering the 1988 cleansing of Kurds in Northern Iraq.
* Qusay Hussein (1966 - 2003), son of the president, head of the
elite Republican Guard, believed to have been chosen by Saddam as his
successor.
* Uday Hussein (1964 - 2003), son of the president, accused of
having a private torture chamber and of the rapes and killings of many
women. He was partially paralyzed after a 1996 attempt on his life,
and was leader of the paramilitary group Fedayeen Saddam and of the
Iraqi media.
* Taha Yassin Ramadan, Vice-President. He oversaw the mass
killings of a Shi'a revolt in 1991, and he was born in Iraqi
Kurdistan.
* Tariq Aziz, Foreign Minister of Iraq, supposedly backed up the
executions by hanging of political opponents after the revolution of
1968.
* Barzan Ibrahim al-Tikriti, Hussein's half brother, leader of the
Iraqi secret service, Mukhabarat. He was Iraq's representative to the
United Nations in Geneva.
* Sabawi Ibrahim al-Tikriti, Hussein's half brother, he was the
leader of the Mukhabarat during the 1991 Gulf War. Director of Iraq's
general security from 1991 to 1996. He was involved in the 1991
suppresion of Kurds.
* Watban Ibrahim al-Tikriti, Hussein's half brother, former senior
Interior Minister who was also Saddam's presidencial adviser. Shot in
the leg by Uday Hussein in 1995. He has allegedly ordered tortures,
rapes, murders and deportations.
* Ali Hassan al-Majid, Chemical Ali, alleged mastermind behind
Saddam's lethal gassing of rebel Kurds in 1988. A first cousin of
Saddam Hussein;
* Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, military commander, vice-president of
the Revolutionary Command Council and deputy commander in chief of the
armed forces during various military campaigns.
* Aziz Saleh Nuhmah, appointed governor of Kuwait from November of
1990 to February of 1991, allegedly ordered looting of stores and
rapes of Kuwaiti women during his tenure. Also ordered the destruction
of Shi'a holy sites during the 1970s and 1980s as governor of two
Iraqi provinces.
* Mohammed Amza Zubeidi, alias Saddam's shi'a thug, Prime Minister
of Iraq from 1991 to 1993 - alleged to have ordered many executions.
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| Re: according to Richard Cohen's .. [message #1098488 ] |
Sat, 22 July 2006 21:47 |
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The Grand Beckoning wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 17:59:02 GMT, Charlie Board
> <charlieDIESPAMMERSboard [at] nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>The Grand Beckoning wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 03:13:33 GMT, Charlie Board
>>><charlieDIESPAMMERSboard [at] nc.rr.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>The Grand Beckoning wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Israel will tolerate a Palestinian state.
>>>>
>>>>No, they won't. There is no Palrestinian state
>>>>right now precisely because not only will Israel
>>>>not tolerate one but they will not (and never
>>>>will) allow one to exist. Even their most ardent
>>>>apologists often give that away when they say that
>>>>the Palestinians will never get an offer as generous
>>>>as the one they turned down in 2000 - an offer
>>>>that fell far, far short of allowing a Palestinan
>>>>state.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>You are misinformed. Both 1998 and 2006 offered just that--statehood.
>>
>>
>>No, I'm not. Neither offer came remotely close to offering
>>a sovereign state in any way shape or form.
>
>
> If you are so sure, then provide a cite.
>
Read the freakin thread - done in another post. BTW, you're
the one advancing the positive claim (namely, that Israel
offered a sovereign state). Therefore logically speaking the burden of
proof rests on you. So perhaps you'd like to list the things
that make a state sovereign and give us cites for each one
backing up your claim that Israel actually offered that.
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| Re: according to Richard Cohen's .. [message #1098495 ] |
Sat, 22 July 2006 22:09 |
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On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 19:47:52 GMT, Charlie Board
<charlieDIESPAMMERSboard [at] nc.rr.com> wrote:
>The Grand Beckoning wrote:
>> On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 17:59:02 GMT, Charlie Board
>> <charlieDIESPAMMERSboard [at] nc.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>>The Grand Beckoning wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 03:13:33 GMT, Charlie Board
>>>><charlieDIESPAMMERSboard [at] nc.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The Grand Beckoning wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Israel will tolerate a Palestinian state.
>>>>>
>>>>>No, they won't. There is no Palrestinian state
>>>>>right now precisely because not only will Israel
>>>>>not tolerate one but they will not (and never
>>>>>will) allow one to exist. Even their most ardent
>>>>>apologists often give that away when they say that
>>>>>the Palestinians will never get an offer as generous
>>>>>as the one they turned down in 2000 - an offer
>>>>>that fell far, far short of allowing a Palestinan
>>>>>state.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>You are misinformed. Both 1998 and 2006 offered just that--statehood.
>>>
>>>
>>>No, I'm not. Neither offer came remotely close to offering
>>>a sovereign state in any way shape or form.
>>
>>
>> If you are so sure, then provide a cite.
>>
>
>Read the freakin thread - done in another post. BTW, you're
>the one advancing the positive claim (namely, that Israel
>offered a sovereign state). Therefore logically speaking the burden of
>proof rests on you. So perhaps you'd like to list the things
>that make a state sovereign and give us cites for each one
>backing up your claim that Israel actually offered that.
>
This proves you are wrong.
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| Re: according to Richard Cohen's .. [message #1098536 ] |
Sun, 23 July 2006 03:15 |
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Minun olisi pitänyt tietää, olisi pitänyt tietää,
olisi pitänyt tietää KUKA SINÄ OLET, The Grand Beckoning:
> On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 17:31:18 -0000, rich hammett
> <bubbarichau [at] warmmail.com> wrote:
>>Minun olisi pitänyt tietää, olisi pitänyt tietää,
>>olisi pitänyt tietää KUKA SINÄ OLET, The Grand Beckoning:
>>> On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 15:16:13 -0000, rich hammett
>>> <bubbarichau [at] warmmail.com> wrote:
>>>>Minun olisi pitänyt tietää, olisi pitänyt tietää,
>>>>olisi pitänyt tietää KUKA SINÄ OLET, Tom Enright:
>>>>
>>>>> aborgman [at] redshark.goodshow.net wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Tom Enright <freddy_hayek [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> > The majority of Arabs in the Middle East support terrorism, at least
>>>>>> > if you believe the polls.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The Colonists did not engage in terrorism.
>>>>
>>>>>> They didn't? Lets hear the convoluted definition of terrorism
>>>>>> you come up with to justify that statement.
>>>>
>>>>> Not necessary. The Colonists did not target civilians.
>>>>
>>>>Dude. Your ignorance is bordering on pathetic, if it's not
>>>>malicious.
>>
>>> " You and your sad cohorts are in the sick position of actually having
>>> to exaggerate and twist statistics about how bad
>>> Saddam was, just so you can say BUT IT'S BETTER THAN
>>> UNDER SADDAM!!11!!!11!!"
>>
>>Yes, people other than Tom are ignorant. Some people think that
>>Saddam killed tens of thousands of Iraqis every year. Aren't
>>they stupid?
> No, you are:
Snorky, you have real problems. Your wholesale copyright
violations below support exactly what I've been arguing.
rich
> * In 1988, the Hussein regime began a campaign of extermination
> against the Kurdish people living in Northern Iraq. This is known as
> the Anfal campaign. The attacks resulted in the death of at least
> 50,000 (some reports estimate as many as 100,000 people), many of them
> women and children. A team of Human Rights Watch investigators
> determined, after analyzing eighteen tons of captured Iraqi documents,
> testing soil samples and carrying out interviews with more than 350
> witnesses, that the attacks on the Kurdish people were characterized
> by gross violations of human rights, including mass executions and
> disappearances of many tens of thousands of noncombatants, widespread
> use of chemical weapons including Sarin, mustard gas and nerve agents
> that killed thousands, the arbitrary imprisoning of tens of thousands
> of women, children, and elderly people for months in conditions of
> extreme deprivation, forced displacement of hundreds of thousands of
> villagers after the demolition of their homes, and the wholesale
> destruction of nearly two thousand villages along with their schools,
> mosques, farms, and power stations.
> * In April 1991, after Saddam lost control of Kuwait in the Gulf
> War, he cracked down ruthlessly against uprisings in the Kurdish north
> and the Shia south. His forces committed wholesale massacres and other
> gross human rights violations against both groups similar to the
> violations mentioned before. Estimates of deaths during that time
> range from 40,000 to 100,000 for Kurds, and 60,000 to 130,000 for
> Shi'ites.
> According to officials of the United States State Department, many
> human rights abuses in Saddam Hussein's Iraq were largely carried out
> in person or by the orders of Saddam Hussein and eleven other people.
> The term "Saddam's Dirty Dozen" was coined in October 2002 (from a
> novel by E.M. Richardson, later adapted as a film directed by Robert
> Aldrich) and used by US officials to describe this group. Most members
> of the group held high positions in the Iraqi government and
> membership went all the way from Saddam's personal guard to Saddam's
> sons. The list was used by the Bush Administration to help argue that
> the 2003 Iraq war was against Saddam Hussein and the Baath Party
> leadership, rather than against the Iraqi people. The members are:
> * Saddam Hussein, Iraqi President, accused of many torturings,
> killings and of ordering the 1988 cleansing of Kurds in Northern Iraq.
> * Qusay Hussein (1966 - 2003), son of the president, head of the
> elite Republican Guard, believed to have been chosen by Saddam as his
> successor.
> * Uday Hussein (1964 - 2003), son of the president, accused of
> having a private torture chamber and of the rapes and killings of many
> women. He was partially paralyzed after a 1996 attempt on his life,
> and was leader of the paramilitary group Fedayeen Saddam and of the
> Iraqi media.
> * Taha Yassin Ramadan, Vice-President. He oversaw the mass
> killings of a Shi'a revolt in 1991, and he was born in Iraqi
> Kurdistan.
> * Tariq Aziz, Foreign Minister of Iraq, supposedly backed up the
> executions by hanging of political opponents after the revolution of
> 1968.
> * Barzan Ibrahim al-Tikriti, Hussein's half brother, leader of the
> Iraqi secret service, Mukhabarat. He was Iraq's representative to the
> United Nations in Geneva.
> * Sabawi Ibrahim al-Tikriti, Hussein's half brother, he was the
> leader of the Mukhabarat during the 1991 Gulf War. Director of Iraq's
> general security from 1991 to 1996. He was involved in the 1991
> suppresion of Kurds.
> * Watban Ibrahim al-Tikriti, Hussein's half brother, former senior
> Interior Minister who was also Saddam's presidencial adviser. Shot in
> the leg by Uday Hussein in 1995. He has allegedly ordered tortures,
> rapes, murders and deportations.
> * Ali Hassan al-Majid, Chemical Ali, alleged mastermind behind
> Saddam's lethal gassing of rebel Kurds in 1988. A first cousin of
> Saddam Hussein;
> * Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, military commander, vice-president of
> the Revolutionary Command Council and deputy commander in chief of the
> armed forces during various military campaigns.
> * Aziz Saleh Nuhmah, appointed governor of Kuwait from November of
> 1990 to February of 1991, allegedly ordered looting of stores and
> rapes of Kuwaiti women during his tenure. Also ordered the destruction
> of Shi'a holy sites during the 1970s and 1980s as governor of two
> Iraqi provinces.
> * Mohammed Amza Zubeidi, alias Saddam's shi'a thug, Prime Minister
> of Iraq from 1991 to 1993 - alleged to have ordered many executions.
--
-to reply, it's hot not warm
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett
/ The Bill Clinton of RSFC
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| Re: according to Richard Cohen's .. [message #1098569 ] |
Sun, 23 July 2006 04:57 |
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On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 01:15:23 -0000, rich hammett
<bubbarichau [at] warmmail.com> wrote:
>Minun olisi pitänyt tietää, olisi pitänyt tietää,
>olisi pitänyt tietää KUKA SINÄ OLET, The Grand Beckoning:
>> On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 17:31:18 -0000, rich hammett
>> <bubbarichau [at] warmmail.com> wrote:
>>>Minun olisi pitänyt tietää, olisi pitänyt tietää,
>>>olisi pitänyt tietää KUKA SINÄ OLET, The Grand Beckoning:
>>>> On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 15:16:13 -0000, rich hammett
>>>> <bubbarichau [at] warmmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>Minun olisi pitänyt tietää, olisi pitänyt tietää,
>>>>>olisi pitänyt tietää KUKA SINÄ OLET, Tom Enright:
>>>>>
>>>>>> aborgman [at] redshark.goodshow.net wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom Enright <freddy_hayek [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> > The majority of Arabs in the Middle East support terrorism, at least
>>>>>>> > if you believe the polls.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > The Colonists did not engage in terrorism.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> They didn't? Lets hear the convoluted definition of terrorism
>>>>>>> you come up with to justify that statement.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Not necessary. The Colonists did not target civilians.
>>>>>
>>>>>Dude. Your ignorance is bordering on pathetic, if it's not
>>>>>malicious.
>>>
>>>> " You and your sad cohorts are in the sick position of actually having
>>>> to exaggerate and twist statistics about how bad
>>>> Saddam was, just so you can say BUT IT'S BETTER THAN
>>>> UNDER SADDAM!!11!!!11!!"
>>>
>>>Yes, people other than Tom are ignorant. Some people think that
>>>Saddam killed tens of thousands of Iraqis every year. Aren't
>>>they stupid?
>
>> No, you are:
>
>Snorky, you have real problems. Your wholesale copyright
>violations below support exactly what I've been arguing.
>
>rich
Bullshit. You get proven wrong and start backpeddling....again.
Pathetic.
>
>> * In 1988, the Hussein regime began a campaign of extermination
>> against the Kurdish people living in Northern Iraq. This is known as
>> the Anfal campaign. The attacks resulted in the death of at least
>> 50,000 (some reports estimate as many as 100,000 people), many of them
>> women and children. A team of Human Rights Watch investigators
>> determined, after analyzing eighteen tons of captured Iraqi documents,
>> testing soil samples and carrying out interviews with more than 350
>> witnesses, that the attacks on the Kurdish people were characterized
>> by gross violations of human rights, including mass executions and
>> disappearances of many tens of thousands of noncombatants, widespread
>> use of chemical weapons including Sarin, mustard gas and nerve agents
>> that killed thousands, the arbitrary imprisoning of tens of thousands
>> of women, children, and elderly people for months in conditions of
>> extreme deprivation, forced displacement of hundreds of thousands of
>> villagers after the demolition of their homes, and the wholesale
>> destruction of nearly two thousand villages along with their schools,
>> mosques, farms, and power stations.
>
>> * In April 1991, after Saddam lost control of Kuwait in the Gulf
>> War, he cracked down ruthlessly against uprisings in the Kurdish north
>> and the Shia south. His forces committed wholesale massacres and other
>> gross human rights violations against both groups similar to the
>> violations mentioned before. Estimates of deaths during that time
>> range from 40,000 to 100,000 for Kurds, and 60,000 to 130,000 for
>> Shi'ites.
>
>> According to officials of the United States State Department, many
>> human rights abuses in Saddam Hussein's Iraq were largely carried out
>> in person or by the orders of Saddam Hussein and eleven other people.
>> The term "Saddam's Dirty Dozen" was coined in October 2002 (from a
>> novel by E.M. Richardson, later adapted as a film directed by Robert
>> Aldrich) and used by US officials to describe this group. Most members
>> of the group held high positions in the Iraqi government and
>> membership went all the way from Saddam's personal guard to Saddam's
>> sons. The list was used by the Bush Administration to help argue that
>> the 2003 Iraq war was against Saddam Hussein and the Baath Party
>> leadership, rather than against the Iraqi people. The members are:
>
>> * Saddam Hussein, Iraqi President, accused of many torturings,
>> killings and of ordering the 1988 cleansing of Kurds in Northern Iraq.
>> * Qusay Hussein (1966 - 2003), son of the president, head of the
>> elite Republican Guard, believed to have been chosen by Saddam as his
>> successor.
>> * Uday Hussein (1964 - 2003), son of the president, accused of
>> having a private torture chamber and of the rapes and killings of many
>> women. He was partially paralyzed after a 1996 attempt on his life,
>> and was leader of the paramilitary group Fedayeen Saddam and of the
>> Iraqi media.
>> * Taha Yassin Ramadan, Vice-President. He oversaw the mass
>> killings of a Shi'a revolt in 1991, and he was born in Iraqi
>> Kurdistan.
>> * Tariq Aziz, Foreign Minister of Iraq, supposedly backed up the
>> executions by hanging of political opponents after the revolution of
>> 1968.
>> * Barzan Ibrahim al-Tikriti, Hussein's half brother, leader of the
>> Iraqi secret service, Mukhabarat. He was Iraq's representative to the
>> United Nations in Geneva.
>> * Sabawi Ibrahim al-Tikriti, Hussein's half brother, he was the
>> leader of the Mukhabarat during the 1991 Gulf War. Director of Iraq's
>> general security from 1991 to 1996. He was involved in the 1991
>> suppresion of Kurds.
>> * Watban Ibrahim al-Tikriti, Hussein's half brother, former senior
>> Interior Minister who was also Saddam's presidencial adviser. Shot in
>> the leg by Uday Hussein in 1995. He has allegedly ordered tortures,
>> rapes, murders and deportations.
>> * Ali Hassan al-Majid, Chemical Ali, alleged mastermind behind
>> Saddam's lethal gassing of rebel Kurds in 1988. A first cousin of
>> Saddam Hussein;
>> * Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, military commander, vice-president of
>> the Revolutionary Command Council and deputy commander in chief of the
>> armed forces during various military campaigns.
>> * Aziz Saleh Nuhmah, appointed governor of Kuwait from November of
>> 1990 to February of 1991, allegedly ordered looting of stores and
>> rapes of Kuwaiti women during his tenure. Also ordered the destruction
>> of Shi'a holy sites during the 1970s and 1980s as governor of two
>> Iraqi provinces.
>> * Mohammed Amza Zubeidi, alias Saddam's shi'a thug, Prime Minister
>> of Iraq from 1991 to 1993 - alleged to have ordered many executions.
|
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| Re: according to Richard Cohen's .. [message #1098628 ] |
Sun, 23 July 2006 17:02 |
|
Minun olisi pitänyt tietää, olisi pitänyt tietää,
olisi pitänyt tietää KUKA SINÄ OLET, The Grand Beckoning:
> On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 01:15:23 -0000, rich hammett
> <bubbarichau [at] warmmail.com> wrote:
>>Minun olisi pitänyt tietää, olisi pitänyt tietää,
>>olisi pitänyt tietää KUKA SINÄ OLET, The Grand Beckoning:
>>> On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 17:31:18 -0000, rich hammett
>>> <bubbarichau [at] warmmail.com> wrote:
>>>>Minun olisi pitänyt tietää, olisi pitänyt tietää,
>>>>olisi pitänyt tietää KUKA SINÄ OLET, The Grand Beckoning:
>>>>> On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 15:16:13 -0000, rich hammett
>>>>> <bubbarichau [at] warmmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>Minun olisi pitänyt tietää, olisi pitänyt tietää,
>>>>>>olisi pitänyt tietää KUKA SINÄ OLET, Tom Enright:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> aborgman [at] redshark.goodshow.net wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tom Enright <freddy_hayek [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > The majority of Arabs in the Middle East support terrorism, at least
>>>>>>>> > if you believe the polls.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > The Colonists did not engage in terrorism.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They didn't? Lets hear the convoluted definition of terrorism
>>>>>>>> you come up with to justify that statement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not necessary. The Colonists did not target civilians.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Dude. Your ignorance is bordering on pathetic, if it's not
>>>>>>malicious.
>>>>
>>>>> " You and your sad cohorts are in the sick position of actually having
>>>>> to exaggerate and twist statistics about how bad
>>>>> Saddam was, just so you can say BUT IT'S BETTER THAN
>>>>> UNDER SADDAM!!11!!!11!!"
>>>>
>>>>Yes, people other than Tom are ignorant. Some people think that
>>>>Saddam killed tens of thousands of Iraqis every year. Aren't
>>>>they stupid?
>>
>>> No, you are:
>>
>>Snorky, you have real problems. Your wholesale copyright
>>violations below support exactly what I've been arguing.
> Bullshit. You get proven wrong and start backpeddling....again.
> Pathetic.
C'mon, smart guy, what have I "backpeddled" on? I've only argued
two related points in these threads, and your article supports
both of them.
rich
>>
>>> * In 1988, the Hussein regime began a campaign of extermination
>>> against the Kurdish people living in Northern Iraq. This is known as
>>> the Anfal campaign. The attacks resulted in the death of at least
>>> 50,000 (some reports estimate as many as 100,000 people), many of them
>>> women and children. A team of Human Rights Watch investigators
>>> determined, after analyzing eighteen tons of captured Iraqi documents,
>>> testing soil samples and carrying out interviews with more than 350
>>> witnesses, that the attacks on the Kurdish people were characterized
>>> by gross violations of human rights, including mass executions and
>>> disappearances of many tens of thousands of noncombatants, widespread
>>> use of chemical weapons including Sarin, mustard gas and nerve agents
>>> that killed thousands, the arbitrary imprisoning of tens of thousands
>>> of women, children, and elderly people for months in conditions of
>>> extreme deprivation, forced displacement of hundreds of thousands of
>>> villagers after the demolition of their homes, and the wholesale
>>> destruction of nearly two thousand villages along with their schools,
>>> mosques, farms, and power stations.
>>
>>> * In April 1991, after Saddam lost control of Kuwait in the Gulf
>>> War, he cracked down ruthlessly against uprisings in the Kurdish north
>>> and the Shia south. His forces committed wholesale massacres and other
>>> gross human rights violations against both groups similar to the
>>> violations mentioned before. Estimates of deaths during that time
>>> range from 40,000 to 100,000 for Kurds, and 60,000 to 130,000 for
>>> Shi'ites.
>>
>>> According to officials of the United States State Department, many
>>> human rights abuses in Saddam Hussein's Iraq were largely carried out
>>> in person or by the orders of Saddam Hussein and eleven other people.
>>> The term "Saddam's Dirty Dozen" was coined in October 2002 (from a
>>> novel by E.M. Richardson, later adapted as a film directed by Robert
>>> Aldrich) and used by US officials to describe this group. Most members
>>> of the group held high positions in the Iraqi government and
>>> membership went all the way from Saddam's personal guard to Saddam's
>>> sons. The list was used by the Bush Administration to help argue that
>>> the 2003 Iraq war was against Saddam Hussein and the Baath Party
>>> leadership, rather than against the Iraqi people. The members are:
>>
>>> * Saddam Hussein, Iraqi President, accused of many torturings,
>>> killings and of ordering the 1988 cleansing of Kurds in Northern Iraq.
>>> * Qusay Hussein (1966 - 2003), son of the president, head of the
>>> elite Republican Guard, believed to have been chosen by Saddam as his
>>> successor.
>>> * Uday Hussein (1964 - 2003), son of the president, accused of
>>> having a private torture chamber and of the rapes and killings of many
>>> women. He was partially paralyzed after a 1996 attempt on his life,
>>> and was leader of the paramilitary group Fedayeen Saddam and of the
>>> Iraqi media.
>>> * Taha Yassin Ramadan, Vice-President. He oversaw the mass
>>> killings of a Shi'a revolt in 1991, and he was born in Iraqi
>>> Kurdistan.
>>> * Tariq Aziz, Foreign Minister of Iraq, supposedly backed up the
>>> executions by hanging of political opponents after the revolution of
>>> 1968.
>>> * Barzan Ibrahim al-Tikriti, Hussein's half brother, leader of the
>>> Iraqi secret service, Mukhabarat. He was Iraq's representative to the
>>> United Nations in Geneva.
>>> * Sabawi Ibrahim al-Tikriti, Hussein's half brother, he was the
>>> leader of the Mukhabarat during the 1991 Gulf War. Director of Iraq's
>>> general security from 1991 to 1996. He was involved in the 1991
>>> suppresion of Kurds.
>>> * Watban Ibrahim al-Tikriti, Hussein's half brother, former senior
>>> Interior Minister who was also Saddam's presidencial adviser. Shot in
>>> the leg by Uday Hussein in 1995. He has allegedly ordered tortures,
>>> rapes, murders and deportations.
>>> * Ali Hassan al-Majid, Chemical Ali, alleged mastermind behind
>>> Saddam's lethal gassing of rebel Kurds in 1988. A first cousin of
>>> Saddam Hussein;
>>> * Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, military commander, vice-president of
>>> the Revolutionary Command Council and deputy commander in chief of the
>>> armed forces during various military campaigns.
>>> * Aziz Saleh Nuhmah, appointed governor of Kuwait from November of
>>> 1990 to February of 1991, allegedly ordered looting of stores and
>>> rapes of Kuwaiti women during his tenure. Also ordered the destruction
>>> of Shi'a holy sites during the 1970s and 1980s as governor of two
>>> Iraqi provinces.
>>> * Mohammed Amza Zubeidi, alias Saddam's shi'a thug, Prime Minister
>>> of Iraq from 1991 to 1993 - alleged to have ordered many executions.
--
-to reply, it's hot not warm
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett
/ The Bill Clinton of RSFC
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| Re: according to Richard Cohen's .. [message #1098669 ] |
Sun, 23 July 2006 19:30 |
|
The Grand Beckoning wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 19:47:52 GMT, Charlie Board
> <charlieDIESPAMMERSboard [at] nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>The Grand Beckoning wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 17:59:02 GMT, Charlie Board
>>><charlieDIESPAMMERSboard [at] nc.rr.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>The Grand Beckoning wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 03:13:33 GMT, Charlie Board
>>>>><charlieDIESPAMMERSboard [at] nc.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>The Grand Beckoning wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Israel will tolerate a Palestinian state.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>No, they won't. There is no Palrestinian state
>>>>>>right now precisely because not only will Israel
>>>>>>not tolerate one but they will not (and never
>>>>>>will) allow one to exist. Even their most ardent
>>>>>>apologists often give that away when they say that
>>>>>>the Palestinians will never get an offer as generous
>>>>>>as the one they turned down in 2000 - an offer
>>>>>>that fell far, far short of allowing a Palestinan
>>>>>>state.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>You are misinformed. Both 1998 and 2006 offered just that--statehood.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>No, I'm not. Neither offer came remotely close to offering
>>>>a sovereign state in any way shape or form.
>>>
>>>
>>>If you are so sure, then provide a cite.
>>>
>>
>>Read the freakin thread - done in another post. BTW, you're
>>the one advancing the positive claim (namely, that Israel
>>offered a sovereign state). Therefore logically speaking the burden of
>>proof rests on you. So perhaps you'd like to list the things
>>that make a state sovereign and give us cites for each one
>>backing up your claim that Israel actually offered that.
>>
>
>
> This proves you are wrong.
>
The fact that *you* can't back up your claim proves *I'm*
wrong? Damn you're dumb.
|
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| Re: according to Richard Cohen's .. [message #1098673 ] |
Sun, 23 July 2006 19:44 |
|
On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 17:30:01 GMT, Charlie Board
<charlieDIESPAMMERSboard [at] nc.rr.com> wrote:
>The Grand Beckoning wrote:
>> On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 19:47:52 GMT, Charlie Board
>> <charlieDIESPAMMERSboard [at] nc.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>>The Grand Beckoning wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 17:59:02 GMT, Charlie Board
>>>><charlieDIESPAMMERSboard [at] nc.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The Grand Beckoning wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 03:13:33 GMT, Charlie Board
>>>>>><charlieDIESPAMMERSboard [at] nc.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The Grand Beckoning wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Israel will tolerate a Palestinian state.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>No, they won't. There is no Palrestinian state
>>>>>>>right now precisely because not only will Israel
>>>>>>>not tolerate one but they will not (and never
>>>>>>>will) allow one to exist. Even their most ardent
>>>>>>>apologists often give that away when they say that
>>>>>>>the Palestinians will never get an offer as generous
>>>>>>>as the one they turned down in 2000 - an offer
>>>>>>>that fell far, far short of allowing a Palestinan
>>>>>>>state.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You are misinformed. Both 1998 and 2006 offered just that--statehood.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>No, I'm not. Neither offer came remotely close to offering
>>>>>a sovereign state in any way shape or form.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>If you are so sure, then provide a cite.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Read the freakin thread - done in another post. BTW, you're
>>>the one advancing the positive claim (namely, that Israel
>>>offered a sovereign state). Therefore logically speaking the burden of
>>>proof rests on you. So perhaps you'd like to list the things
>>>that make a state sovereign and give us cites for each one
>>>backing up your claim that Israel actually offered that.
>>>
>>
>>
>> This proves you are wrong.
>>
>
>The fact that *you* can't back up your claim proves *I'm*
>wrong? Damn you're dumb.
>
The fact that *you* can't back up your claim proves *I'm*
wrong? Damn you're dumb.
|
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| Re: according to Richard Cohen's .. [message #1098674 ] |
Sun, 23 July 2006 19:43 |
|
On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 15:02:45 -0000, rich hammett
<bubbarichau [at] warmmail.com> wrote:
>Minun olisi pitänyt tietää, olisi pitänyt tietää,
>olisi pitänyt tietää KUKA SINÄ OLET, The Grand Beckoning:
>> On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 01:15:23 -0000, rich hammett
>> <bubbarichau [at] warmmail.com> wrote:
>>>Minun olisi pitänyt tietää, olisi pitänyt tietää,
>>>olisi pitänyt tietää KUKA SINÄ OLET, The Grand Beckoning:
>>>> On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 17:31:18 -0000, rich hammett
>>>> <bubbarichau [at] warmmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>Minun olisi pitänyt tietää, olisi pitänyt tietää,
>>>>>olisi pitänyt tietää KUKA SINÄ OLET, The Grand Beckoning:
>>>>>> On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 15:16:13 -0000, rich hammett
>>>>>> <bubbarichau [at] warmmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>Minun olisi pitänyt tietää, olisi pitänyt tietää,
>>>>>>>olisi pitänyt tietää KUKA SINÄ OLET, Tom Enright:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> aborgman [at] redshark.goodshow.net wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tom Enright <freddy_hayek [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> > The majority of Arabs in the Middle East support terrorism, at least
>>>>>>>>> > if you believe the polls.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > The Colonists did not engage in terrorism.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They didn't? Lets hear the convoluted definition of terrorism
>>>>>>>>> you come up with to justify that statement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not necessary. The Colonists did not target civilians.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Dude. Your ignorance is bordering on pathetic, if it's not
>>>>>>>malicious.
>>>>>
>>>>>> " You and your sad cohorts are in the sick position of actually having
>>>>>> to exaggerate and twist statistics about how bad
>>>>>> Saddam was, just so you can say BUT IT'S BETTER THAN
>>>>>> UNDER SADDAM!!11!!!11!!"
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes, people other than Tom are ignorant. Some people think that
>>>>>Saddam killed tens of thousands of Iraqis every year. Aren't
>>>>>they stupid?
>>>
>>>> No, you are:
>>>
>>>Snorky, you have real problems. Your wholesale copyright
>>>violations below support exactly what I've been arguing.
>
>> Bullshit. You get proven wrong and start backpeddling....again.
>> Pathetic.
>
>C'mon, smart guy, what have I "backpeddled" on? I've only argued
>two related points in these threads, and your article supports
>both of them.
>
>rich
Your efforts to try and make Saddam look good are just pathetic.
" You and your sad cohorts are in the sick position of actually having
to exaggerate and twist statistics about how bad
Saddam was, just so you can say BUT IT'S BETTER THAN
UNDER SADDAM!!11!!!11!!"
That, smart guy, is just desperate lunacy. I know you don't like
those little browish people, but they sure do deserve better than what
you would will upon them. And all of that just so you won't have to
admit you are wrong.
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